Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Forevergiggs1]

I have no issues with that so long as the club decides that in advance and in private and confidentially. But that means also getting players Nagelsmann wants in the summer so the talks would have to be done early too.
I still think if he gets a top class coach and if he listens to him we can be much better.

I agree with what you're saying in general but for me we don't need a top class coach to make up for Oles shortfalls. What we need is a top class coach AND a top class manager if we're serious about getting back to being one of Europe's elite sides again.

It's true Ole is being hindered by lack of transfers and an inadequate coaching staff but a good manager can only get so much out of this team no matter how good the coaching staff are but a great manager can have a much greater influence than the sum of its parts. In other words a great manager even with the current coaching staff would have us playing a lot more fluid football on a more regular basis because at the end of the day we do have a very good starting 11 and a great manager can get the extra mile out of the more average players, something I think Ole is incapable of.

 

[georgipep]

Now this is just getting silly.

This type of nonsense just makes these threads polarised and toxic.

Let's not throw shit at each other.

Whoever invents the "throw shit at someone over the Internet" gets my eternal vote and dedication. I have a long list waiting for that product...

 

[RedSky]

Whoever invents the "throw shit at someone over the Internet" gets my eternal vote and dedication. I have a long list waiting for that product...

Until then you have to leave it for us to sort out. Which was done.

 

[Denis79]

Now this is just getting silly.

This type of nonsense just makes these threads polarised and toxic.

Let's not throw shit at each other.

Also makes it very hard for the 'non-polarized' to have a discussion going without being thrown in to one of the brackets. Both sides make good points and I think anyone putting their pride aside and looking at it objectively would see that.

It has somehow become the standard to attack the poster instead of the argument, now that's Trump like no matter what side you're on.

 

[Chairman Steve]

Unless he goes winless for 4-5 consecutive games, I’ll give him until Christmas before passing judgement. It has to be a lot better than Palace and Brighton though and IF he gets Sancho and Telles, then he really has to deliver and that argument of him not being backed is off the table for me. He would have been backed and these are his players.

I’m not buying “Poor Ole has been stitched up by the board/the players/both” as an excuse for poor results and poor performances if that does happen, especially when he’d have spunked £100m on one of the best young attackers in world football.

 

[Untd55]

So you dont think Brighton playing 20 matches less last season (excluding internationals) and getting more rest until the new season started could have played a part in us looking more sluggish ?

No, I don't. Last season is completely irrelevant now as it only takes a week at maximum to recover from any form of exercise (Per game: 3 days to fully recover from a match, 2 days for muscular recovery and 1 extra for chemical).

It being over the course of a season is irrelevant after a month. The only time a packed schedule is relevant is during the period of the packed schedule, where injuries or long-term muscular damage etc. can happen due to overplaying (If that didn't happen, then it is completely irrelevant). That argument made more sense last season, but, again, most teams had packed schedules.

The only player who has even been mentioned to have an injury is Rashford, and even that is just speculation; not confirmed.

People also seem to forget we had a two-month break incorporated into last season and we had a winter break on top of that (first time).

There will be some difference, yes, but the difference should be verging on negligible.

 

[Mainoldo]

Unless he goes winless for 4-5 consecutive games, I’ll give him until Christmas before passing judgement. It has to be a lot better than Palace and Brighton though and IF he gets Sancho and Telles, then he really has to deliver and that argument of him not being backed is off the table for me. He would have been backed and these are his players.

I’m not buying “Poor Ole has been stitched up by the board/the players/both” as an excuse for poor results and poor performances if that does happen, especially when he’d have spunked £100m on one of the best young attackers in world football.

If he lost 5 in a row he wouldn’t get sacked and we’d see statements like I need to see how he does in this circumstance etc.

 

[Swearing Budgie]

I strongly disagree with you. Man City looked shit and very tired. They scraped a win with twice the squad we have. Real Madrid have looked shit. Inter have looked shit. Dortmund have looked shit. Chelsea have looked shit. Only team I have seen looking good is Bayern. And Everton. This is a very strange season, and you see our players struggling. But that is on the manager? Seriously? You want him out after two games? Just wow! Knee jerk and short sight at its finest

How come Bayern didn't look shagged out after the CL final?

Our lads are always either not match fit due to too few matches, or knackered from playing too many.

