Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Mainoldo]

Response to 1-6

• Sir Alex had built a team of warriors who will fight tooth and nail for the badge. Ole was one of them. You can bet he and his team will fight back from the poor results at the start of this season (that has left us 1 point behind City by the way after 3 games).
• It is going to be challenging trying to win in October against teams with much better match fitness and form and in some cases also a better team on paper (PSG, Chelsea?) so Ole is going to be at his tactical best to overcome these challenges. Knowing the type of guy he is, he'll look forward to battle with the likes of Tuchel, Lampard, Nagelsmann, Arteta and Ancelotti - all generally deemed by the media as superior to Ole tactically - and that's what we need, a Manchester United manager who is not afraid.

Bruno impact

• When Klopp signed van Dijk, it was deemed a masterstroke in completing the final piece of the puzzle and they went from also-ran's to title-contenders. Van Dijk alone was not the reason why Liverpool went on to become title-contenders, rather it was the team Klopp had built.
• Similarly, Bruno was seen as the final piece of the first team puzzle, carefully identified by Ole as having not just the technical abilities but also the personality, leadership and high standards - and this when none of the other big clubs (in pre-Covid times) wanting to take a punt on him. Should Ole not get credit for the upturn in form from then on?

Players' faith in Ole

• I strongly believe, and players have come out and said this often, that they want to play and win with him and generally believe they're on the right path.
• There are internationals there who play under some good managers for their national teams and they would naturally have different perspectives to tactics from different managers so their belief in Ole should not be underestimated. The latest is Bruno, coming out to say the tactics are not the issue and that they are the same as the one used during the title-contending consistent run in the latter half of 2019/20.

Supporters' faith in Ole

• We now need to put some faith in Ole, especially as the forces outside of the club gather to try and make us abandon the current project. He deserves his chance as unanimously agreed when he finished last season amongst the champions league spots, despite (1) playing with the likes of Pereira/Lingard as creator-in-chief for more than half the season, players who would barely get in the first team at Brighton or West Ham and (2) without a decent back-up striker to Martial after selling Lukaku amongst other factors such as long-term injuries (Rashford, Martial, McTominay, Pogba), a squad that's not terribly good outside the first XI challenging on 4 fronts leading to fatigue, etc. But you can bet they've all learnt from it and will be stronger for it - players and staff.
• Very few gave Ole a chance of finishing top six at the start of the season so it's not terribly fair to now say 3rd is not good enough because it was x number of points behind the winners. Liverpool and Man City are well-oiled teams with players in their peak years performing consistently, so it was clear from the beginning these 2 will challenge for the title and finish well ahead of the rest. That was simply not our fight last season; rather, our fight was to finish in the champions league spots amongst a group of 4/5 teams (the 3 London teams, Leicester, Wolves) and we finished ahead of the rest.
• If none of this makes sense, then we must at least recognise that someone like Bruno is an intelligent footballer and understands tactics well, having played in 3 leagues, including the one considered most tactical (Italy) and his support for Ole and his tactics should give us the assurance that beyond what we see on matchday, there are many things working well to head the club in the right direction in the mid- to long-term under Ole.
• Let's not forget Ole did not come in and try to make short-term decisions to protect his job (like getting in a Perisic or Willian for instance) but rather took tougher decisions to do what is right for Manchester United F. C. (like developing Martial as a consistent No. 9, developing the game of previously-written-off Fred and introducing Greenwood slowly). From letting go of players (some very decent ones) who didn't understand what it meant to play for the badge, or those who had lost the heart to play for the club (Lukaku, Smalling) and those who were just not good enough to play for the club either due to lack of quality or lack of personality to deal with the scrutiny (Sanchez). It was always going to take a few summer windows to build a team/squad that can challenge for titles and he focused on the defence first and rightly so, followed by adding creativity in midfield and the next area of focus would've been in attack but Covid scuppered our plans this summer a little (read Sancho). (We did however get the likes of Telles, van De Beek and Cavani who will all prove very valuable members of the squad as the season progresses - the latter additionally in terms of playing a part in the development of our young forwards.)

I have close mates I grew up with who're Liverpool supporters, some of whom in the early years gave up on Klopp because they lost patience whilst he was building something. They didn't say he didn't have pedigree because he did win things in Germany but they felt he was unable to challenge in the vastly more competitive English league and that his heavy metal methods meant they tired toward the business end of the season and that meant they weren't winning much. But the board showed patience, giving him time to develop, fine-tune and adapt his methods to this league - amidst player outgoings/incomings - and eventually it paid off (unfortunately for us).

