Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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So if we get 82 points, score (say) 80 goals, concede about the same as this season, but second place got 93 points, we're not allowed to call that progress?
You expected a team with no preseason to be able to last 8 games? That doesn't happen.
That puts us at 43 points from 28 games against the bottom 14. PPG of 1.54.
Yes.
Not to mention that since we signed Fernandes, United has been the best team in the league.
https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...it-began-when-man-utd-signed-bruno-fernandes/
As punishment?
And then appoint another manager and ask him to finish 85 points and if he also doesn't sack him too. Am i doing it right?
Yes.
As failure
Hopefully you are not in charge of running any business. I fear for it's growth or even existence.
Same thing. Whether that would do United any good probably irrelevant.
I don't get this wild obsession with points.
What difference does it make if you finish 3rd with 65 points or 3rd with 80? Ridiculous argument.
What difference does it make if you finish 3rd with 65 points or 3rd with 80? Ridiculous argument.
You do realize that we got less than 85 points 13 times under SAF between 1993 and 2013? And that was without the two mastodonts we have in the league now, in a much weaker league. Would you sack SAF each season we didn’t win the league or get 85 points (which apparently is the absolute minimum)?
Can we please get a little closer to the finished article before we start setting the bar silly high? It’s like you have a strong desire for next season to be a failure, because 85 points as an absolute minimum isn’t very realistic. Let’s do one step at the time. This squad is young and far from it’s peak, and with some additions the next couple of windows we should be able to challenge for big titles two or three years from now. Have some patience and faith and try to enjoy the ride while we improve.
Ha. 85 points the absolute minimum. You guys are a hoot.
It’s a bit bizarre. Who cares what the points total is, it’s league position that matters at the end of the day.
Because league points means the amount of games you've won/performed well in.
I want the quadruble! If no sorry Ole your time is up!
Seriously though it would be nice with a title and a league title challenge too.
Seriously though it would be nice with a title and a league title challenge too.
Definitely. I don't think the Glazers are any good. But at least they will stay out of things if they're going well. Some owners are an active disaster but the Glazers are just underwhelming.
Keep, no doubt!
There isn't a manager out there that could have done it better with those players.
There isn't a manager out there that could have done it better with those players.
Its a clear indicator of a teams performance, if we end up 3rd with 90 points next season its not the same if you end up 3rd with 66.
I dont know how thats hard to understand.
It's not surprising, there's been some real... characters on this forum in the past 12 months. That's one of the more interesting posts in this thread mind.
It is irrelevant to the current scenario, what SAF achieved.
The bar has been set pretty high the last three seasons and if we are any good we should be closer to the top 2 and given that next year the champions are likely to get 90 plus, I don't see why we shouldn't be aiming to be as close as to them.
Yes, I would sack SAF if we finished 30 points behind the top 2 every year. It's a no brainier.
Challenge after 2-3 years, that's not good enough
If we finish 3rd next year with 70 and city and Liverpool get 95+, do you think we have closed the gap?
This whole hypothetical journey began with the point obsession. Progress is hard to define sometimes. So instead of points, I will put it in these
Lets just say we should be comfortably top 4 next season and should improve more than Chelsea, Tottenham and Leicester.
Let’s also say that we should be going deep in all competitions.
Hard to improve upon what Liverpool and City have been doing so we only need to catch up to them. And I am perfectly capable of being patient for a couple of seasons if we see that we are getting there. Our team is quite young. If it gets to the top in a couple of years, the same core can sustain it for three or so years more. That s good enough to win one or two major trophies.
Good constructive replies... I hope you both are right... tactically I'm not convinced but as I've said my mind is open.
What?
Also, what is this 85 points threshold based off? Points are based on the relative strength/weakness of the league for that season.
It seems like picking a total they don't believe is attainable to me.
That total has been good enough to win the league in the past.
So do we get to keep him or does Ole need to pass a test first?
To be fair, it should be attainable. We finished with 81 points on Jose's second season, and people were not happy and wanted more. Ole has been here for 20 months now, and by next season he would have had 3 transfer window (not counting his first one in Jan 2019 cause we did not sign anyone). It is perfectly reasonable to ask for circa 85 points, I mean, that is what we asked from Jose. Also, there has been a lot of 'since Bruno came we were awesome, so Ole is awesome, the first half of the season does not matter' going on here from "Ole forever" brigade. In truth, if we interpolate the results of the matches with Bruno over the entire season, we end up with 86 points, so I do not see what is wrong with actually asking people that next season, Ole backs up that hypothesis (especially with new signings coming).
It does not really matter that in the past 81 points were enough for the title, the league has changed and the standards have increased. In 4 of the last 5 seasons, the champion had 93+ points, in the last three, the champion had 100, 98 and 99 points. Even an 85 point scenario would likely leave us with more than 10 points gap with the eventual champions.
Personally, I would be happy with a solid finish in top 4 (typically needed 75-80 points for that), but I do not see anything wrong with aiming for more.
This is really crazy. If we averaged the same number of points against bottom 14 as we did against top 6, we would have finished with 87 points.
It is very encouraging that we started defeating the shitty teams near the end of the season. If we can maintain that form we will do well (though I expect to do a bit worse against top teams simply cause that form is not really maintainable).
That's a too simplistic way to see it. It has more to do with the equal or unequal level between the clubs.
With this year table you could say that there's liverpool who are 2 steps further everybody else, then comes city who are 1 step further, and then the rest who are in a normal distribution.
