I think it is very difficult to reson with an Ole in fan, they will always find a reason of shortcomings. They work hard day and night in this forum to find excuses just like Ole. I find it sad that they waste their energy on that. You are football fans of one of the biggest clubs in the world. For few years ago arguably the biggest club in the world, accepting mediocrity is a diseases started with the managers but gradually infecting the fan base. It is very sad to see the transformation in the clubs shape both inside and out. Clubs like Munich, Real and Barcelona will never go in a period like ours, because they dont feck with mediocrity. FFS Zidan was under the fans swords despite the fact him winning 3 CL and 2 league titles. That is why good managers at these clubs will always be at their toes and will deliver and bad managers will crack directly. While Ole is in heaven because he is at a club that he can be mediocre for a long period of time and collect as much money he can tills the fans and the board get enough of his lame excuses. I know it is just the beginning of the season, but ffs sack he has been in charge literally 2 years and had all the time in the world to implement good style of football, we still play like a mid table team (defensive against very good teams and clueless against mid table teams). Everybody talking about us improving and closing the gap with city and Liverpool, but ffs they do not look good at all and they themselves are going down to our level. Instead of pushing for the title we will be seeing fans celebrating a 3rd or 4th position.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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That is something you would say if you are a footballing person. Most of the fans on here want are Ole our win, lose, draw. They want us to fail to say, "I told you Ole isn't good enough". Alot of United supporters do not actually support the team right now.
We conceded 9 goals in 2 games at home, the so called attacking team that we put out this season has scored 5 goals. The defensive set up has got us 6 goals and conceded 2 in 3 games.
The games we have played Pogba, Greenwood, Martial, Rashford, Bruno we looked like conceding on every attack, since then we have looked alot more secure at the back.
Imagine we went at Chelsea and got picked on the counter attack to lose 2-0?
What fans need to realise is they have put the pressure on Ole to an extent, the fans have pushed him back into a corner. If he loses Ole out is in force, if we draw they are out, If we win they are out because they want to see their favourite players start.
Do you really believe that? If you believe that then there is nothing left to discuss. Do you think people here come and spend hours talking and reasoning to defend a stupid narrative? what all fans need (Ole out and In fans) is the club to be successful.
Whatever your definition is or whatever you want to call it park the bus, park the car, park your bike, one thing for sure is that Chelsea park something between the box and midfield circle just like how we did it against Liverpool in 17/18. So the point to the argument still stands that our team was always be forced to play passive by Lampard’s defensive approach just like how Jose forced Liverpool's Klopp to play passive.
Debate has been closed until you tag me in someone else conversation so you need to learn how to move on and stop drag me into it. I wasn’t the only one who said you are wrong. This post from fatherwolff basically sums it up and conclude this debate.
Damn, it just happened. This thread has officially crossed the line from 'frustrating' to 'pure comedy'. I had the same feeling about 10 years ago with online newspaper comments. The difference being that I've never actually made a comment under a newspaper article, as I quickly discovered the insanity(and that the majority are right wing, for whatever reason).
You can't reason with agenda-driven posters who'll grab onto anything to "strengthen" their case. We ran over Newcastle and PSG and then had a draw against our main rivals where we were the better team. The result: 400-500(?) posts in this thread in just a few days. That's just how things work in here. The same old posters gleefully jumped back in here the moment we had a rough patch that lasted 1 month, after having a good last season(in context).
I admire the posters who still bother to defend Ole. Just like with online newspaper articles, your reasonable opinions will have no power in this thread. Sooner or later you will probably lose patience too(understandably). At that stage, this thread will be an echo chamber, which is probably for the better anyways.
Peace!
You can't reason with agenda-driven posters who'll grab onto anything to "strengthen" their case. We ran over Newcastle and PSG and then had a draw against our main rivals where we were the better team. The result: 400-500(?) posts in this thread in just a few days. That's just how things work in here. The same old posters gleefully jumped back in here the moment we had a rough patch that lasted 1 month, after having a good last season(in context).
