Does that include Ole's stint at Cardiff? I'm in support of Ole, just curious.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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Just because that worked with Juve doesn't mean it will work with us. And they have been extremely lucky with others dropping off ala Milan/Inter/Roma. We should have hired a DOF but that is not on Ole is it now?
I just don't understand why we should change if things are good? And yes they are good. They can be better obviously I agree but trusting Ole and not changing managers on whim will probably make more sense. So you are willing to bring in a new manager who may not be Pep/Klopp/SAF (and I don't know what that means since they were not the world's best when they were signed.. Pep had never managed before. SAF had been in the Scottish league; Klopp was a success yes) but not willing to give a chance to Ole despite the positive signs? Good idea. Lets sign the next flavour of the season coach. Also you do understand that a new manager will implement his own style/tactics/players and that will take more time? He is bound to have issues and I'm sure within a year you lot will be out again saying we should replace him now without giving him a fair shot? Cause this is what is happening with Ole.
Pros after a full season:
I think he's done enough to deserve another season. No point speculating what-ifs about new managers coming in and improving us. Even if we hire Pep or Klopp tomorrow it will be another transition period.
- Great transfers - This is partially on the club as well and we seem to have found a good transfer strategy so it's not clear to me that we won't make these signings post Ole. But credit where it's due.
- Improved players - Martial, Rashford, Shaw, Fred and McTominay have definitely improved over the course of the season.
- Solid big game results. If we continue to get these results against the top six and demonstrate the same level of capability at dispatching weaker sides, top four should be a breeze next year. The occasional draw against Southampton / WHU won't really matter. Every club has those days.
- Football passes the eye test. We look dangerous no matter what xG says.
- Great defence. 3rd in the table at goals conceded. You can rip into Maguire and Lindelof all you want but the table ultimately doesn't lie.
- Managed all of this without Rashford, Pogba and Bruno for significant lengths of the season.
- Shit subs. Takes too long to make 'em even when it's clear to everyone and their dog that a change needs to be made. Case in point Rashford against WHU yesterday.
- Gets occasionally caught out tactically. His plan A is usually good but if opposing managers change something tactically, the side takes too long to react. Off the top of my head, Everton, Liverpool, Arsenal, City hammering in the league cup come to mind.
- Poor squad management: He did all that work improving players like Fred and McTominay but gave them no game time after the restart. They have basically had no match fitness at all and got thrown into high pressure situations. We should've rotated a lot more than we did even if we dropped a point here and there early on. Matic simply should not play 2x a week - his legs are shot. Conserve him like we conserved Rio. Even earlier on in the season when it was clear that we had razor thin squad depth we tried to compete on all four fronts. I'd have abandoned League Cup and FA cup like Pool and just focused on the league / europa. Although all this said, if we manage a result against Leicester and get top four, he's vindicated on this one.
I think he's done enough to deserve another season. No point speculating what-ifs about new managers coming in and improving us. Even if we hire Pep or Klopp tomorrow it will be another transition period.
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No, Ole, LVG, Jose at United. Pep at City, Klopp at Liverpool.
I have a big spreadsheet that has each Managers stats as its interesting to compare the progress. In the next 10 games for example LVG got 16points, Klopp 20, Jose 21, Poch 22 and Pep 27.
Nope not true. I actually wanted to give LVG more time as I could see what we was trying to do, I saw us outplaying Liverpool off the park at Anfield & destroying City 3-0.
But anyway the point is I’m willing to give the right man time. Ole isn’t the right man & there are much much better managers out there
There are multiple things that I disagree with you. First you said we are staying still. If we were staying still we would have been fighting with Arsenal or Spurs for the 7th position, so no we are not staying still in fact have made progress both in league's position and with our performance.