This is going to be a big month for Ole and this team (ahead of the next internationals) and patience / focus on the big picture is key, as opposed to knee-jerk reactions following results in a few games.
I know it is not easy as we're all emotionally invested and used to insane success under Sir Alex but we have to try - because unlike the vultures outside the club, all our opinions come from the right place - our love for the football club.

@L1nk your right. The Klopp comparisons need to stop too.

 

[LuckyScout78]

Internal solutions:

+ Change formation from 4231 to 433 or 4312
+ Improving coaching. When a Leeds not full of big players. Can play really good team football. Both team pressing and build up playing. So both players and coaching team can improve
+ I hope and see Ole more on the line. Cheer, motivate and claps your players when they are doing something really good on the pitch. Boost theirs confidence while playing.

And if we have try all the intern solutions to improve the team. And still United don’t get the result. Far away from top 4 by the end of November. Then external solutions is needed.

Extern Solutions:
+ A new head coach and his team who knows to coach playing good team football. Build up a machine. Both team pressing and attack.
A coach that will develop players, to become betters.

Conclusion. I am 100% sure 433 or 4312 formation will suit United current squad better. If Ole and his coaching staff don’t see it. Then i am worry for the future. Example of a potential line up against Newcastle.

In a 4312 formation :

Bissaka - Bailly - Lindelof- Telles + Beek - Fred - Pogba + Bruno + Greenwood- Rashford

Change:
- A midfield 3
- Greenwood and Rashford in theirs best positions = LCF and RCF

And Bruno still as a free CAM. To feeds the two CFs upfront

So in others words. I can see where and how United current squad can improve. Before a new head coach arrives.
Like i said earlier. If Ole stuck with 4231 , with Pogba and Matic as the two cm players. Then I don’t think and believe Ole will not get the best out of this United current squad.
Then naturally. If a new head coach arrives after Ole. Seeing it and change/use 433 or 4312. We will see improvement. You get to put players on theirs best positions.

Its how i see. If he get sack or not. There are two paths.
Sack path = Ole is stuck and stubborn with 4231 with Pogba and Matic as regular to the end of Nov.
Surviving path = Change form to 433 or 4312

Those are based on my players and squad analyzing and players rating. Theirs qualities, abilities and where and which positions they suit best. Reasons why i have concluded Ole hasn’t get the best out of United current squad.

And the first match against Palace is on Ole fault. Pogba had Covid and got fatique and gas out really quick. Lead to many missing simple passes. Second right side with James and Mensah. Should started with Beek and Fred instead of Pogba and James. Pogba was clearly unfit and not ready against Palace.

Beek - Fred - McTom + Bruno + Rashford- Martial.

Ole made Palace looked really good with that line up.

Like previous managers. All from Moyes to Mourinho. Theirs put players on not theirs best positions. And they stuck with them until they got sacked. Sorry Fellaini. All of Moyes, LVG and Mourinho were using Fellaini as a central midfield player. But Fellaini best position is a tall supporting strike/second striker. Like he had a precise left foot in Leighton Baines. Who feed him with precise crossers.

So I believe Pogba - Matic and 4231 formation are reasons. If Ole stuck with it, regular. Will be the main factors he will get sack. In others words. It Ole decisions and team selections. His tactics. Are crucial. If he will stay or not.

So not for Ole. Both for the club. I hope for 4312 formation against Newcastle. Like the potential line up i put above. Would love to see how Beek, Pogba, Bruno, Rashford and Greenwood work together. Bring them on and start them please.

 

[cptkeane1993]

@L1nk your right. The Klopp comparisons need to stop too.

The comparison is not with Klopp, rather it is the need for patience whilst waiting for the project to bear fruit. I'm sorry that you missed the point.

 

[Withnail]

The comparison is not with Klopp, rather it is the need for patience whilst waiting for the project to bear fruit. I'm sorry that you missed the point.

You may find that you begin to suspect this type of thing is wilful.

 

[Foxbatt]

The comparison is not with Klopp, rather it is the need for patience whilst waiting for the project to bear fruit. I'm sorry that you missed the point.

There has to be a justification for the patience. Klopp, Fergie, they all had track records before they came to England.
Pep and Zidane managed their respective B teams before they were appointed to the A team. I am sure they would have been sacked if they came 3rd and won nothing and played horrible football.

 

[anant]

There has to be a justification for the patience. Klopp, Fergie, they all had track records before they came to England.
Pep and Zidane managed their respective B teams before they were appointed to the A team. I am sure they would have been sacked if they came 3rd and won nothing and played horrible football.

Uhmm, context is important here. Pep and ZZ joined their respective sides at a time when the gap between them at the top most side in terms of quality wasn't a lot, rather one could argue that the sides they joined were as good as the other side but had had a terrible season.

In Ole's case, one can argue that City and Pool are arguably 2 of Europe's top 5 sides (maybe even top 3) and have been among the top sides for 2-3 years now.