I admire the posters who still bother to defend Ole. Just like with online newspaper articles, your reasonable opinions will have no power in this thread. Sooner or later you will probably lose patience too(understandably). At that stage, this thread will be an echo chamber, which is probably for the better anyways.
Peace!
This has been done to the death. Don't bother. Save your energy on better things in life. Our spineless owners have settled for mediocrity. A lot of our supporters have too. Sad, but it's the truth. Let's just not turn on each other like warring factions. But that is also happening now I guess.
Not all, there are large portions on youtube channels, twitter etc.
I have seen people complain about the line up against Newcastle, PSG and Chelsea. We got 2 wins and a draw.
Why is Donny not playing, why is Pogba not playing, Why is Telles not playing. It's always about the players not playing, even after a win.
Yes, I get that Donny needs to be playing but some fans are making it out as if he is a WC player. He isnt and he can only play in the 10 role at the moment.
The amount of fan pressure to get results, Ole is not going to trial a new player when he knows Bruno performs in the 10.
We did just that this past week, tbf. The difference is, we played Chelsea and the rest played other inferior teams. Ole made a mistake with the lineup but even so, the performance was nowhere near being as concerning as what this thread is making out, and the result wasn't a bad one at all in the grand scheme of things.
The only frustration is that the game was there for the taking and should have been taken but considering that most of Ole's detractors were saying he'd be sacked after Saturday and that we'd have lost at least one of the games this week, on the whole it's been a positive week for us.
I mean, if it was just us I'd say yeah that's a more than fair assumption to make but it really isn't. Only 2 of the teams who played in Europe won their PL games this week. Barca lost the Clasico at home to a Real team who were a laughing stock against Shakhtar 3 days prior and Juve drew their game this week.
The reality is, is that something is up with the consistency of the teams around us and in this unprecedented season it isn't hard to find the causation.
Why are you still going on? He's not going to agree to what you're saying anyways.
34% of the game was played in Chelsea's defensive third. (https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...er-League-2020-2021-Manchester-United-Chelsea). For reference, LAst season, only City managed to play more in opposition third at 36%(https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...amStatistics/England-Premier-League-2019-2020)
Look at average positions - They had 3 players whose average position was in attacking half compared 5 of our players, but apparantly, he wanted us to expose our backline so that Werner and Pulisic can hit us on the counter
I didn't call it anything - you called it park the bus, which is a pile of royal bullshit. I told you many times to leave it be but your best point is quoting another poster who is misinterpreting the statistics - go on the link and refer to the positional report. Chelsea are bunching out the midfield, sure, this is expected in a 352. But that is not parking the bus. Parking the bus is to set up shop and defend extremely deep, which Chelsea didn't do. In fact they had two patches of pro-longed possession, where one 15 minute example had 0% of the ball in their final third. This happened at different points in the game before they lost control in the final quarter of the game.
Again this is an issue of trying to summarize phases of a game in a single snapshot, only limited viewers would refer to statistics in isolation to try and drive a point home. As I said, no one worth their salt has even implied Chelsea parked the bus. The fact that you have deflected all my points to this ridiculous notion of how Chelsea played shows you are reduced to very little, so yes, this is where we move on. Case closed. Don't bother quoting because I won't reply now.
That doesn't mean Chelsea parked the bus. It means we attacked more than they did but I was never denying this.
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...er-League-2020-2021-Manchester-United-Chelsea
^ Positional report section > Player report tab. That is not how a team parking the bus is set up. 45% of the game was a midfield battle - that does not happen when a team parks the fecking bus the whole game. What happened was stretches and patches of game where they had control and where we had control (up to around 65 minutes where we took over). Again, only idiots would look at a snapshot in isolation and infer things like "oh they must have parked the bus". We all saw the game.
It’s like talking to wall. Even with multiple people disagree with him and telling him he’s wrong but he is still persistent to his idealism like he thinks the world must obey to him. And the worst part is he still can’t move on.Oh and your reference is spot on there.
