I am really relaxed about Ole unlike when there was all the pressure that came with last 3 managers. Like Ole's signings so far (even James as LW back up).
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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There is a reason why some people think that Ole is not good enough. He spent 80 odd million on Maguire who was a PL player and it has not worked out well so far. If you play a high press you need better CBs. It is silly to blame Woodward or the Board for that. They are not going to refuse the same for another player in another position if Ole had wanted to get that player.
We do not play well. That is a fact. Our movements off the ball have been terrible. yes we beat City a couple of times too but that was because they were so stupid and let us have that space behind their defence. yes on their day our three forwards can beat any defence but that is true with some other clubs too.
It is silly to even think of comparing Klopp to Ole. Klopp had won many significant trophies with a smaller German club and even his first season at Liverpool, you can see the difference in his style of play.
If Ole is not good enough to win the PL and the CL(I do not think he is) then why keep him? This is the question.
We do not play well. That is a fact. Our movements off the ball have been terrible. yes we beat City a couple of times too but that was because they were so stupid and let us have that space behind their defence. yes on their day our three forwards can beat any defence but that is true with some other clubs too.
It is silly to even think of comparing Klopp to Ole. Klopp had won many significant trophies with a smaller German club and even his first season at Liverpool, you can see the difference in his style of play.
If Ole is not good enough to win the PL and the CL(I do not think he is) then why keep him? This is the question.
So the vote stayed the same, circa 74%, after we got beat by Crystal Palace AT HOME, yet when we win a tricky away match, and in Fergie time as well the vote goes down to 72%, there's some seriously funny feckers voting in here that's for sure.
Bobcat, this is an absolutely brilliant post, a lot of what you speak of I've been trying to say in lots of my posts, but never as precise and well laid out as you have.
Total respect my friend.
Who said anything about getting rid? And if this other person who I've praised so highly is Klopp then you've got that right. Undoubtedly the best manager in the world and to try and compare his stats with Ole then for me it's just plain stupid.
Why do we have to compare? It's very simple. We judge Ole on his merits and his merits alone. I don't think it's that hard a concept to grasp.
I simply don't think it's healthy to compare managers/ players stats with anyone else.I'm setting myself up for "lolz Ole fanboy red tinted glasses" type comment or thinking from the Ole out brigade but that's ok, I don't mind
I do think though that good does come from it because it's much more in line with reality to compare the teams results now to those that made successful rebuilds in a similar time frame. It shows you that we are on the right track and that's important. Obviously it doesn't guarantee that the progression continues in the same way going forward, that remains to be seen.
As I've already replied to matriac, any manager/ player should be judged on their own merits and not on anyone elses.
Maguire is still our best CB by a mile, and it was not Ole who spent 80 million on him, he gives them a list of targets and then its up to the representatives of the club to get those player. Believe it or not, the manager does no sit on a big sack of money as he can spend as he likes, the transfer fee, wages and shit like that are agreed upon by the clubs, its not the manager who decided that. No doubt 80 million was fecking expensive, but recent history shows we have a tendency to overpay massively (50 million for Fred for example). So its not silly to blame Ed for that, because its he and his pals that does the transfer negotiations, not the managers
Everyone agrees we were fecking shit in out two first games, but we were good enough for 3rd last year, that has to count for something right?
That bolded part is just arguing in bad faith. We only beat City because they were shit? Noted. Every time we beat someone its because they are shit. And that part about Klopp is just wrong. He won feck all with Mainz and Dortmund is hardly a "small club" and what significant trophies did he win with Liverpool his first year? 8th place trophy? (4th place trophy his first full season)
That was the best I've seen United since SAF. It was actually objectively good football we played. Funny how having good and fit players in creative positions tends to take care of these patters of play.
I thought we didn't play a high press and that was one of the problems
It's the manager who decides what players to what positions at United. Yes the board can deny him the players he wants but they don't decide on the footballing side on what players are needed.
You can't play a high defense line with slow boats. This is the exact reason why Jose wanted Maguire. He wants to be defensive.
No.Jesus
But its a bit disingenuous to say "Ole spent 80 million on Maguire". He wanted him yes, but hes not the one that signs the deals. Jose also wanted him and we could have gotten him a year before for 60 (50?) million, but the club said no, Jose had a meltdown and we end up signing him a year later anyway for much more.
And i dont really think Ole wants to play with a high line always, he did at times with Molde and has done here as well, but nothing suggests thats what he wants to go forward with really. And besides, you can be a relatively slow CB and still work in a high line. The key for any CB playing in high line is being able to beat the striker(s) in a physical duel and read the game, not beat them in a foot race. Of course its not a drawback to be fast, but being positioned correctly is much more important
Either way, playing a high line is pretty fecking risky in any case even if you have good (and fast) CB's. Wenger always did that vs Fergie and in the later years he had his number and then some
When did Klopp get to a CL final in his first full season anywhere?