Utd on the other hand aren't among top 10 sides in Europe

 

[Robbie Boy]

You may find that you begin to suspect this type of thing is wilful.

To be fair, the comparisons with their projects aren't comparable. Klopp was always going to get a lot of time due to the work he done at Mainz and Dortmund. I just feel the situations aren't comparable and it's such a stretch to compare them. Liverpool also showed very obvious signs of improvement early in Klopps tenure and it was very obvious how he wanted his side to play and what he was trying to implement. With Ole I just don't really see what he's trying to do at all and our improvements bar our front 3, have been subjective to say the least.

Any friend of mine who is a Liverpool fan was always fully behind Klopp as was the overwhelmingly majority of the fan base. The majority of my friends are United fans and only really one seems to have faith in Ole. There's a reason why our fan base is so divided over Ole and it's because his vision seems unclear and his ability doesn't seem to be that of a top level coach. This is of course only my take. I can see why people support him but I also see some crazy hyperbole from both extreme camps. I would love him to be a success but I don't see him lasting the seasom unfortunately. Yes, there's a plethora of variables against him, sure. But I'm not a fan of constant excuses and if he was lauded for getting us third, then he should be scrutinised for what's happening just now.

Should we go out and put on a real unified performance against Newcastle and win comfortably, then that's a good start to some redemption and a reason for optimism. But this erractic form we show under him has to be nipped in the bud. A defeat is one thing but our bottom level under him is atrocious and our top level isn't good enough to compensate for it.

 

[Foxbatt]

Uhmm, context is important here. Pep and ZZ joined their respective sides at a time when the gap between them at the top most side in terms of quality wasn't a lot, rather one could argue that the sides they joined were as good as the other side but had had a terrible season.

In Ole's case, one can argue that City and Pool are arguably 2 of Europe's top 5 sides (maybe even top 3) and have been among the top sides for 2-3 years now.

Utd on the other hand aren't among top 10 sides in Europe

Ole joined a side that was 2nd in the PL the previous season. He had the same players too. When did Liverpool become a top European side before Klopp joined them? If you want to put in context. Liverpool became a top side because of Klopp.

 

[Bebestation]

Ole joined a side that was 2nd in the PL the previous season. He had the same players too. When did Liverpool become a top European side before Klopp joined them? If you want to put in context. Liverpool became a top side because of Klopp.

I'm not disagreeing with you because I've not followed the discussion but was Brendan Rodgers close to winning the PL the season or two before Klopp came?

Jose may have gotten 2nd but then he did have a crumbling team the season after which led to his sack.

 

[anant]

Ole joined a side that was 2nd in the PL the previous season. He had the same players too. When did Liverpool become a top European side before Klopp joined them? If you want to put in context. Liverpool became a top side because of Klopp.

Like it or not, we were extremely fortunate to get 2nd that season - We were unsustainably clinical on both sides. Every underlying stat- xG, xGA, Shots for and against, and other stats of significance pointed out that we were 6th best team that season. We were 6th the season before (and while Ilike to believe we could have finished in top 4 had we not given up on the league, it was wishful thinking as we gave up on the league after 30 odd GWs) and 6th the season after.

You can probably dig up old threads from that time, where a lot of us argued that the league table seems to flatter us.

Also, Klopp joined a side that almost won the title 16 months earlier. Surely, by that criteria Klopp should have won the title sooner.

P.S. I've no idea why you guys bring Klopp's name up in every argument. No one believes Ole is as good as Klopp, atleast not now

 

[el3mel]

Like it or not, we were extremely fortunate to get 2nd that season - We were unsustainably clinical on both sides. Every underlying stat- xG, xGA, Shots for and against, and other stats of significance pointed out that we were 6th best team that season. We were 6th the season before (and while Ilike to believe we could have finished in top 4 had we not given up on the league, it was wishful thinking as we gave up on the league after 30 odd GWs) and 6th the season after.

You can probably dig up old threads from that time, where a lot of us argued that the league table seems to flatter us.

Also, Klopp joined a side that almost won the title 16 months earlier. Surely, by that criteria Klopp should have won the title sooner.

P.S. I've no idea why you guys bring Klopp's name up in every argument. No one believes Ole is as good as Klopp, atleast not now

If you think we were fortunate to finish 2nd, why are people angry then when we say we were also very fortunate to finish 3rd last season with how many points we got and how many wins we achieved, when it's really the case? Or is it fine to say that on another season as long Ole wasn't the manager ?

Liverpool only challenged for the title under Rodgers thanks to Suarez unbelievable performance and numbers this season. The last 2 years before it they finished 8th and 8th, and after they sold Suarez, they replaced him with duds and they immediately went to 6th again. They have become a joke again by the time Klopp got the job. If you told anyone at this point that 4 years later they would be PL and CL champions, it would have been seen as a troll.