So yeah, points between years don't mean anything, and they are just a way to measure the clubs results in the same universe of games(league).
As an example LVG 66 points were shite and this year 66 points are great
So you think this squad is as good as LFC, City or Real M, Barca, Bayern etc. ?
Do you really think we are going to challenge for PL and CL next season (ending 2021)?
Do you really think we should be on that level already summer 2021?
So us challenging for these trofies summer 2022 (2 years from now) isn’t good enough and sackably slow?
If we find ourselves on 85p in the PL and/or challenging for CL next summer it would be a freaking miracle of a season. 2-3 years is the «absolute minimum» of time we need to get there.
Klopp took over in October and came 8th. Ole took over in November and came 5th
For the next two seasons Klopp finished 4th.
Ole first full season he finished 3rd.
Klopp is allowed to build a team and get it running.
Our fans are saying that if Ole finishes 3rd with 85pts he has to go.
Five sentences and one is problematic, unreasonable and suggest certain members of the fan base are toxic.
Welcome to Red Cafe.
For the next two seasons Klopp finished 4th.
Ole first full season he finished 3rd.
Klopp is allowed to build a team and get it running.
Our fans are saying that if Ole finishes 3rd with 85pts he has to go.
Five sentences and one is problematic, unreasonable and suggest certain members of the fan base are toxic.
Welcome to Red Cafe.
Was it the points total people were unhappy about with José, though? Or the way we got those points?
If I remember correctly, and I rarely do, people were unhappy because the points total seemed flattering. The type of football played was the antithesis to attacking football, bar the first few games of the season. And if you play that type of football, people expect it to come with something else (title, title challenge, finals etc) to alleviate the pain of sitting through 50*90 minutes of watching it. Also, his attitude of "this is my best accomplishment as a manager" after that season was a stupid move on his part. Allthough it might be true, I think we all felt that watching City annihilate every team in the league, playing some magical football along the way, was even more painful with how United played that season. Even if it meant 81 points. The title race was just about as open as it was this season. And the manager bragged about it as his biggest accomplishment. "The special one". Throwing everyone under the bus, after parking said bus for the enitre season. The irony.
If we get to 81 points next season, but convert to a team of the José ilk style wise, I'd be very unhappy. That's progress points wise, but regress in almost every other aspect I appreciate as a football fan.
EDIT: Also, people were very, very unhappy with how we played in the Champions League. We lost, deservedly so, in the round of 16 against Sevilla. The absolute low point of the season. Does anyone really remember 17/18 fondly? I honestly have better memories about this season than that one (although that might be recency bias).
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I think you mean extrapolate but yes your last point is a reasonable target unlike a hard target of 85 pts or bust. That was devoid of any context but I can see that poster has clarified it somewhat.
Not sure about the Jose reference and I really don't want to take about him but nobody asked Jose for a points total, as far as I know.
Extrapolating an unbeaten run out to a 38 game season is a dangerous game. We're not going to go unbeaten for a full season in the PL.
My point was we don't know how many points will be required to challenge. If other teams improve the winner may not get to 99/100.
I personally can't see those kind of totals lasting. The gap will close a bit I feel, and it's extremely hard to keep up that level of performance, besides the fact that Liverpool are long overdue an injury crisis and surely teams will get better at dealing with them and there's also the possibility they'll lose a bit of that hunger.
Setting points total targets is quite frankly bizarre to me but as you say, with the right additions, I'd expect us to be comfortably in top 4 next season.
Ah yeah but that was just down to Man United's football heritage.
The situation was very different in the first half of the season and you know it. We started the season with 2 capable midfielders (Pogba and McT) who both got injured pretty much straight away. The other options were:
Matic: looked finished at that point
Fred: had been a disaster up to then
Andreas: is just a bad footballer
Lingard: had regressed horribly.
We had a relegation standard midfield for quite a while. What actually saved us in a lot of ways was the fantastic work Ole and the staff did to bring Fred from a complete disaster to a good PL midfielder. Once Scott got fit and they developed a partnership we went from a relegation midfield to at least a competitive PL midfield.
Unfortunately whilst competitive, it was still completely devoid of creativity because Andreas Pereira is a terrible footballer who would struggle to get a game for any side in this league imo. Only when Bruno arrived to round out the 3 did we actually have a full midfield capable of competing at the upper end of the table.
Given how little Ole had to work with in this regard it seems kind of insane to me to throw the first half of the season at him. Anyone with a brain in their head in August/September knew an injury to Scott or Pogba was going to leave us in serious trouble. The progression in our results and performances lines up pretty much perfectly with the standard of midfield we had available at each point in the season. Scraping 3rd was a fantastic result in the circumstances.
Oh yeah, that's right. Sorry, forgot about that.
"I sit in this chair with Porto, Man United out, I sit in this chair with Real Madrid, Man United out. So is not something new for the club."
81 points? I don't fecking care. Give me 85, and I don't fecking care. 90? Jog on, lad. The man was a total disgrace.
In my opinion, the total number of points accrued under a particular season isn’t the best metric to measure progress. It relies on variables such as the general performance levels of other teams (performances fluctuate across the Top 6 in any season for the exception of the top 2 in recent seasons) and overall schedule of matches played, including injuries to us and other teams etc
There is only one measure of definitive progress and that is winning trophies.
There is only one measure of definitive progress and that is winning trophies.
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