And that despite playing half season with a severely weakened team(no Pogba or Bruno).
But you know how it goes: all success comes from the players, and all failure comes from Ole.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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And that despite playing half season with a severely weakened team(no Pogba or Bruno).
But you know how it goes: all success comes from the players, and all failure comes from Ole.
- Arsenal replaced 2 managers
- Spurs had a Mourinho season like had in his third season
- Everton replaced managers
So basically we were the only top team along with City and Liverpool that didn’t have any managerial disruptions and obviously Chelsea have Lampard which is probably as big as a handicap as us having Ole. Which believe me this season will show again for Chelsea.
Maybe do a review for each of our competitors because clearly they all had zero handicaps.
That sounds like excuses to me, the type of post you like to laugh at when people defend Ole. Fact is we finished 3rd, not 8th. I know that hurts, but that's the reality. I don't remember you providing this excuse when Ole finished our first season either. That doesn't fit your bullshit agenda though I guess.
Never claimed otherwise.
But the term "new manager bounce" exists for a reason. I think our problems were more severe, overall. We had huge gaps in every part on the pitch(defense, midfield, attack), but we only strengthened the defense. And then we lost the only player capable of connection the midfield and the attack. Our midfield without Pogba(pre Bruno) was midtable quality at best.
We shouldn't take the brilliant 2nd half of the season for granted. And while I love the player, we can't give Bruno all the credit.
Since we signed him, Fernandes contributed to 50% of our goals through either goals or assists, and that is ignoring any part played in other goals. This is absurdly high; even De Bruyne only contributes to 30% through the same means, and he is the best in the world in his position.
People look at the second half of last season and buy into the idea that it was just that good. It wasn't; it was an unsustainable run of results that was heavily based on Fernandes's ridiculous level of play in that period. As soon as Fernandes's form deteriorated, our performances dropped off like an avalanche, culminating in the results we are getting.
Not only was Fernandes responsible for creating/scoring 50% of our goals, but he was also responsible for pinning the opposition in their half to improve our defensive record. Remember that our defence didn't actually improve until we signed Fernandes; we conceded in every game from mid-September to the end of December before signing him.
A lot of people couldn't see it, but a lot of the run was based on one player's ridiculous run of form; a form that is not sustainable. His performances have dropped off to a point where he has been pretty poor for quite a few games, albeit he is still creating a chance and scoring a penalty every now and then.
Penalties are another issue with Solskjaer's second-half of season run. We got a ridiculous number of penalties, which formed a major part of our results. Quite a few times we needed a penalty to turn a game around when we started on the back foot, unable to score from open play. Fernandes and penalties were two areas that formed too big of a part in our results last season; it was never going to continue that way.
People look at the second half of last season and buy into the idea that it was just that good. It wasn't; it was an unsustainable run of results that was heavily based on Fernandes's ridiculous level of play in that period. As soon as Fernandes's form deteriorated, our performances dropped off like an avalanche, culminating in the results we are getting.
Not only was Fernandes responsible for creating/scoring 50% of our goals, but he was also responsible for pinning the opposition in their half to improve our defensive record. Remember that our defence didn't actually improve until we signed Fernandes; we conceded in every game from mid-September to the end of December before signing him.
A lot of people couldn't see it, but a lot of the run was based on one player's ridiculous run of form; a form that is not sustainable. His performances have dropped off to a point where he has been pretty poor for quite a few games, albeit he is still creating a chance and scoring a penalty every now and then.
Penalties are another issue with Solskjaer's second-half of season run. We got a ridiculous number of penalties, which formed a major part of our results. Quite a few times we needed a penalty to turn a game around when we started on the back foot, unable to score from open play. Fernandes and penalties were two areas that formed too big of a part in our results last season; it was never going to continue that way.
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If you remove penalties won by other players, then I reckon that number drops down to 25% or something.
I rate Bruno highly, btw.
It is an excuse. But it’s context isn’t it which is exactly what the otherside like to bring. The fact of the matter is I don’t need these ‘excuses’ to see what has actually happened. But sometimes they are good for balanced arguments.