«To explain what parking the bus means in football to a layman, one can say that it is a sort of style wherein the team gets ultra-defensive and propagates keeping possession of the ball more than trying to widen the areas and build offensively. In this style of play, central defenders and central midfielders play a huge role as they determine where the ball is going to go after possession has been snatched back from the opposition.»
Football tactics explained:
https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/foo...m&utm_medium=native&utm_campaign=ShareArticle
And from the game, Chelsea were not playing "ultra defensively". They were blunt in the final 3rd, but they were certainly not ultra defensive. In fact for the first 45 minutes, both teams were fecking about and not trying too hard to attack - it was pointed out by everyone. I guess we were parking the bus too? No, of course we weren't. Neither side was parking the bus, so stop claiming they were.
As I already said, we started well, then Chelsea had a strong patch of domination, then we did. Then we battled for control into the 2nd half, as we got the upper hand for the final quarter of the game. There was no parking of a bus.
Amen, and we will continue to have resuls like these as, imo, he is nowhere good enough to manag a top team. Some fans talk to give him a chances like he has been at the helm for just 3 month when in reality it has now been almost 2 years !!
It's all an excuse for any manager to use when they didn't win. Yes I know we didn't lose as I watched the match. Lampard stated they should have won as the Maguire hold should have been a penalty. See another excuse used by a manager to deflect why they didn't win.
My 1st post in a very long time....i believe....anyway, i in the 'Ole in' camp....
It is a double-edged sword with some fans, pundits and even ex-players (from Utd or not)...
If Utd play inferior team and loses, they will ask for Ole's head....if Utd wins, they will say, it is the least expected from Utd.
If Utd plays a similar level or better team and wins, the same people will either say the players did well (a few will say Ole did well) or will say, they will reserve their judgement of Ole....if Utd loses, they will again ask for Ole's head.....
If Ole didnt pick VDB, they will also ask for Ole's head...if he had picked VDB and loses against Chelsea, likely the same people will ask why he throw VDB in for his debut EPL game against Chelsea...problem is, who among them can explain how Ole is to play VDB against Chelsea i.e who should be dropped from the team that beat Newcastle and had the same people raving? and in which position?
It just seems that Ole cannot win them over even though we can definitely see improvements in the way the team plays...even Van Gaal and Mou (renown managers) sets the team to bore us during their tenure at Utd...and this happened most games....
I believe, for them, they need to see Ole lead Utd to win either the Carabao, FA Cup or even get 2nd in the league...dare we dream of Champions League?
I think changing of managers now will not help...it just means more chopping of players and more years to rebuild again....so, in Ole i trust.
Excuses, fine margins, call it what you want. The fact of the matter is that their goalkeeper kept them in the game and whenever Dave has been our best player this place has disappeared up its own arsehole with contempt for anyone and everything because “a goalkeeper at a team like Manchester United should never be man of the match”.
But yeah sure, Ole’s an embarrassment for defending his players to the media because it made you cringe because you care way too much what opposition fans think of our manager.
I 100% agree. For some people it seems to be some sort of warped principle that they will not give the manager any credit, or if they do, it's in circumstances where not to do so, would be ridiculous.
Considering the board/owners are parasites we are doing ok. Not bad. Of course we need to go on a run to rebuild momentum. You see how fragile many are with our signings not playing. What happened to being patient? Having common sense? Because I tell you, many people lack many things and they're shameful. So who do we blame? Ole? The board? We know who we wanted. If we got them then you can blame Ole but we're stabilising. We need to build on recent results. Sir Alex needed how many years to create his own team? And how many people wanted him gone? Sometimes you have to show trust. Sometimes you have to humble yourselves. And sometimes, if you want to blame people? Blame the right people.
Now against Chelsea I think we could have picked a stronger team BUT Ole has to manage the season and the players. Ole can turn round and say to Ed....see James? He cost us how much? What good is it, if he cannot produce? But at some point, you have to rely on these players.... A manager don't earn respect or create harmony by pointing to players and saying you're crap and you're crap. We just have to be less reactionary. if we cannot listen to people without 'reacting' in extreme ways, then we're unable to listen full stop. So many need to grow up and give Ole some respect. These are unprecedented times. If you want to judge anyone? Judge yourselves or develop the ability to think and be rational.