Suarez season was really the only anomaly in such trash period of Liverpool history.

 

[Mainoldo]

The comparison is not with Klopp, rather it is the need for patience whilst waiting for the project to bear fruit. I'm sorry that you missed the point.

No I got the point. I just disagree. I can’t be patient with the wrong guy. It’s like expecting a carpenter to build my house extension. The longer he stays on the project trying to fluke a good job the more damage he’s likely to cause. We see that now with his players he brought last season. They are now the new deadwood.

However it was a lovely written post I enjoyed reading it.

 

[Foxbatt]

I do not mind people comparing Ole to other managers in the PL but at least be sensible about it. Comparing him to Klopp, Pep and Carlo is being ridiculous. Even comparing him to Jose is being silly. Arteta, Lampard is comparable to him up to now.

 

[Mainoldo]

Uhmm, context is important here. Pep and ZZ joined their respective sides at a time when the gap between them at the top most side in terms of quality wasn't a lot, rather one could argue that the sides they joined were as good as the other side but had had a terrible season.

In Ole's case, one can argue that City and Pool are arguably 2 of Europe's top 5 sides (maybe even top 3) and have been among the top sides for 2-3 years now.

Utd on the other hand aren't among top 10 sides in Europe

We finished 2nd on 81 points remember. You have to be fair. A lot of people are giving credit for finishing third. I don’t believe a bad set of players finish 2nd on 81 points. Is this not the same are your Real Madrid argument?

 

[Dve]

No I got the point. I just disagree. I can’t be patient with the wrong guy. It’s like expecting a carpenter to build my house extension. The longer he stays on the project trying to fluke a good job the more damage he’s likely to cause. We see that now with his players he brought last season. They are now the new deadwood.

However it was a lovely written post I enjoyed reading it.

A bit premature to call the signings from last season deadwood. We´ll see where we stand the next few weeks. It´s a long season.

 

[Mainoldo]

A bit premature to call the signings from last season deadwood. We´ll see where we stand the next few weeks. It´s a long season.

I don’t think so. I think everyone if given the choose to stick or twist would sway Maguire, James and AWB for Ake, St Maximum and Hakimi. You’d also have change in your back pocket.

 

[redflash]

Just try please and support the club. Its players, the coaches, the manager

Just try it

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I don’t think so. I think everyone if given the choose to stick or twist would sway Maguire, James and AWB for Ake, St Maximum and Hakimi. You’d also have change in your back pocket.

let’s see how it plays out during the season. Such receny bias/ shiny new thing bias.

 

[windco]

A bit premature to call the signings from last season deadwood. We´ll see where we stand the next few weeks. It´s a long season.

Just looking at their quality compared to their price it's obvious we were doomed for spending almost 150m for Maguire , Awb and James. Put them in team like fulham they won't look out of place at all. History will write those 3 as our worst summer signing ever , worse than Obertan , Owen and Valencia or Fred , Dalot and Grant.

 

[anant]

If you think we were fortunate to finish 2nd, why are people angry then when we say we were also very fortunate to finish 3rd last season with how many points we got and how many wins we achieved, when it's really the case? Or is it fine to say that on another season as long Ole wasn't the manager ?

Liverpool only challenged for the title under Rodgers thanks to Suarez unbelievable performance and numbers this season. The last 2 years before it they finished 8th and 8th, and after they sold Suarez, they replaced him with duds and they immediately went to 6th again. They have become a joke again by the time Klopp got the job. If you told anyone at this point that 4 years later they would be PL and CL champions, it would have been seen as a troll.

Suarez season was really the only anomaly in such trash period of Liverpool history.

Because they are two different things. Our results and our performances were 3rd or 4th best in the league last season, and we finished 3rd. Others were shit and that isn't our problem. In the season we finished 2nd, we did that because of brilliance of one man. It wasn't that we were coached really well, because no tactic would say, let them go 1 v 1 vs Dave. In terms of performances, we weren't top 4.

And before you bring up Bruno's example, I'll bring up 2 points: 1. Even before Bruno joined us, our underlying stats were pointing out that we were underperforming. We were the 4th best side at that time as well. 2. Chance creation, deciding when to shoot, when and where to make runs to, etc. does fall under manager's responsibilities.

And I agree, about Suarez's point. But then you need to acknowledge the same for Dave as well

 

[Mainoldo]

Because they are two different things. Our results and our performances were 3rd or 4th best in the league last season, and we finished 3rd. Others were shit and that isn't our problem. In the season we finished 2nd, we did that because of brilliance of one man. It wasn't that we were coached really well, because no tactic would say, let them go 1 v 1 vs Dave. In terms of performances, we weren't top 4.