The main point is we are a rubbish footballing team to watch and how you are on the field is normally a representation of your manager. For instance I can say I watch little to nothing of Newcastle. But I know Steve Bruce and I can guarantee you he probably has them playing rubbish football, like he did Villa and like he did with Hull. It doesn’t matter which players he has. He can have Grealish or St Maximum.
Also I really not the poster to be like where was your mouth when things were looking good. You can look at my posts I’m very consistent with my view on this manager.
We've sacked someone who finished 2nd, reached a final, and won cups. And rightly so.
3rd with no cups is nothing to brag about really. It's bare minimum.
When we sacked Mourinho, he was 11 points behind top 4 at the halfway point of the season and had been kind of toxic in the media.
If Solskjær is 11 points(or more) behind top 4 at Christmas, then he will probably also get sacked.
Bullshit. Not with the team we had for half a season and with Liverpool and City being miles ahead of us in practically any metric. In context, 3rd is a good achievement overall. Arguably as good as Mourinho's 2nd place finish.
That's true, Mourinho also created a rod for his own back. I don't know about the 2nd statement though, Ole has been through some very bad form and we've persisted, so I don't really know what to expect.
If Ole was better there'd be less of a huge gap. And for sure it's bare minimum, because even other previous managers who were miles behind in the league still managed to get to a cup final or win it. Simply top 4 with no cups is bare minimum; especially scraping it in the manner we did.
With that said, the thing that could elevate that 3rd position is if the style of football is top quality despite the position. And Ole was close to that for a short spell, but the majority of the time the football was poor.
I know exactly who you are (hard not to) and what you post. It was like bleeding a rock trying to get anything remotely positive from you when we were playing well and the knives came out immediately once we dropped points. There's a reason why this thread is fecking diabolical and you top the post counter by over 500 posts to 2nd highest. You never give anyone else chance to post, you suffocate this thread with never ending negativity. Don't mind you outside of this thread though!
I've always been of the opinion that once Jose left (before imo), the squad needed rebuilding, not just one or two positions... but the entire squad. LVG left this squad in pieces and Jose did very little to address this, what Ole has done is actual rebuilding and getting the clubs morale back. He'll be a Manager that passes on the club in a far better position than when he found it, but i've never felt he was the man to take us right back to the top, simply steady the ship and push it back on track. Which he has accomplished imo.
I'd let him see out the season (assuming we're on track for a top 4 finish) and then pick a Manager who actually has the tools to push it towards a league title (please, please not Poch). Ole can leave with dignity and his head held high. I expect us to beat Newcastle, we'll get a good reaction after the Spurs match. We're a wounded animal right now, so i'm expecting a backlash.
As of right now, i'd take results over style. More important than ever to finish top 4, what with Corona.
10pm Saturday night is going to be fun on these pages!! May get to 51:49 the other way.
We won’t get 66 or more points this season - too many players going backwards in quality and form (and that includes last 7/8 games of last season).
Looking at how well other clubs have started with new players I don’t see this side managed by Ole getting in the top 6.
Pogba will be in a strop, the defenders are utter gash and getting worse, our wingers can’t create or score and Martial looks like he’s going for one of his off seasons.
Looking at how well other clubs have started with new players I don’t see this side managed by Ole getting in the top 6.
Pogba will be in a strop, the defenders are utter gash and getting worse, our wingers can’t create or score and Martial looks like he’s going for one of his off seasons.
I’m actually upset I’m now second.
(Just got what you meant. Now I’m just embarrassed
)I can’t help it I really don’t get our obsession with backing managers it’s been our downfall since Fergie had left. That and actually recruiting correctly. But I’ll let some posters breathe for a while.
That's a nice stat but a major factor in Fernandes playing such a big part in our goals/assists total was because of the penalties. You can't carry on like they are separate things when he's the one taking them.
He's also not the reason we are playing badly. The whole team has been diabolical and you can't put that on one player. Correlation doesn't mean causation.
I’m actually upset I’m now second.
I can’t help it I really don’t get our obsession with backing managers it’s been our downfall since Fergie had left. That and actually recruiting correctly. But I’ll let some posters breathe for a while.
The recruitment is the key for me. You scroll through our transfers since Sir Alex and cringe. Very few I would consider a success.