Maybe we should concentrate on getting bombed out of the CL and other cups early doors so we don't have to play too many matches this season...

 

[FatherWolff]

How come Bayern didn't look shagged out after the CL final?

Our lads are always either not match fit due to too few matches, or knackered from playing too many.

Maybe we should concentrate on getting bombed out of the CL and other cups early doors so we don't have to play too many matches this season...

I dont know. Only thing I know they have a deeper squad and rotated more. They generally look fitter. As to why I don’t know. I don’t pretend to either. They might run on adrenaline from winning everything and will collapse in a few months. Who knows. This is a totally new situation for everyone.

But what I do know, our players look shot. They make a lot of silly mistakes, just like in those other teams I mentioned. Two games in, no one knows who will pick up or go down in this league.

 

[red4ever 79]

Unless he goes winless for 4-5 consecutive games, I’ll give him until Christmas before passing judgement. It has to be a lot better than Palace and Brighton though and IF he gets Sancho and Telles, then he really has to deliver and that argument of him not being backed is off the table for me. He would have been backed and these are his players.

I’m not buying “Poor Ole has been stitched up by the board/the players/both” as an excuse for poor results and poor performances if that does happen, especially when he’d have spunked £100m on one of the best young attackers in world football.

Are you saying he hasnt been backed? Since being made permanent manager in March 2019 the club have spent 15m on James, 50m on AWB and 80M on Maguire, then in January he had Bruno in Jan for an initial £46.5 million plus (£21.1 million) in potential bonuses. This summer he has had VDB for 35m. That is 240m in 18months on 6 players. Surely we should start to see a better performance by now?

 

[fps]

Ole isn't a title caliber manager. He's a top 4/Europa League level manager.

He's not clueless like some say. He's also not the 2nd coming of Klopp like some hope he will be.

Until he finished 3rd and got to the semi finals of the Europa League in his first full season, many had him down as a pub league manager. There needs to be more of a developed viewpoint than “he has done this so will always only do this or worse.”

 

[Chairman Steve]

Are you saying he hasnt been backed? Since being made permanent manager in March 2019 the club have spent 15m on James, 50m on AWB and 80M on Maguire, then in January he had Bruno in Jan for an initial £46.5 million plus (£21.1 million) in potential bonuses. This summer he has had VDB for 35m. That is 240m in 18months on 6 players. Surely we should start to see a better performance by now?

Not at all. He absolutely has been backed but there are fans who still say he hasn’t been because we haven’t bought Sancho yet, and will be ready to use the excuse “Ed fecked him by not giving him money” if results don’t go well, rather than question his managerial ability.

 

[red4ever 79]

Not at all. He absolutely has been backed but there are fans who still say he hasn’t been because we haven’t bought Sancho yet, and will be ready to use the excuse “Ed fecked him by not giving him money” if results don’t go well, rather than question his managerial ability.

Got you. He has been backed by the club and can have no complaints when he is eventually fired. It's a results based industry.

 

[Eplel]

The question is not whether he's been backed or not. Week in, week out, teams with much worse rosters are outplaying us in the field. If we need to spend a billion pounds on superstars so that Brighton don't overrun us, then Ole is not the man for the job.

 

[OrcaFat]

No, I don't. Last season is completely irrelevant now as it only takes a week at maximum to recover from any form of exercise (Per game: 3 days to fully recover from a match, 2 days for muscular recovery and 1 extra for chemical).

It being over the course of a season is irrelevant after a month. The only time a packed schedule is relevant is during the period of the packed schedule, where injuries or long-term muscular damage etc. can happen due to overplaying (If that didn't happen, then it is completely irrelevant). That argument made more sense last season, but, again, most teams had packed schedules.

The only player who has even been mentioned to have an injury is Rashford, and even that is just speculation; not confirmed.

People also seem to forget we had a two-month break incorporated into last season and we had a winter break on top of that (first time).

There will be some difference, yes, but the difference should be verging on negligible.

I am not sure how you quantify the difference but given the fine margins games are decided by, it may not be negligible. The time to pass meaningful judgment is several matches into the future.

 

[NinjaZombie]

Watching the Sheffield Utd and Leeds game right now. Both are playing better football than we did these last two games.

 

[georgipep]

Watching the Sheffield Utd and Leeds game right now. Both are playing better football than we did these last two games.