And before you bring up Bruno's example, I'll bring up 2 points: 1. Even before Bruno joined us, our underlying stats were pointing out that we were underperforming. We were the 4th best side at that time as well. 2. Chance creation, deciding when to shoot, when and where to make runs to, etc. does fall under manager's responsibilities.

And I agree, about Suarez's point. But then you need to acknowledge the same for Dave as well

What a load of rubbish.

Lukaku scored 30 goals
Matic tightened up our midfield
We went a record undefeated run
We started a season well (imagine that) 4-0 fc. What did Dave have to do then?

I can’t believe to prove a point you have to actually lie just to defend Ole. It’s pathetic.

 

[Withnail]

What a load of rubbish.

Lukaku scored 30 goals
Matic tightened up our midfield
We went a record undefeated run
We started a season well (imagine that) 4-0 fc. What did Dave have to do then?

I can’t believe to prove a point you have to actually lie just to defend Ole. It’s pathetic.

Calls someone a liar and then inflates Lukaku's all competition figure to 30 when the poster was talking about the league. That's good stuff

Lukaku got 16 in the league which isn't great. The team scored 68 goals that year which is about average since Fergie left and one less than the previous year so nothing out of the ordinary there.

The number of goals conceded was what improved and while Matic had a hand in that, De Gea had a massive contribution that season.

It's a bit of an exaggeration to put it all on him obviously but he did play out of his skin and earned the team a lot of points. However, we certainly wouldn't have come second if he played like he did in 2018/2019.

 

[Raredaredevil]

Ole has just said that he will take responsibility if the club's season does not turn around, so if he really loves the club as he claimed, I hope he hands in his resignation if the poor results continue. Of course he won't because he knows he only got this job because he was an ex-player and he would never get a managerial job in the Premier League again. Everyone especially the Ole supporters blame Ed Woodward and the Glazers (they are no doubt part of a bigger problem), but them aside, our manager is the weakest link and I just do not see any style, system or tactical set-up with the team. All the past United managers from David Moyes to Louis Van Gaal and Jose Mourinho have been sacked acrimoniously, so there is a bigger underlying issue with the club's management but it all also come down to the manager's ability. David Moyes was out of his depth. Louis Van Gaal was out-dated and Jose Mourinho was toxic. I'd classify Ole in the same category as Moyes.

I grew up watching Ole and I am a fan of him, so it's painful to see him struggling. I became a fan of Man Utd because of David Beckham (I'm still the biggest fan of the great man) and if it was Beckham who is in this same position as Ole, I'd have also called for him to be sacked. No manager, player is bigger than the club. Ole, for his reputation, if he wants to salvage any; if he even has any, he should just hand in his resignation. In particular, I felt sorry for how the news was broken to Louis Van Gaal, immediately after he won us the FA Cup, our first trophy in 3 years since SAF won us our last league title. That was disgraceful.

Ole resigning would actually do him a lot more good as it would garner him a lot of support from his supporters and win him a lot of sympathy in the footballing community from the fans and ex-players, pundits etc. He should also come out publicly to criticize Woodward and the Glazers, but he won't because he is too nice. He would inevitably get sacked at some point if our results don't turn around.

 

[Wilt]

Just noticed 1000 voters have smelled the coffee

”One small step for man(Utd), one giant leap.....

 

[rotherham_red]

If you think we were fortunate to finish 2nd, why are people angry then when we say we were also very fortunate to finish 3rd last season with how many points we got and how many wins we achieved, when it's really the case? Or is it fine to say that on another season as long Ole wasn't the manager ?

Liverpool only challenged for the title under Rodgers thanks to Suarez unbelievable performance and numbers this season. The last 2 years before it they finished 8th and 8th, and after they sold Suarez, they replaced him with duds and they immediately went to 6th again. They have become a joke again by the time Klopp got the job. If you told anyone at this point that 4 years later they would be PL and CL champions, it would have been seen as a troll.

Suarez season was really the only anomaly in such trash period of Liverpool history.

Because our underlying numbers and stats had us finishing 3rd/4th all the way through the season. Even when we were at our lowest ebbs.

 

[anant]

What a load of rubbish.

Lukaku scored 30 goals
Matic tightened up our midfield
We went a record undefeated run
We started a season well (imagine that) 4-0 fc. What did Dave have to do then?

I can’t believe to prove a point you have to actually lie just to defend Ole. It’s pathetic.

Mate, we started off real well that season, but Pool 0-0 onwards, it was clear that the sailing wasn't that smooth irrespective of the results. In absolute numbers we had a great season, but underlying stats and the eeyetest were pointing to a very different story.