Now against Chelsea I think we could have picked a stronger team BUT Ole has to manage the season and the players. Ole can turn round and say to Ed....see James? He cost us how much? What good is it, if he cannot produce? But at some point, you have to rely on these players.... A manager don't earn respect or create harmony by pointing to players and saying you're crap and you're crap. We just have to be less reactionary. if we cannot listen to people without 'reacting' in extreme ways, then we're unable to listen full stop. So many need to grow up and give Ole some respect. These are unprecedented times. If you want to judge anyone? Judge yourselves or develop the ability to think and be rational.
Re the crowds point, can we just accept we haven't been good enough whether you want Ole in or out? Every single PL club has the crowd issue. Let's also not kid ourselves to think OT has some magical atmosphere that other PL don't have, if anything we are criticised for not having the best atmosphere so, if anything, it would affect us less than other teams.
This is where we are currently at in the PL: Home L, Away W, Home L, Away W, Home D. It's the definition of midtable form - 7 from 15. Yes the PL is all over the place this season and so we shouldn't rush to conculsions but simply by analysing what we are seeing on the pitch - it's completely fair to be asking serious questions of Ole.
I don't think it is. We have very valid points to why Solskjaer is doing right things. When we say that it doesn't mean he is flawless. It is that we see progress under him and his staff.
You say club like Bayern Munchen, Real Madrid and Barcelona would never go through a period like we. That is correct. One thing is that they dominate everything in their country. From sponsors and tv-money to politics. Even higher up in government. Our league and those leagues are not the same. Not even close in terms of equality. Madrid have also won 3 league titles last 13 years. Credit to them winning couple of Champions League titles. They have in that period of time had 9 managers. You think that is something to follow? A club that can also fire managers winning titles without any good reason, more then politics?
Reading your posts you seem to be someone with very little patience and if you were director you would be sacking managers every 3 months depending on if we lead league or not.
Newsflash. All teams are having results like these.
Remember Utd Pool 0-0 in Mou's 2nd season, where we parked the bus?
Guess, that was also not parking the bus by your definition as 44% of the game was a midfield battle : https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...-League-2017-2018-Liverpool-Manchester-United
Hell, in that game, 4 of our players had their average position in the opposition half compared to 3 for Chelsea on Saturday. Look at the heatmap, you won't find a red spot running across just outside the final third.
No one's saying they didn't attack at all - that's not what parking the bus even means. All we're saying is that they played an ultra-safe form of football where they pretty much always had 4-6 on defensive duties and just 2 players on attacking duty
But hasn't football always been like that? Every other year all of the top teams have most of their squad playing in the Euros or world Cup with roughly the same amount of time to prepare for the season as they've had this season and that's without the benefit of having a 2-3 month layoff due to covid just a short time ago.
It's true there's been some strange results notably ourselves, pool, City and Bayern but could it be something as simple as a blip? Liverpool aren't looking as sharp but that could be they've lost a bit of hunger after finally winning the PL, City look burnt out in general under Pep and have done so since before Covid and maybe with ourselves, Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs it's because we/they have mediocre managers?
The rest of Europe seem to have got their act together. Bayern are sitting at the top of their league, same as PSG, the Barca capitulation can't be blamed on fatigue, Zidane always has rocky periods at Madrid and the only other giant that isn't playing to their normal standards are Juve but after only bringing in their new manager a few months ago it's understandable.
It's quite easy to maintain squad freshness when teams have a good squad which we now do. Martial will come back fresh after his PL ban so that could give Rashford a rest with Cavani playing up top. Pogbas fitness isn't an issue because he hardly plays, give Bruno a rest by bringing in DVB. Mata and Greenwood can rotate on the right. Rotate McT, Fred and Matic for 2 positions. We now have Telles to give Shaw a rest. If AWB needs a rest then play Williams. We have 3 decent CBs in Maquire, Tuanzebe and Lindelof and even Bailly at a push for 2 positions so if the squad does suffer from burn out then that's on Ole because he has quality players to make 2 strong teams.