What? I am a fan of Wilder's style but if we play that way, it will be a fan and media onslaught on the defensive style.

And I'm watching the game too. Leeds are not playing well at all, completely suffocated by Sheffield.

Even if you are frustrated, try to be a tiny bit objective and not lie.

 

[Withnail]

What? I am a fan of Wilder's style but if we play that way, it will be a fan and media onslaught on the defensive style.

And I'm watching the game too. Leeds are not playing well at all, completely suffocated by Sheffield.

Even if you are frustrated, try to be a tiny bit objective and not lie.

I'm not watching but I've a hard time believing Sheffield who can't buy a goal at the moment are playing better than United.

 

[TheGame]

The question is not whether he's been backed or not. Week in, week out, teams with much worse rosters are outplaying us in the field. If we need to spend a billion pounds on superstars so that Brighton don't overrun us, then Ole is not the man for the job.

One league defeat in the last 18 games or so. Please outline all of these games where the teams have outplayed us on a week by week basis. It’s been a difficult start to the season but you are just sprouting nonsense.

 

[Tom Cato]

The question is not whether he's been backed or not. Week in, week out, teams with much worse rosters are outplaying us in the field. If we need to spend a billion pounds on superstars so that Brighton don't overrun us, then Ole is not the man for the job.

We're 2 week into the new season, with a pre-season last a whooping 2 weeks. With players like Pogba not even being able to participate in it. What exactly are you expecting here? We finished third in the Premier League 8 weeks ago.

 

[NinjaZombie]

What? I am a fan of Wilder's style but if we play that way, it will be a fan and media onslaught on the defensive style.

And I'm watching the game too. Leeds are not playing well at all, completely suffocated by Sheffield.

Even if you are frustrated, try to be a tiny bit objective and not lie.

I think there was a passage of play around the 59th minute where Sheff Utd played triangles and exchanged short passes around Leeds' box. Not seen that from our players for a long time.

 

[Tom Cato]

1* No, I don't. Last season is completely irrelevant now as it only takes a week at maximum to recover from any form of exercise (Per game: 3 days to fully recover from a match, 2 days for muscular recovery and 1 extra for chemical).

It being over the course of a season is irrelevant after a month. 2* The only time a packed schedule is relevant is during the period of the packed schedule, where injuries or long-term muscular damage etc. can happen due to overplaying (If that didn't happen, then it is completely irrelevant). That argument made more sense last season, but, again, most teams had packed schedules.

The only player who has even been mentioned to have an injury is Rashford, and even that is just speculation; not confirmed.

People also seem to forget we had a two-month break incorporated into last season and we had a winter break on top of that (first time).

There will be some difference, yes, but the difference should be verging on negligible.

It would be so nice if, when making a blanket statement like this, you didn't make things up.

Here, a small excerpt from the research literature on football fatigue and recovery:

1*
"Mental fatigue is an additional factor to consider in the attempt to explain post soccer match fatigue. When the competitive fixture list is congested, there may be insufficient time in between matches for players to recover psychologically, potentially leading to lack of motivation and mental burnout. A congested schedule can be associated with a lot of travelling, which may lead to the disruption of circadian rhythms (jet lag or arrival during the night) and increase the level of stress induced by restricted motion, unfamiliar sleeping patterns and poorer quality of sleep.

In summary, central fatigue seems to be the main cause of the decline in maximal voluntary contraction and sprinting ability, whereas peripheral fatigue seems to be more related to increased muscle soreness and therefore seems very likely linked to muscle damage and inflammation. Post-match fatigue may be associated with glycogen depletion, muscle damage and mental fatigue."

Remember that time a few days ago when Ole was angry that Mason Greenwood was brought to the English nationals instead of being allowed to rest? That wasn't because he needed to chill out from having a sore body.

Our season ended 8 weeks ago. A lot of our players then went on to national team duty. We've had covid-19 disrupting normal patterns and in Pogba's case, actually causing an infection.

I know that you think you are right and no amount of talking will convince you that you're wrong, but you're legitimately suggesting that players recover to 100% fitness after 72 hours, and the research litterature does not support that statement at all.