We had 13.5 (4.7 on target) shots a game that season. We had 15.6 (5.5 on target) a season before and for reference we had 14.3 (5.7 on target) shots last season.

On the defensive side where Matic helped with our defence, we conceded 11.5 shots a game (7th best) vs 9.5 (5th best) in 16/17 and 10.3 (5th best) last season

I can go on about the xG conceded numbers as well, but any person can recall how bad we were. There was a reason why Dave won the player of the season award, and comfortably so.

And around the 'record' unbeaten run, that was in 2016/17 not the season when we finished 2nd. But interesting that you brought that point up. Our longest unbeaten run in PL that season was 12 games. The longest run was 14 games last season.

 

[Leftback99]

Because our underlying numbers and stats had us finishing 3rd/4th all the way through the season. Even when we were at our lowest ebbs.

Yes, and when we finished 2nd we were around 6th by the same measures. It was no surprise when we dropped off in the next season.

 

[Mainoldo]

Mate, we started off real well that season, but Pool 0-0 onwards, it was clear that the sailing wasn't that smooth irrespective of the results. In absolute numbers we had a great season, but underlying stats and the eeyetest were pointing to a very different story.

We had 13.5 (4.7 on target) shots a game that season. We had 15.6 (5.5 on target) a season before and for reference we had 14.3 (5.7 on target) shots last season.

On the defensive side where Matic helped with our defence, we conceded 11.5 shots a game (7th best) vs 9.5 (5th best) in 16/17 and 10.3 (5th best) last season

I can go on about the xG conceded numbers as well, but any person can recall how bad we were. There was a reason why Dave won the player of the season award, and comfortably so.

And around the 'record' unbeaten run, that was in 2016/17 not the season when we finished 2nd. But interesting that you brought that point up. Our longest unbeaten run in PL that season was 12 games. The longest run was 14 games last season.

Well after we got banged by Huddersfield, humiliated by Cardiff. Got told it was a fitness issue and some of the players weren’t going to outlast him. Started the season running round like Lunatics but beating Chelsea. Then spend the next 3 games looking clueless. It was pretty obvious this manager didn’t have a clue how to manage a big club. We then made him continue to manage us into mediocrity until Burnley when he really should have got the sack. He then gets Bruno we get abit of a buzz and luckily for us Leicester crumble and Chelsea have a manager worthy of the same level we have.

Not to mention his numerous odd moments.

Plays a unfit Pogba against Rochdale only to end up losing him for months


Runs Rashford into the ground until he breaks his back. Said he knew he had an injury but still put him on to rescue an FA cup game.

Strips DDG of the captaincy to give to good old Maguire

Plays Maguire in literally every game of the season. Yes every gameeven against Tranmere Rovers.

Refuses to drop DDG when he’s in a poor stretch of form.

Drops our cup goal keeper everytime it comes to a semi big game. FA cup semi final. Europa league semi final.

Persist in a double pivot with Pogba playing a 6.

Decided he wanted attacking full backs but buys AWB and just only now brings in a left back for that side.

Requested a striker but instead of rejecting options he doesn’t deem good enough. Gets them anyway and doesn’t use them (Ighalo)

Knows he needed a RW but Instead of yet again waiting for the right option ask Ryan Giggs If his LW recommendation in Dan James can play on the right. Love behold he can’t.

 

[Robbie Boy]

The mental gymnastics in here could win triple gold at the Olympics.

 

[anant]

Well after we got banged by Huddersfield, humiliated by Cardiff. Got told it was a fitness issue and some of the players weren’t going to outlast him. Started the season running round like Lunatics but beating Chelsea. Then spend the next 3 games looking clueless. It was pretty obvious this manager didn’t have a clue how to manage a big club. We then made him continue to manage us into mediocrity until Burnley when he really should have got the sack. He then gets Bruno we get abit of a buzz and luckily for us Leicester crumble and Chelsea have a manager worthy of the same level we have.

Not to mention his numerous odd moments.

Plays a unfit Pogba against Rochdale only to end up losing him for months


Runs Rashford into the ground until he breaks his back. Said he knew he had an injury but still put him on to rescue an FA cup game.

Strips DDG of the captaincy to give to good old Maguire

Plays Maguire in literally every game of the season. Yes every gameeven against Tranmere Rovers.

Refuses to drop DDG when he’s in a poor stretch of form.

Drops our cup goal keeper everytime it comes to a semi big game. FA cup semi final. Europa league semi final.

Persist in a double pivot with Pogba playing a 6.

Decided he wanted attacking full backs but buys AWB and just only now brings in a left back for that side.