When does this transition finish exactly? We have been in transition since the Moyes debacle and every manager gets given the same excuse. How come other top teams don't have 7 years transition. The amount we have spent over the last 7 years we ought to have one of the top 5 teams in Europe.
If Solskjaer fails to get top four, I think they'll pull the trigger. The fact they did not back him just means the next poor sod is likely to suffer the same fate.
This i agree with you. If they don't back the manager he is not going to win trophies.
But how many of us would have accepted Henderson and Wijnaldum in our midfield before they went to Liverpool?
I dont know, but the failures of former managers, and more importantly the board cant be put at Oles feet. If you are going to use that kind of logic you might as well say it took Klopp 30 years to win a league title. The reason we have spent so long is because we have switched managers every two years and wasted a feckton of money with little to show for it
The transition is done when we have a team capable of challenging for the PL/CL again
would give him to xmas, so far its been a disaster for the performances, and yes the win is all that matters but we wont always get that lucky, top 4 should be the bare minimum this season and depends how this last week of the transfers goes it might put more pressure on him.
I’ve not read through the last pages, so this might have been posted before. But it shows the magnitude The job Ole has to do. You might want to pretend you know tactics and patterns of play. But THIS IS THE JOB.
https://theathletic.com/2095004/2020/09/28/rafael-twin-manchester-united-van-gaal-sanchez/
https://theathletic.com/2095004/2020/09/28/rafael-twin-manchester-united-van-gaal-sanchez/
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But it is! Some media outlets want blood. And a good group of supporters want the cycle to continue. As to why, they only know themselves
If Ole keeps on buying only the most expensive players in every position he’ll only have nine players for the same amount of money (before you start doing the math, I’m counting on Sancho increasing the average player cost if he comes). There’s a strength in buying quantity and making them quality, something Ole hasn’t shown yet.
That is not how it works! Ole deliver his priorities and a list of players. What they cost, even the contract of players staying is not up to him. Every manager want the players yesterday, so the time spent getting them is not up to him either. He just have to back the players he has and the hierarchy public either way...
And since I’ve just reached my daily quota and can’t respond further.
The club has set their target on where they want to be. The manager have said what is needed. Unfortunately, that cost money. The budget, and how much they can sacrifice pocketing in their own pockets is up to them. We are not playing FM manager, and everything Ole has put forward in the media has been right. We are pulling youngsters from our ranks, and can’t afford buying projects reaching them goals. Our squad and squad depth is poor. And I think most recognise we desperately need a top right winger. A left back, center back and a striker. Plain as day. What they cost is not up to the manager. But the quality needed is.
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Obviously I know he doesn’t decide the prices of players but he’s an idiot if he just gives Woodward a list without considering the potential cost of the players in relation to how many players he wants to add to his squad. Do you think that he’s that stupid that he thinks he’ll get 18 players for 500 million if his targets are in the AWB, Maguire, Sancho category?
The only cheap player he’s bought so far has been James and he’s hardly made him a world beater. If anything he’s regressed below what he was at Swansea because he hasn’t been able to adapt to the higher level or his playing style doesn’t suit the opponents we tend to face, which is the manager’s job to identify before he asks for the player.
If he wants to replace an entire squad for the same amount of money that Klopp did, he’ll have to spend an average of 30 million (dollars) on 13 consecutive players. With his preferred target for his sixth incoming transfer costing around 130 million dollars that’ll give him 170 million dollars to spend on 12 players if he wants to replace an entire squad with the same amount of money that Liverpool did.
Or do you think that the board will back him with 13 £75m players? You need to be realistic when asking for players. If you want three players, sure you can splurge on the most expensive players, but if you need to replace an entire squad you can’t hunt the same players then, can you? At least not if you expect to get anything done within a reasonable (or average for a manager) timeframe. And most importantly, if you do the former and chase the expensive players, then you can’t moan if you don’t get to replace the entire squad before your time’s up because you made that choice yourself.
Last season City failed because of Laporte getting injured and having no replacement for Kompany. so they sign Ake and Dias. Liverpool needed a creator that sits deep so as not to disrupt their front 3, and a rotational striker with goals in him and they brought in Thiago and Jota. Chelsea signed half of Europe after finishing behind us by a fanny hair. Even Spurs resigned one of the best player in the world on a risk free loan deal.
We're completely mismanaged as a football club, and unless something serious changes (it won't) Ole is destined to fail in the same way Mourinho and LVG did.
We're completely mismanaged as a football club, and unless something serious changes (it won't) Ole is destined to fail in the same way Mourinho and LVG did.
All those players besides Havertz came in for reasonable fees. The target we're going after is too expensive, we need to adjust. I hope the manager hasn't said Sancho or no one.
Those guys have spent an outrageous amount of money to take us nowhere.
Well we will know on Sunday what happens when we play Spurs.