Now you say he is not improving the team's performance. Again if he did not how come we have played so well since Bruno joined. We were god knows how many points behind the 4th spot and Leicester but here we are sitting 3rd, surely we must have done something right and if he was not improving the team we wouldn't have gained so much ground. And even if Leicester and Chelsea are sh*t but still we needed to beat teams to cover the distance so to say he has not improved the team's performance doesn't make one sense.
Now regarding sacking managers even after finishing in top 4. Well I would have sort of agreed with your point if we were continuously winning or challenging for the titles but we have not. So we cannot suddenly replace managers like Juventus or Madrid because the manager is not suddenly challenging for the title. You may hate it but it is not a quick fix. The mess we have made of this club since SAF retired is shocking. Tell me one thing what would you do if tomorrow we hire Poch and he also doesn't help us challenge the title in his first go and we infact are only fighting for top 4 just like this season. Will you ask for him to be sacked too then?
Considering you like to bring Jose a lot, let us go back to history and why this doesn't resemble anything like what he was doing at the end of 17-18 season. Yes we finished 2nd but I feel he started losing it since the Sevilla loss. You could see with his rants and moaning that we are going down and unless the board goes and spends big he will not be satisfied. Every tom dick and harry in summer of 2018 saw that board were stupid in not sacking Jose as he was in a self destruction mode. He had lost the dressing room, there was no way of going up. Nothing resembles like that now. In fact if we don't even get Sancho, Ole will not take the moral down or start acting weird. He will still try his best with what he has.
You have made up your mind he is not going to win us the title or even challenge for it. Fair enough. But imagine a guy after getting Bruno does so well, maybe if we buy sancho and add a quality defender we might improve even more and start producing even better results. Everything is a possibility. Right now he is not going anywhere and that is the truth and a sad one for you.
Why is he not the right man and genuine question - can he do anything to change that opinion (like maybe going on a run of 20 games unbeaten. Man, that will be really something won't it?) or are you lot set in yours ways so much you'll ignore all evidence to the contrary just because he doesn't have a WC history per se?
You could see what LVG was doing with his boring pass sidewise football but can't see the same with Ole? We have scored 5 goals 4 times in last 20 odd games. We had scored 5 3 times since SAF before that in 360 odd games. I just don't understand how you guys don't see it?
We’ll agree to disagree. I’m making points on what’s wrong with our approach your making point and why Ole is the best man to manage Manchester United and in doing so writing off anything the requires moving away from him.
I can’t really debate with someone who’s point is, “Let’s sign whoever the next flavour of the season coach is”.
I can’t really debate with someone who’s point is, “Let’s sign whoever the next flavour of the season coach is”.
Hey I'm trying and so have all others who have replied to you so why not?
Sure. Ole is not the best man but currently how things stand, he should be given a chance. His managing of squad fitness has been dire (how much of that is because of lack of squad depth or just inept management I don't know) and in game management can be improved maybe. But let's agree to disagree. Cheers.
Ok, you’re chairman, what manager is out there that is available and would come to us? Genuine questions as I see numerous posts saying there’s tens of better managers for Man Utd than ole. Who are they and how do you know that they are going to be better and not just crumble like the previous appointments
1) Arsenal and Spurs had to sack there managers mid season. That in itself would make you assuming something wasn’t going right and when things were going wrong for us we was right next to them. However I can acknowledge Ole turned things around especially with the signing of Bruno
2) It also takes time to regress. It took us 7 years and 3 managers. So why so shocked it might take us 7 years and 3 managers to improve. I’m not. It’s the manger bit that you can’t digest. But that’s a you problem.
3) Jose gives me the same signs as Ole. You just can’t see it and you probably didn’t see the problems with Jose after Seville either. But I’m happy to be proven wrong and you can gladly show me your receipts on here? I know mine will stand up.
He’s not going nowhere but neither are we even with Sancho, a new CB and a midfielder. The evidence is there but like many who didn’t see the signs in Jose (even after you claimed they did) people cannot see that we don’t have a well drilled side, we don’t have good fitness levels and we rely too heavily on individual performers to get us over the line. There really isn’t much difference between Jose’s side and this side except we don’t have the cloud of negativity. The game against Chelsea could easily have been the same game against Arsenal 4 years ago when we finished 6th. So that is why I can happily say we are standing still.