Again this points to the lunacy of using isolated stats to try and summarise the game.
The phases of play from United V Liverpool was in no way akin to United V Chelsea. Both sides were equally cautious for the opening 45 minutes of Saturday. It was touched upon by all, in the match day thread and in the half time analysis. Both teams were playing with fear, and Chelsea in fact had periods where they were dominating the game with 0% in their own third, before the balance shifted for the following 15 minutes in our favour. Phases of play during the game do not point in any way toward Chelsea parking the bus. The idea that this happened is stupid, Chelsea were not "ultra defensive".
Again, the fallacy of looking at isolated stats strikes.
I don't know how this is being disputed. The pundits literally spent the entire time discussing how both sides played with fear. The twisting of logic and stats again has been horrendous this week.
I said that previously. We didn’t do enough to win the game. We all know about the pre season so early season form shouldn’t be judged as harshly as previous seasons.
The response was to a poster who stated that Ole’s excuses were embarrassing and I simply said he has a point if you look at the data
Exactly. For 45 minutes both sides were ridiculously passive. For some periods Chelsea even dominated in phases of the half.
And yet there is a crazy insinuation that Chelsea are ultra defensive and parked in the bus. Madness, and I actually wish these posters would move on.
In the first half up until around the 35 minute mark, Neville repeated again-and-again that 'Chelsea' had been the better side. I mean 'better' in the context of things means feck all but nevertheless, it dispels the fallacy about Chelsea 'parking the bus'.
He gets no credit for his wins and people want to sack him when he loses.
Not many teams go to PSG and win. These draws are no good for the caf because if you're posting at ALL on a forum it's because you feel strongly about something and a draw just leaves you feeling strongly about what you already thought. I get the impression that Ole winning the title wouldn't be enough for some posters at this point.
No one's saying either of the sides was fearless. Hell, the 1st half was boring till atleast the Mendy feck-up. But you need to realize that if a big side plays that way, the other side can't bring all the men forward as it opens you up for counters. Your point was that they couldn't have parked the bus as 45% of the game was in middle third. That argument is being questioned, as per the example I posted.
The 2nd half was all us. No one's disputing whether it was a boring game or not, but the reason it became boring was one of the sides decided to play extra cautiously rather than anything else
Firstly, is it so hard to use paragraphs this is ridiculous.
Secondly, absolutely nobody supports Ole because they are happy with 6th> 3rd, they support him because they believe he is building something for the future.
It's fine to disagree on whether or not that is true, but to claim those fans are just accepting mediocrity is not right. You can make your case for Ole being sacked without insulting your fellow fans, you know.
Think you may need to have a word with some of Ole's top fans about insulting contrasting opinions.
Spoiler: It won't. We'd be saying how in previous seasons teams have needed 95+ points to win the league, how VVD was injured and how City have been dogged by injuries.
if they can use paragraphs I'll just let it slide
I wouldn't say Chelsea parked the bus in the traditional sense - 11 men behind with no intent to attack whatsoever - but they did prioritise defence, only venturing forward when the opportunity presented itself rather than going out of their way to create openings. Lamps intentionally flooded the midfield area to stifle the threat of Bruno (and/or Pogba if he played) making an open game a near-impossibility.
Ole only added to the congestion by picking Mctominay and Fred to counter Jorginho and Kante. Why? We didn't need two DM's. Bruno found himself isolated in the CAM area and was ineffective because of the system. Ole should have identified the problem and acted accordingly. But he didn't. My faith in his tactical ability dwindled a little after the game.
You should have used a capital 'I' at the start of that sentence.
But all joking aside, paragraphs are a quintessential part of my Caf experience. Reading a wall of text isn't my gig at all.
Honestly, it's very weird.
Almost like they're expecting PSG-like results and performances every second of every game, every week. That is frankly impossible. Not even Bayern do this. Liverpool last year won the title on the back of winning games where they were decidely second best for large periods. When they do it, it's a sign of championship-winning mentality, but when it has happened under Ole it's a lucky escape.
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