I agree, which is why to me it was frustrating to see the lack of succession planning from the club this summer.
All throughout last season I asked for proactivity. Ole completed the season in an ideal manner: top 4, 3 semi-finals, and a solid 1st 11. A perfect way to leave with his head held high, having achieved the stability an 'extended caretaker' should. At this point I was really hoping that the club had the foresight to have someone lined up to take over the good work Ole had done, and it was the perfect time to thank Ole for his valuable contribution, and part ways. Of course we kept him on, and now it's looking like we're going to struggle, and his reputation is going to be tarnished unnecessarily.
What you suggest we do this season, is what we should have done last season and honestly I don't think Ole can leave with dignity anymore due to the increasing pressure he'll be under this season. As we can see the press have already started sniffing, and if things get as bad as they did last season, I don't see them sparing him. Or any other person at the club for that matter, from the board all the way down to the players.
And if that happens, it would undo his good work in repairing the bleak atmosphere Mourinho created, and no doubt put his whole extended caretaker period in a negative light. All because of our poor succession planning.
We will thrash Newcastle tomorrow most probably but if we lose tomorrow there is going to be enormous pressure on him. If he gets points out of the rest of the 4 matches, he is going to stay. Tomorrow is the crucial one.
I have not changed my mind that he is not a top class manager and nothing I have seen so far has given me anything to change my mind. It may be due to his coaching staff but at the end of the day the buck stops with the manager.
I have not changed my mind that he is not a top class manager and nothing I have seen so far has given me anything to change my mind. It may be due to his coaching staff but at the end of the day the buck stops with the manager.
Is that ole's fault that other were shit?
We will probably get a win tomorrow, which will ease the pressure around him and the club a little bit, but after that, who knows. Our list of fixtures is terrible but Ole reminds me of how LVG used to get results when his job is in danger to get himself more time before fecking it up again. Only time will tell.
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No but let's stop talking about 3rd and some semi finals as an achievement as it's starting to get embarrassing. We used to mock Arsenal fans for the 4th spot trophy even though they had no money to spend after building their stadium but now we are doing worse than them.
Good post
Are people talking about it as an achievement or was it merely a rebuttal to those saying he should be sacked or that we're only a top 8 side with this manager?
It's not but it's the reason he kept his job ultimately. He absolutely earned the right to keep his job and see if he can move us forward this season but his job was always going to be under pressure because it was still a worrying season.
I don't think he's earned a full season or the ridiculous right to replace nearly every player. If we're still poor going into Christmas he needs to go.
I think we'll beat Newcastle, this thread will be amusing when we do as no doubt we'll be 'back'
Nah come on we'll have to do well in the next 3 or 4 games at least before that happens.
I can't see anyone sticking their neck out before we get the champion's league games out of the way unless they're on an absolute WUM
No not at all. But I hope he sends them all Christmas cards as it helped him manage another season. But he’s started off exactly as bad as he did last season.
Worse than last year. Then we had 4 points after 3 games and now we got 3.
I can't remember when but it was a certain game last season that made me arrive at the conclusion that we are not a shit team but once the players are motivated we play some really good stuff. Don't be surprised if we beat Newcastle by a three goal margin and come out alive from our next fixtures
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Bruno impact
Players' faith in Ole
Supporters' faith in Ole
I have close mates I grew up with who're Liverpool supporters, some of whom in the early years gave up on Klopp because they lost patience whilst he was building something. They didn't say he didn't have pedigree because he did win things in Germany but they felt he was unable to challenge in the vastly more competitive English league and that his heavy metal methods meant they tired toward the business end of the season and that meant they weren't winning much. But the board showed patience, giving him time to develop, fine-tune and adapt his methods to this league - amidst player outgoings/incomings - and eventually it paid off (unfortunately for us).
This is going to be a big month for Ole and this team (ahead of the next internationals) and patience / focus on the big picture is key, as opposed to knee-jerk reactions following results in a few games.
I know it is not easy as we're all emotionally invested and used to insane success under Sir Alex but we have to try - because unlike the vultures outside the club, all our opinions come from the right place - our love for the football club.