You can happily say it but you’re wrong and that’s your problem
I literally named 5 yesterday. I don’t really like the naming of managers though. Prefer it just to be in a thread of its own where it can be discussed properly. You don’t believe in anyone coming in doing a better job than Ole which your reponse to this will show, so what’s the point. But you asked so I’ll deliver:
Pochettino
Tuncel
Rose
Nagelsmann
Ten Hag
Why do I think they will do good and not crumble? Well it depends what crumbling is? I mean right no we are satisfied with 3rd and unpredictable performance and poor squad management. So anything above that is a success really.
We really need to defer this discussion for a couple of weeks. If he gets 4th or wins the EL, then obviously he will still be here next year, even if many of us (including me) harbour doubts about his abilities at this level. If we continue our mini-slump and get neither, then Woodward has a decision to make.
You probably forgot the game.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39760508
Here you go. We set up exactly how we set up now when going against big teams. Someone also said Pep’s first season was worst than Ole’s points wise. It didn’t sound right at the time but the link shows he was on 69points with two games to go.
I agree wholeheartedly about us as a team and the inept coaching we have evident in our tactical approach. But I do think Solskjaer has improved in his management since taking over. The problem with Jose is that we wasn't stagnant we regressed with time. If anything with Ole there has been progress just not enough to merit us giving him absolute surety for leading the club forward.
If we finish top four he deserves another season. If somehow we have no progress as a team next season despite potential transfers he's got to go because as far as I'm concerned, if we add Sancho and another midfielder, we will arguably have the 2nd / 3rd best team in the league in which case the minimal requirement would be to mount a challenge for the title.
I l
nice list of managers though, especially Poch the man who didn’t win anything and finished third in the league in a two horse race.
the others, yes they could well do better and I’m not saying they definitely wouldn’t do a better job but it’s impossible to know
I literally didn’t see your post yesterday.
nice list of managers though, especially Poch
the man who didn’t win anything and finished third in the league in a two horse race.the others, yes they could well do better and I’m not saying they definitely wouldn’t do a better job but it’s impossible to know
I could easily post you a link of a match where we beat Chelsea or city and prove to you that we’re moving forward.
You can’t just base it on one game
You yourself admitted you like to over exaggerate and go over the top and that's what you are doing with your post. So suddenly the FA cup game against Chelsea has become the barometer and you pick that game of all the other games where we have won scoring more 3 or more goals. Don't know what else to say or add when you have made up your mind Ole should be sacked right away. The issue though is you will do the same again next year if Poch also struggles to challenge for the title.
I can counter that with us busting Liverpool’s arse 2-0 at home under Mourinho. Or 4-0 FC?
It was just an example. Stop living off my every word. My point is over the course of the full season. We haven’t progressed any further than where we started. He came in all guys blazing and fell off. He’s not finished off all guns blazing and fell off in exactly the same manor. Does he have to do the same thing 4 times over before we clock on.
I agree with a lot of that. We're practically on the same page.
Where we differ is that I think that we're already very close to the team being ready, summer transfers pending. We have 2 prime aged, top class midfielders, an attacking trio on par with some of the best in Europe (which will be enhanced further in the next window), and a very good defence (at least one of the best in the league statistically) with near prime aged players. I think we need to at the very least challenge next season, and win the season after. And with that view in mind, I think Ole and his management team isn't capable of or ready for that task.
But Ole has done the job needed thus far very well. In fact it's because Ole has done such a great transitional job in terms of transfers and player improvements (and as you said maybe even a year ahead of schedule) that I think our process should be sped up decisively. Even if it comes at a cost which is having to replace Ole, a fan favourite. Because we have to remember that we're all supporting Man Utd and not just Ole, so if at any moment in time letting go of him is in our best interests, we have to do it even if it's painful.