Requested a striker but instead of rejecting options he doesn’t deem good enough. Gets them anyway and doesn’t use them (Ighalo)

Knows he needed a RW but Instead of yet again waiting for the right option ask Ryan Giggs If his LW recommendation in Dan James can play on the right. Love behold he can’t.

Bravo! A long post that is completely unrelated to the point I was making!

 

[Mainoldo]

Bravo! A long post that is completely unrelated to the point I was making!

Your point had no relevance. Why didn’t you compare your xG stats against Ole’s season? That would be a good read.

 

[anant]

Your point had no relevance. Why didn’t you compare your xG stats against Ole’s season? That would be a good read.

You sure about that? Here you go:

xG in 17/18: 59.04 (6th best in the league)
xG in 19/20: 66.19 (4th best in the league)

xGA in 17/18: 43.54 (5th best in the league)
xGA in 19/20: 38.06 (3rd best in the league)

So yeah, you were saying something?

 

[Mainoldo]

You sure about that? Here you go:

xG in 17/18: 59.04 (6th best in the league)
xG in 19/20: 66.19 (4th best in the league)

xGA in 17/18: 43.54 (5th best in the league)
xGA in 19/20: 38.06 (3rd best in the league)

So yeah, you were saying something?

Okay I’m not going to lie but I don’t have the foggiest clue about xG. But I did abit of googling. So don’t penalties highly inflate your xG. As they have a higher rating which they should as it’s a clear 1v1? Therefore I expect our real xG do be nowhere near 3rd.

xGA your right. DDG was still saving shots that should have gone in. I wish we had that xGA now as he does the reverse.

 

[anant]

Okay I’m not going to lie but I don’t have the foggiest clue about xG. But I did abit of googling. So don’t penalties highly inflate your xG. As they have a higher rating which they should as it’s a clear 1v1? Therefore I expect our real xG do be nowhere near 3rd.

xGA your right. DDG was still saving shots that should have gone in. I wish we had that xGA now as he does the reverse.

They have a higher value, yes. But they're as clear a goal as they come. If an opposition player is bringing our attacker down in the penalty box, you can't be holding that against us. If you play with directness, try and dribble in pen box, you're bound to win more pens, and we just benefitted from that

 

[Untd55]

You sure about that? Here you go:

xG in 17/18: 59.04 (6th best in the league)
xG in 19/20: 66.19 (4th best in the league)

xGA in 17/18: 43.54 (5th best in the league)
xGA in 19/20: 38.06 (3rd best in the league)

So yeah, you were saying something?

This expected goals against and for means nothing without context.

Teams could have 20 rubbish chances that add up to the value of 3 quality chances.

What are the statistics on the opposition getting behind our defence and having a one-on-one with De Gea? Last season, teams were shredding our defence, particularly in the first half of the season. We conceded in every game from mid-September to the end of December. That cannot just be bad luck for such a thing to continue for so long.

Another thing, do you know the expected goals for last season were massively inflated by penalties? Penalties are far easier to get now with the introduction of VAR, proved by the record amounts teams have been getting.

XG from open play (19/20): 46.12
XG from open play (17/18): 46.64

XG from penalties (19/20): 10.66
XG from penalties (17/18): 2.28

We have actually been no better at creating chances from open play as we were in 17/18. Actually, we were slightly worse in 19/20. We were also better at creating chances from corners and set pieces in 17/18, but better at freekicks in 19/20.

When people use stats, they never seem to use everything. Do you also know that Martial's expected goals were 13, but he actually scored 17? Is that also not outperforming what he should be doing? So, are we relying on a player who is going to collapse this season because XG says he shouldn't be scoring that many? Also, do you know Greenwood has an XG or 3 but scored 10?

XG is not useful when used alone. What you expect a player to score depends on how good that player is. I do not expect Heskey to curl a freekick into the top corner, but I would expect Messi to be able to do it.

 

[el3mel]

Because they are two different things. Our results and our performances were 3rd or 4th best in the league last season, and we finished 3rd. Others were shit and that isn't our problem. In the season we finished 2nd, we did that because of brilliance of one man. It wasn't that we were coached really well, because no tactic would say, let them go 1 v 1 vs Dave. In terms of performances, we weren't top 4.

And before you bring up Bruno's example, I'll bring up 2 points: 1. Even before Bruno joined us, our underlying stats were pointing out that we were underperforming. We were the 4th best side at that time as well. 2. Chance creation, deciding when to shoot, when and where to make runs to, etc. does fall under manager's responsibilities.

And I agree, about Suarez's point. But then you need to acknowledge the same for Dave as well

I'm sorry but this is very biased. We were absolute shite in the first half of the last season, and before the league stopped due to Corona virus we were 5th in the league. Our results at this time weren't 3rd or 4th best in the league. If not for Leicester big collapse thanks to the restart, and us getting Rashford, Pogba and Bruno, we might not have finished top 4. We got into top 4 and 3rd actually only in the last 2 gameweeks of the season.