In fact, here is the direct quote from the resarchpaper:

2*
"In summary, soccer-related physical performance is impaired immediately after the match and recovers gradually to pre-match levels. Several studies failed to observe a normalisation of physical performance within the 3 days consecutive to a soccer match1,7,11,14, suggesting that performance can be impaired for 72 hours and more. When playing two matches per week, the 3-day recovery time between two successive matches may consequently be insufficient to fully recover. This long-lasting reduction in physical performance testifies the presence of some fatigue processes that recover slowly after the match.

Remember that time after the covid break when the first XI played nearly every game? Yeah. Because we do not have great players after the First XI. VDB certainly helps, McTominay, Fred, Williams to some extent but after that it's just poor, poor, poor or not ready.

Since I know that you'll be both eager to read up to clarify both my statements AND your own: here is the link to the resarch paper I'm quoting, including reference list in the bottom: https://www.aspetar.com/journal/viewarticle.aspx?id=180#.X3CNnmgzaUk

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

The lack of patience here for a manager who has already proven himself more than once on big occasions is mind numbing.

This whole team is coming off of a 3 week turnaround time with a two week international break taking part of it.
Players like Wan Bissaka, Matic and Fred have had to quarantine after coming back from vacations so most of them are unlikely to be fully match fit.
Pogba is recovering from coronavirus.
Maguire had a nightmare of a month running around the Greek justice system.
Rashford had to pull out of the England squad because he himself isn't confident enough for his usual workload.
The board has done no favours in terms of adding fresher legs or more competition for places.

So far the results have been 1 loss, 2 wins and yet the moaning on here is incessant.

 

[Anybody's Guess]

If it was up to some, we would still be stuck with Moyes, waiting for everything to turn magnificent (just like it did with SAF!). The first step towards success is being honest with oneself, and making necessary adjustments. I'd be incredibly surprised if Ole all of a sudden started fielding an XI with a clear cohesive goal, rather than a bunch of individuals where the sum of the parts adds up to predictable stuff which wont work in the long term.

 

[Leftback99]

It's a strange coincidence that strong Ole outers also don't believe that such a thing as match fitness/sharpness exists at Premier League level.

To them I assume there was no reason at all why Brighton started pre season training in mid August when our players were on holiday.

 

[James Peril]

The lack of patience here for a manager who has already proven himself more than once on big occasions is mind numbing.

This whole team is coming off of a 3 week turnaround time with a two week international break taking part of it.
Players like Wan Bissaka, Matic and Fred have had to quarantine after coming back from vacations so most of them are unlikely to be fully match fit.
Pogba is recovering from coronavirus.
Maguire had a nightmare of a month running around the Greek justice system.
Rashford had to pull out of the England squad because he himself isn't confident enough for his usual workload.
The board has done no favours in terms of adding fresher legs or more competition for places.

So far the results have been 1 loss, 2 wins and yet the moaning on here is incessant.

Impressive, that’s roughly 8-9 excuses in one post. The blind faith is strong with this one. Yeah we won against a poor team, that’s not the point. If you don’t get the big picture, there is no point in discussing further. Let’s wait until the inevitable happens and then hope we all agree on the next guy in charge. What we’re served with these players at Man Utd is far, far away from acceptable. Brighton hit the post five times, it could have been a very embarrassing day, we got out of jail. Will you use the same excuses until we actually win and play alright whilst doing it? Then what happens if we’re back to the same crap the next game?

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Impressive, that’s roughly 8-9 excuses in one post. The blind faith is strong with this one. Yeah we won against a poor team, that’s not the point. If you don’t get the big picture, there is no point in discussing further. Let’s wait until the inevitable happens and then hope we all agree on the next guy in charge. What we’re served with these players at Man Utd is far, far away from acceptable. Brighton hit the post five times, it could have been a very embarrassing day, we got out of jail. Will you use the same excuses until we actually win and play alright whilst doing it? Then what happens if we’re back to the same crap the next game?

It’s not blind faith. He took over a complete shit show, and we have made good progress in the past 18 months. He has more than earned our patience this season.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Impressive, that’s roughly 8-9 excuses in one post. The blind faith is strong with this one. Yeah we won against a poor team, that’s not the point. If you don’t get the big picture, there is no point in discussing further. Let’s wait until the inevitable happens and then hope we all agree on the next guy in charge. What we’re served with these players at Man Utd is far, far away from acceptable. Brighton hit the post five times, it could have been a very embarrassing day, we got out of jail. Will you use the same excuses until we actually win and play alright whilst doing it? Then what happens if we’re back to the same crap the next game?