Truth is that we dont know anything. We thought we knew Mou could win us the league. Look how that turned out.
Just admit you don’t like the guy. That’s alright. It’s better than all the other stuff you’re saying about everything from feel god factor to hiring the right guy, at least. Because right now, he is the right guy. In six months, maybe he isn’t. Maybe Poch is the right guy, but We know as much about that as we know about Ole being the right guy, the difference is that one is with us already, and ticking a lot of boxes. Maybe not the exact boxes you’re looking for, but you’re seemingly in denial about where we are as a club compared to 18 months ago.
Crack on if that’s what we’re doing. You brought Selective individual matches into itWhat do you think will change between this season and the next? Besides transfers of course.
Such a poor game to bring up too. Dodgy formation and tactics but worked before, but not taking in the massive elephant in the room and that was degea gifting first and literally firing in the 2and gave us zero chance, without even getting into other factors like players fatigued.
If you going to bring that game up why not bring up the other 3 chelsea matches which we comfortable won, actually hammered them in one of the games.
Its bizarre people questioning him right now, 3rd in the table is the best we could have realistically got this season and are just one win away from it. Some people on here are wired to get wrapped up over a poor performance rather than focusing on the bigger picture of progression
The most crucial part of this is not mentioned though, and that is 'how much of our improvement is down Ole?'.
By which I mean the decisions taken, the approach to rebuilding, the recognition that the culture of the club was damaged, the players moved out and the players purchased. Without those decisions being made, and made correctly, we aren't sitting in 3rd today or even close to it IMO. He has been a massive part of all of this, which logically would mean that replacing him would effectively rip the soul out of the club just to hand it over to someone else.
I wrote something on here weeks ago about how many fans are taking all of these things for granted. They think 'get a decorated, or trendy, manager in and he will do all of those things plus more besides'. I strongly disagree with that notion.
What I do agree with is that, when the time is right and the club absolutely feel that Ole has taken us as far as he can, then sentiment should not come into it. When its time, its time, and we should act quickly. However, we are (again IMO) a million miles away from that. I'm 99% certain that this isn't even in Woodwards thought process right now, regardless of where we finish the season.
This is a tough position to be in because we can say that, based on the past few years in the wilderness, the approach most likely is coming from Ole (and maybe a few heads on the board like SAF, who knows).
With that in mind, it makes it a lot harder to dismiss him even if he cannot challenge, because the direction is coming from him. But then again we must remember that part of Man Utd culture is challenging and winning, so he can't be excused for a lack of ability to do that. So what do we choose? Sticking with a manager who's not up there with the best, but understands our club and is able to make decisions based on that? Or take a risk with another manager more removed from the club's history, but able to deliver trophies at the highest level and take us on another winning journey; even if it's not as spectacular as SAF's.
That's why the calls for a DOF are strong, because if we had someone who understands the club's value's (like Ole) in that role, then we could hire managers and make decisions based on that. Now it's far from guaranteed that we will, so it depends on what each person prefers. I personally think we've needed a modern training ground coach for a while now, so I think there's a small window where we can combine Ole's good work and direction with the benefits of an extremely organizationally oriented coach, without Ole's work being spoiled by overstaying (which I suspect might happen). However, I can understand those who value us sticking to our Man utd way, and Ole is a figurehead of that, as well as a club legend.
The two things I think would be the most preferable would be:
i) Ole hiring a tactical and organizational coach, as well as a top level team around him and he acts as the de-facto DOF while delegating to his highly competent team. That would be the most ideal.
ii) Ole becoming a DOF, and recommending a more organizational top level coach as manager. This is unlikely to happen.