- Sir Alex had built a team of warriors who will fight tooth and nail for the badge. Ole was one of them. You can bet he and his team will fight back from the poor results at the start of this season (that has left us 1 point behind City by the way after 3 games).
- It is going to be challenging trying to win in October against teams with much better match fitness and form and in some cases also a better team on paper (PSG, Chelsea?) so Ole is going to be at his tactical best to overcome these challenges. Knowing the type of guy he is, he'll look forward to battle with the likes of Tuchel, Lampard, Nagelsmann, Arteta and Ancelotti - all generally deemed by the media as superior to Ole tactically - and that's what we need, a Manchester United manager who is not afraid.
Bruno impact
- When Klopp signed van Dijk, it was deemed a masterstroke in completing the final piece of the puzzle and they went from also-ran's to title-contenders. Van Dijk alone was not the reason why Liverpool went on to become title-contenders, rather it was the team Klopp had built.
- Similarly, Bruno was seen as the final piece of the first team puzzle, carefully identified by Ole as having not just the technical abilities but also the personality, leadership and high standards - and this when none of the other big clubs (in pre-Covid times) wanting to take a punt on him. Should Ole not get credit for the upturn in form from then on?
Players' faith in Ole
- I strongly believe, and players have come out and said this often, that they want to play and win with him and generally believe they're on the right path.
- There are internationals there who play under some good managers for their national teams and they would naturally have different perspectives to tactics from different managers so their belief in Ole should not be underestimated. The latest is Bruno, coming out to say the tactics are not the issue and that they are the same as the one used during the title-contending consistent run in the latter half of 2019/20.
Supporters' faith in Ole
- We now need to put some faith in Ole, especially as the forces outside of the club gather to try and make us abandon the current project. He deserves his chance as unanimously agreed when he finished last season amongst the champions league spots, despite (1) playing with the likes of Pereira/Lingard as creator-in-chief for more than half the season, players who would barely get in the first team at Brighton or West Ham and (2) without a decent back-up striker to Martial after selling Lukaku amongst other factors such as long-term injuries (Rashford, Martial, McTominay, Pogba), a squad that's not terribly good outside the first XI challenging on 4 fronts leading to fatigue, etc. But you can bet they've all learnt from it and will be stronger for it - players and staff.
- Very few gave Ole a chance of finishing top six at the start of the season so it's not terribly fair to now say 3rd is not good enough because it was x number of points behind the winners. Liverpool and Man City are well-oiled teams with players in their peak years performing consistently, so it was clear from the beginning these 2 will challenge for the title and finish well ahead of the rest. That was simply not our fight last season; rather, our fight was to finish in the champions league spots amongst a group of 4/5 teams (the 3 London teams, Leicester, Wolves) and we finished ahead of the rest.
- If none of this makes sense, then we must at least recognise that someone like Bruno is an intelligent footballer and understands tactics well, having played in 3 leagues, including the one considered most tactical (Italy) and his support for Ole and his tactics should give us the assurance that beyond what we see on matchday, there are many things working well to head the club in the right direction in the mid- to long-term under Ole.
- Let's not forget Ole did not come in and try to make short-term decisions to protect his job (like getting in a Perisic or Willian for instance) but rather took tougher decisions to do what is right for Manchester United F. C. (like developing Martial as a consistent No. 9, developing the game of previously-written-off Fred and introducing Greenwood slowly). From letting go of players (some very decent ones) who didn't understand what it meant to play for the badge, or those who had lost the heart to play for the club (Lukaku, Smalling) and those who were just not good enough to play for the club either due to lack of quality or lack of personality to deal with the scrutiny (Sanchez). It was always going to take a few summer windows to build a team/squad that can challenge for titles and he focused on the defence first and rightly so, followed by adding creativity in midfield and the next area of focus would've been in attack but Covid scuppered our plans this summer a little (read Sancho). (We did however get the likes of Telles, van De Beek and Cavani who will all prove very valuable members of the squad as the season progresses - the latter additionally in terms of playing a part in the development of our young forwards.)