I see. Obviously I don't share your more optimistic appraisal of the Glazers and Woodward, and what they have offered our managers so far. True, funds have been made available, but not consistently. It seems like Ole is being failed now, and Mourinho was not backed before his third season either. There are other possible explanations for this, and I suppose it is technically still a bit premature to make any final assessment on the current window, but I will be amazed if we pull off anything of substance in the one week that's left. If you want a project of the scope we have at this club to succeed, you have to consistently deliver on the squad development side, otherwise you'll be undermining your own work at every turn.
Though I would argue there is quite a bit of a knowledge gap, when trying to work out whether or not our managers have been backed in the transfer market. Did Van Gaal really want the signings that he got? Did Jose? They definitely got some signings they wanted, like Memphis, Schweinsteiger, Zlatan, Lukaku. What about some of the others though? Did Jose ask for Lindelof, Pogba or Fred? Mkhitaryan? I could see him signing Bailly too, but I still doubt that he asked for someone like Pogba. It doesn't feel at all like a Mourinho signing. So assuming the manager doesn't always get what he wants at United, who signs those players and why? And how does it impact the managers project?
I'm not sure I understand why you're willing to be patient with Ole based on what you write here. If you're saying that he signed two players, that don't fit his vision, and he has a lot of players that he can't make use of because of the confines of that vision, wouldn't that be an argument to be squarely placed in the "against" column, when trying to assess his work so far?
Also I know the idea of our academy being a shining light for the future is a big thing amongst United supporters, but take someone like Laird as an example. He has barely played a match at first team level, and yet you're mentioning him now as someone to count on for the immediate future. I just don't think it works like that in anything but cases of exceptional talent like Greenwood. And Bailly can look good, but then he decides to tackle someone with his spine. The guy appears mental most of the time. Which in my opinion is exactly what you don't want in a central defender.
I'm glad to see the poll numbers so good for him, buzzing to be back in the CL and build on the last win.
Last year the pundits were full of "winning without playing well is the sign of a good team".
I think a lot of people just forget that this applies to us also, just because the win was scrappy doesn't mean spirit and potential isn't there.
Last year the pundits were full of "winning without playing well is the sign of a good team".
I think a lot of people just forget that this applies to us also, just because the win was scrappy doesn't mean spirit and potential isn't there.
Yes I do not think Jose wanted everyone but Pogba maybe he did want? Would it be any different if Jose got Maguire? Would it still be Lukaku playing as CF and Martial sold?
Ole does not seem at all stupid so I don’t know why half your argument is about that.
He knows funds are limited and he wants to get as many good players as possible with the money we’re willing to spend. At least some of the money has to go on players who will challenge immediately for a place in the team. Some can be invested in players for development.
Don’t know why you’re hammering James - he’s young and was inexpensive. No reason he can’t have a successful loan and come back to challenge for a place.
I have no problem with Ole’s transfers in fact I think they’ve been good and no doubt more good ones to come.
Is Bruno Fernandes and DVB a joke to you?
Was Carrick a coach with Jose at United?
Bleedin love Rafael. Never should have sold him. Great interview that
I doubt they will sack him. Ole is the type of manager they want. They won't back him and he won't cry to the media, he will get on with his job and see if he can make use of anything from the academy.
That said, I believe Ole will make Top 4 especially if the injuries are not as bad as last season. What I will advise Ole though is focus on getting Top 4 and ignore the cup competitions.
I'd argue the bigger issue is appointing the wrong manager every time. Moyes had no chance, LVG would have been a great choice in the 90's, Mourinho basically hates being a manager now and OGS has no experience at this level.
Another big issue is giving a free reign to these managers to sign whoever the feck they want.
Apart from LVG I don't think most of the others were that bad. Fellaini served his purpose. Lukaku was very good during the year we came second. Herrera was good too. Lindelof is a good back up and I agree that neither Bailly nor him has been a success so far. Mata was not a success for me and I really wonder why he is still here. Dalot I think was a junior player? Sanchez I still feel is an Edward buy and Mikhi was a disappointment I agree.
I think Keane highlighted it perfectly no top four then Ole hits the door. I cannot see us challenging for the league with him as a manager unless he shows drastic improvement in allowing the team to perform consistently at a high level.
So far we seem to be very reactive to the opposition. While some tactical fluidity is needed I often feel like our quality of football is so poor that we will struggle to transition from being top 4 to a top 2. That is of course if the club's ambition is to win. If the Glazers are happy with us throwing our weight around just getting a UCL place he will be here for a considerable amount of time.
So far we seem to be very reactive to the opposition. While some tactical fluidity is needed I often feel like our quality of football is so poor that we will struggle to transition from being top 4 to a top 2. That is of course if the club's ambition is to win. If the Glazers are happy with us throwing our weight around just getting a UCL place he will be here for a considerable amount of time.
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