If Ole manages to do the former I think we'll win the league and other competitions, but he hasn't shown signs of going in that direction thus far. It's because of that that I'm advocating moving decisively to take advantage of this window we have where we're very promising and just about ready to challenge, but lacking in things that a top level manager would bring. Even if it means losing our identity again with Ole's departure and having to find it again (or even a new one).
What I do think most would agree with, is that we need an Ole version of a DOF so that we don't have to go through the whole identity thing again and have to rely on one man to bring us back to it.
Why are you so convinced that he can't manage at a high level though? Why is anybody? It doesn't make sense to me.
He has a very good record in the matches against our direct competition, so that cannot be used against him. He had criticism of being unable to break down packed defences, so he bought a player that improved us immensely in this area. He was labelled as a counter attacking coach, but its clear that this was a tactic used to maximise our qualities.
It seems to me that people are moving away from criticisms that can now be debunked by results, and moving towards increasingly murky areas that are based on hindsight. Things like substitutions and squad fatigue etc.
(Good Post by the way)
They can't. The most difficult part of being a Manager is being able to build runs of form, thats what wins you trophies and titles, Ole is pretty good at it. He's also good against the top teams which again is vital for winning trophies.
Whether he can go all the way and get us challenging for the title is debatable, but I do think he can continue the rebuild and push us up another few gears. Patience is required which is something a section of Redcafe seems to struggle with.
It's not that I think he can't ever manage at a high level. Like I said, I think if he made certain changes he could very well win the league and challenge in other competitions.
But more importantly, I just think that the squad right now has a small window where we need to be consistently challenging for the next 4 years in order to get the maximum out of the squad, and I don't think Ole is ready for that yet. If in the end we gain nothing (or relatively little) from some of the very talented and expensive prime-aged players we have right now, all the time, money, and rebuilding effort invested would have been a waste, similar to Pochetinno's time at Spurs. And after that we'd need yet another expensive rebuild.
The other concern is Ole facing machines like Pep's 17/18 & 18/19 City or Klopp's 18/19 & 19/20 Liverpool. Those have the bar a bit too high as they're literally the best managers on the planet, and one of them is backed with similar funds to ours. Assuming Ole keeps on improving and learning he can most likely challenge, but only if not facing that calibre of manager.
The caveat to that is that I'd love us to have that calibre of manager instead and prevent our rivals from challenging us by putting up monstrous campaigns. And that level of manager is probably out there right now, but we just have to be able to identify them and hire them at the right time.
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Its hard to know where the sweet spot is going to be for this group, and I understand your concerns, but I do still feel that changing manager holds just as big a risk as it would be 'gambling' that Ole continues to improve.
Henderson
AWB
Shaw
Rashford
Greenwood
Sancho (fingers crossed)
All very young players who are far from their peak. Maguire, Martial and Fernandes will i suspect hold a good level for some time to come.
I don't see a long or even medium term future for Pogba here, and Matic will obviously need to be replaced, but we have a really good core here and we all agree that Greenwood could well become an immense player. The sky's the limit for him.
Yes that is mainly where we differentiate. I think if given enough time, Ole himself will learn and evolve too. He sure has room for improvement but he still did fairly well with the tools available to him so far. Actually better than I initially predicted.
But on a side note - it’s been pleasant debating with you sir. Cheers!
My pleasure sir. Hopefully you are right because I dont think we'll sack him.Yes that is mainly where we differentiate. I think if given enough time, Ole himself will learn and evolve too. He sure has room for improvement but he still did fairly well with the tools available to him so far. Actually better than I initially predicted.
But on a side note - it’s been pleasant debating with you sir. Cheers!
I'll save this so we can continue this debate next season cheers!
Sounds good!
Is anyone else of the opinion that I have. That is, whether he's the right man or not, he's the first manager since Ferguson who has made me enjoy watching us play, and has made me like many of the players again.
I think decisive action is just as much a virtue as patience even though the latter is usually a lot more revered. Although the fallout after Mourinho's 2nd season did teach a lot of our fans the value of the former.
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