I've actually seen this same 11 players win and play well doing it, it happened for a longer stretch no more than a couple of months ago. I'm also fortunate enough to not have the memory span of a puppy dog and I don't expect real life to be like fifa.

 

[sammsky1]

Impressive, that’s roughly 8-9 excuses in one post. The blind faith is strong with this one. Yeah we won against a poor team, that’s not the point. If you don’t get the big picture, there is no point in discussing further. Let’s wait until the inevitable happens and then hope we all agree on the next guy in charge. What we’re served with these players at Man Utd is far, far away from acceptable. Brighton hit the post five times, it could have been a very embarrassing day, we got out of jail. Will you use the same excuses until we actually win and play alright whilst doing it? Then what happens if we’re back to the same crap the next game?

Keep beating yourself. must be a fun life

 

[crossy1686]

It's a strange coincidence that strong Ole outers also don't believe that such a thing as match fitness/sharpness exists at Premier League level.

To them I assume there was no reason at all why Brighton started pre season training in mid August when our players were on holiday.

When you play FIFA you don’t need a preseason or any conditioning.

 

[Flytan]

I've actually seen this same 11 players win and play well doing it, it happened for a longer stretch no more than a couple of months ago. I'm also fortunate enough to not have the memory span of a puppy dog and I don't expect real life to be like fifa.

The issue is Ole has been here for a long enough time where the team has played horrible for the majority of the time. We played great for a span of 4-5 months of his entire time here. It'd be one thing if one or two players struggle, but the entire team looks like absolute shit for the majority of his time, to me that's a sign of being a mediocre manager. I don't think he's the worst manager in the world but with our inability to invest in good players and get rid of deadwood, we need a manager who can get more than the sum of the parts of the players, and it's obvious to anyone here without blinders on that Ole is not that guy.

 

[Mercurial]

I like Ole mostly because he has some clear sense of progression. He also has a 'healthy' most welcome detoxifying presence in the club, a trait that to a great extent redeem some of his lack of tactical astuteness, granted his record vs top 6 isn't all that bad to be fair. If he can instill a die hard attitude of days past and harden us further I think we can go places down the line.
Is he the man to get us to full glory? Perhaps not, but that can perhaps change, he seem humble and smart. My feeling is the team is young, they trust him and need another season or two of growth, recruitment and cohesion. This team can only get more and more strong if free to follow this type of trajectory. Whatever happens I think he should retain a position in the club as a person close to the players. At the very least, as a teacher of United club culture he is excellent so far with this young team.

 

[Bastian]

I would like these options changed. They do not reflect the current situation. Like, assess at the end of the season, or sack if we're outside the top 4, something better than sack now which doesn't make sense or "finish the rebuild", which seems quite the deceptive phraseology.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

The issue is Ole has been here for a long enough time where the team has played horrible for the majority of the time. We played great for a span of 4-5 months of his entire time here. It'd be one thing if one or two players struggle, but the entire team looks like absolute shit for the majority of his time, to me that's a sign of being a mediocre manager. I don't think he's the worst manager in the world but with our inability to invest in good players and get rid of deadwood, we need a manager who can get more than the sum of the parts of the players, and it's obvious to anyone here without blinders on that Ole is not that guy.

He's been here for a season and a half. He spent the first half season dragging a lifeless team to within a win of a top 4 finish while starting the likes of Lingard, Smalling, Ashley Young and Lukaku.

He started the second season with an injury crisis and ended it with a 3rd place finish, a European semifinal and a cup semi.

He has the players playing for him, trusting him and never looking out of place even against much better teams talent wise. If he was such a mediocre manager the players would be the first ones to know and show that in their performance.

 

[tombombadil]

It's a strange coincidence that strong Ole outers also don't believe that such a thing as match fitness/sharpness exists at Premier League level.

To them I assume there was no reason at all why Brighton started pre season training in mid August when our players were on holiday.

People will believe whatever is convenient for themselves. It's similar to anti abortion protestors demanding abortion being banned for others but not batting an eyelid when getting abortions for themselves or their family. "Oh that's different".