To go on and say our 2nd spot was very fortunate even though we spent the whole season being 2nd except for one game week in which we dropped to 3rd but then say our results last season were 3rd best even though we were 5th or below for the huge majority of the season and only jumped to 3rd in the last 2 weeks is just a biased opinion towards the current manager, sorry. If you want to point one as fortunate then the other has to be.

 

[Foxbatt]

Looking at the way Liverpool played I am starting to hate Moyes more. He fecked up this club big time. The same for Woodward too.

 

[RedSky]

Ole joined a side that was 2nd in the PL the previous season. He had the same players too. When did Liverpool become a top European side before Klopp joined them? If you want to put in context. Liverpool became a top side because of Klopp.

We had conceded 29 times in 19/20 when Jose was sacked. We conceded 28 times during 18/19 when we finished 2nd. But lets not kid ourselves, the wheels were falling off the Jose bus during 18/19, our attack was stuttering and our defense was leaking goals. His last 30 league games resulted in a goal difference of +9, conceding 39 goals. I applaud Jose for managing to claw out the wins, but we were pretty shit from the start of 2018 onwards. The Tottenham loss at the end of January was the start of the rot and we never recovered.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Looking at the way Liverpool played I am starting to hate Moyes more. He fecked up this club big time. The same for Woodward too.

There's a lot of reasons to wish Moyes tenure never happened but I don't understand how it's his fault we're in this mess now? Yes he got rid of our backroom staff but any new manager probably would of done the same. He took over an aging squad which was broken up when he left. It's not as if he spent 100s of millions in the transfer market. For me I've blanked him from my mind as if he never existed and even though our downfall started when SAF was still in charge LVG and Mou are the ones with the most blame and at the minute Ole isn't doing a fantastic job to rectify past mistakes.

Ed I can definitely agree with you.

 

[anant]

This expected goals against and for means nothing without context.

Teams could have 20 rubbish chances that add up to the value of 3 quality chances.

What are the statistics on the opposition getting behind our defence and having a one-on-one with De Gea? Last season, teams were shredding our defence, particularly in the first half of the season. We conceded in every game from mid-September to the end of December. That cannot just be bad luck for such a thing to continue for so long.

Another thing, do you know the expected goals for last season were massively inflated by penalties? Penalties are far easier to get now with the introduction of VAR, proved by the record amounts teams have been getting.

XG from open play (19/20): 46.12
XG from open play (17/18): 46.64

XG from penalties (19/20): 10.66
XG from penalties (17/18): 2.28

We have actually been no better at creating chances from open play as we were in 17/18. Actually, we were slightly worse in 19/20. We were also better at creating chances from corners and set pieces in 17/18, but better at freekicks in 19/20.

When people use stats, they never seem to use everything. Do you also know that Martial's expected goals were 13, but he actually scored 17? Is that also not outperforming what he should be doing? So, are we relying on a player who is going to collapse this season because XG says he shouldn't be scoring that many? Also, do you know Greenwood has an XG or 3 but scored 10?

XG is not useful when used alone. What you expect a player to score depends on how good that player is. I do not expect Heskey to curl a freekick into the top corner, but I would expect Messi to be able to do it.

Penalties have gone up from 80 in the 17/18 season to 91 last season. We had had 103 in 2018/19 and 106 in 2016/17. So, VAR hasn't really increased the number of pens (atleast till last season, it's going to be a different case this season)

Assuming your 2nd statement is true, where the opposition had a lot of 1 v 1s vs Dave last season, surely our xGA last season should have been worse? The situation is accounted for in xG calculations, and hence that number should pop out somewhere. Interestingly, we conceded more shots in PL in 17/18 season as compared to 18/19 season, whereas the % of shots from inside the box has remained roughly the same (61% in 17/18 vs 62% last season). When you consider these %ages with the other PL teams, you'd notice, this percentage was the 12th best in 17/18, whereas it was the 4th best last season.

Coming to your xG from open play stats, penalties aren't easier to get as I pointed out earlier. Earlier, while some penalties weren't awarded, some of them were incorrectly awarded as well (as you can see in the number of pens in PL per season stat). Irrespective, we got what 14 pens(?) in league last season, I'm assuming 8-9 of those pens would have had a shot regardless, and hence the NPxG would have still been higher last season - but we're dealing with hypotheticals.

And to your last point, I literally pointed to a lot more stats in the initial posts - shots for and against, shots on target for and against earlier. And even on those stats, you'd notice we did better last year as compared to 17/18 - in absolute terms as well as relative to league terms.