I have close mates I grew up with who're Liverpool supporters, some of whom in the early years gave up on Klopp because they lost patience whilst he was building something. They didn't say he didn't have pedigree because he did win things in Germany but they felt he was unable to challenge in the vastly more competitive English league and that his heavy metal methods meant they tired toward the business end of the season and that meant they weren't winning much. But the board showed patience, giving him time to develop, fine-tune and adapt his methods to this league - amidst player outgoings/incomings - and eventually it paid off (unfortunately for us).
This is going to be a big month for Ole and this team (ahead of the next internationals) and patience / focus on the big picture is key, as opposed to knee-jerk reactions following results in a few games.
I know it is not easy as we're all emotionally invested and used to insane success under Sir Alex but we have to try - because unlike the vultures outside the club, all our opinions come from the right place - our love for the football club.
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This was Leceister in the second half of the season too
It was a fantastic achievement that we hit a targeted stepping stone despite being under resourced and plagued by injuries. Same asMourinho’s 80 points and 2nd place that so many thought was dismal.
It seems as though you expect a team to go from 5th to 1st in one season and without the same quality as the incumbent champions. Aside from the freak season of Leicester, I’d like you to show me how regularly this happens.
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It was good, just good. We made a good comeback and the results at the end of the season were positive and encouraging, but finishing top 4 with 66 points and trophyless isn't an achievement for United at the end of the day and continuous talking about 3rd is honestly starting to get embarrassing as if this is the pinnacle of United at the moment. We used to mock Arsenal for this shite, we shouldn't do it ourselves. If we had won won something, Fa Cup or Europe League alongside finishing top 4 it would have looked much, much better, but overall and as how it was, it was individually a bang average season for a club like United with good ending to it that made us optimistic about having an actual good next season. Just on the same level to LVG first season for me, when we got top 4 with 70 points and trophyless.
Great post and agree with every word. Thanks for writing
Mourinho's 2nd place is still a better achievement than last season's 3rd place. Neither are achievements though
Well I strongly disagree with you and think such flippant views are symptomatic of the desire for instant gratification rather than based in any realism.
likewise there are plenty of mitigating factors that should be taken into consideration for the start to this season. But people with agenda’s refuse to see that.
And we’ve only just started the season! If we are still in the same position in January then there can be a discussion.
All the negative noise being generated right now is simply media seeking clicks and people who hate OGS making the clicks and writing rubbish on forums like this. (I can’t call them United supporters because they evidently are not doing any supporting)
Nothing about instant gratification, I didn't ask to win the league, but I like to maintain my expectations of United as high as possible because the moment you let your expectations drop down too much, you'll never manage to remember how high they used to be and you'll get used to it.
As I said it's mostly on bar with LVG's first season. We also had a crap start to this one and iirc we were 10th in the table by gameweek 13 then we made a comeback and managed to finish top 4 and won nothing, while having a solid run in second half to get us optimistic that next season will actually be a good one. Last season was on bar with this, crap start, good comeback and good run in second half to get us optimistic about next season but again trophyless. Both can't be seen anything for me bar average seasons but with lots of things to be positive about regarding next season. Of course it turned out crap in LVG second season after that and this season had started in a pretty crap way but let's see how'll pan out.
This forum isn't about just being supportive though. It would be really boring if it was just positive threads after positive threads regardless of the current events. People, also, used to mock RAWK forum for the delusion of its fans even during crap results periods and how they moderate their forum to keep it look rosy all the time. I don't want this forum to be like that. It's supposed to be a discussion forum and not supporting one, first and foremost. When the results are shite like currently there'll be a lot of discussions and negative opinions. When it was great during the end of last season, the majority here were really positive and optimistic. Just the way it would always be.
My problem with CAF is just how most discussions end up taking personal insults routes rather than being positive or negative place.
No one considers it to be an achievement. However, considering Ole-outers point to 'New manager bounce' as the reason for our upturn in form in the 2018/19 season, I wonder why teams such as Arsenal - who replaced their manager twice, Spurs - who sacked Poch, Everton - Who hired Ancelloti , not finish above us? Did they not get the new manager bounce? Especially when you consider we're 8th best team as Ole is in charge of us as per you guys
Doesn't seem though.
Probably because at the end of the day, we have actually much better squad than them ? And till the moment we still have much better squad than Spurs, Everton, Arsenal and Leicester.
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