 

[tomaldinho1]

It’s not blind faith. He took over a complete shit show, and we have made good progress in the past 18 months. He has more than earned our patience this season.

Genuinely intrigued, aside from Martial improving and Greenwood's breakthrough where is the 'good progress' you are referring to?

 

[Untd55]

It would be so nice if, when making a blanket statement like this, you didn't make things up.

Here, a small excerpt from the research literature on football fatigue and recovery:

1*
"Mental fatigue is an additional factor to consider in the attempt to explain post soccer match fatigue. When the competitive fixture list is congested, there may be insufficient time in between matches for players to recover psychologically, potentially leading to lack of motivation and mental burnout. A congested schedule can be associated with a lot of travelling, which may lead to the disruption of circadian rhythms (jet lag or arrival during the night) and increase the level of stress induced by restricted motion, unfamiliar sleeping patterns and poorer quality of sleep.

In summary, central fatigue seems to be the main cause of the decline in maximal voluntary contraction and sprinting ability, whereas peripheral fatigue seems to be more related to increased muscle soreness and therefore seems very likely linked to muscle damage and inflammation. Post-match fatigue may be associated with glycogen depletion, muscle damage and mental fatigue."

Remember that time a few days ago when Ole was angry that Mason Greenwood was brought to the English nationals instead of being allowed to rest? That wasn't because he needed to chill out from having a sore body.

Our season ended 8 weeks ago. A lot of our players then went on to national team duty. We've had covid-19 disrupting normal patterns and in Pogba's case, actually causing an infection.

I know that you think you are right and no amount of talking will convince you that you're wrong, but you're legitimately suggesting that players recover to 100% fitness after 72 hours, and the research litterature does not support that statement at all.

In fact, here is the direct quote from the resarchpaper:

2*
"In summary, soccer-related physical performance is impaired immediately after the match and recovers gradually to pre-match levels. Several studies failed to observe a normalisation of physical performance within the 3 days consecutive to a soccer match1,7,11,14, suggesting that performance can be impaired for 72 hours and more. When playing two matches per week, the 3-day recovery time between two successive matches may consequently be insufficient to fully recover. This long-lasting reduction in physical performance testifies the presence of some fatigue processes that recover slowly after the match.

Remember that time after the covid break when the first XI played nearly every game? Yeah. Because we do not have great players after the First XI. VDB certainly helps, McTominay, Fred, Williams to some extent but after that it's just poor, poor, poor or not ready.

Since I know that you'll be both eager to read up to clarify both my statements AND your own: here is the link to the resarch paper I'm quoting, including reference list in the bottom: https://www.aspetar.com/journal/viewarticle.aspx?id=180#.X3CNnmgzaUk

It is understandable during all those games coming thick and fast you would get knackered mentally, you are right and I didn''t take that into account.

But, if they are struggling with mental fatigue, I would question whether they have a weak mentality if it takes a month to get over that. Most people aren't allowed a month off from work, which is plenty of time to recharge.
I doubt their sleeping patterns were affected for Premier League games. European competitions, yes, but that was even reduced due to holding the entire competition in one country.

Comment number 2 - If you are playing two games a week you can't possibly have 3 days rest between games, anyway, so that doesn't really counter the argument of only three days is required for full recovery (which has been argued by other sources, but it depends on what you read I suppose.). So, I'm not surprised there will be consequences for that because exercise is a good way of getting injured. I just cannot believe you need a month to recover physically unless you are injured, and there has been nothing to say our players are all injured.

 

[Bebestation]

I feel like its unfair to sack Ole unless he actually fails at his requirments.

We can aim to read the gap in our games all we want as fans on their arm chair - but we dont have a full understanding of what is going on, do we?

However, if Woodward isnt going to let Ole spend money on the players he wants then we might aswell let him go. He isnt going improve the players we have a further step up.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

It’s not blind faith. He took over a complete shit show, and we have made good progress in the past 18 months. He has more than earned our patience this season.

This place ‘earned our patience’. **** Caf.

 

[VorZakone]

Here we go, the same names of managers who haven't won anything but have the absolute backing of their club.

There was a time when people wanted Marco Rose, Marco Silva or Jardim as the next United manager. It's far more likely these mangers get lucky than it is that they're elite.

This is an odd argument. I'm not anti-Ole but what has Ole won?