Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Rafaeldagold]

I know what you think but if the other poster is happy to get back into the CL, why get hung up on the points compared to a previous year?

If we get into CL it's job done, it's worth a massive amount of money to the club and we'll be able to attract better players as a result. The young players will also be better again next year.

Bemoaning a points total when we've gone from 9th/10th to 3rd seems wilfully negative to me. You're welcome to your negativity if that's what floats your boat, of course.

It’s not being negative, it’s looking at it rationally to see if Ole really is the best man for the job & looking at the season and seeing if we really have done that well (& yes points total should be looked at- not just league position)

Of course I want us to get Champions League, we need it & the prestige it brings. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t question of If how we got there wasn’t the best & if another manager could take us forward better

 

[Withnail]

Really? Do you think higher or lower point accumulation has nothing to say about progression between seasons?

If all things are equal then yes but they rarely are. Some years 80 pts wins you the title, sometimes it's only good enough for third. There have been a lot of mitigating factors this year.

If we can get finish in the CL spots and bolster the first XI with quality additions I'd expect next year to be much better. If we have another horrific start then questions will rightfully be asked.

 

[Withnail]

It’s not being negative, it’s looking at it rationally to see if Ole really is the best man for the job & looking at the season and seeing if we really have done that well (& yes points total should be looked at- not just league position)

Of course I want us to get Champions League, we need it & the prestige it brings. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t question of If how we got there wasn’t the best & if another manager could take us forward better

To me, you've always seemed to be a bit of a pessimist so forgive me for taking that with a pinch of salt.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

That the Liverpool squad achieved what it has while making minimal changes to the starting eleven is a story in itself. Miraculous fitness coaching or PED's (performance-enhancing drugs)? You decide.

Either way, Klopp is the manager of Liverpool and frankly one of the best in his position worldwide, the comparison with Ole is unfounded. You cannot expect Ole to operate on the same level as Klopp just because you want him to.

No, but I expect Manchester United, with the resources available to them, to be able to find a better manager for the club than this.

In fact, all of Woodward's appointments are below standard. The guy has wrecked Manchester United. Absolutely wrecked it as a football club.

 

[Rash Decision]

What in gods name makes you think that any of these things can't possibly apply to us?

Sure, I'm saying we have a manager that probably isn't good enough for where we want to be, just like Chelsea Arsenal and Spurs. Indeed it applies to us. I'm not excusing the other clubs for being garbage btw. They made mistakes too.

 

[Flexdegea]

He's challenging for top 4 in his first full season. He's doing alright so far.

This and more.


We are in a strange position at the moment, of being undefeated in the league for a good while that's has managed to get us into the position were we are at the moment, where if you asked anyone during lockdown 3rd spot going into last day they would have snapped your hand off.


But no, got massive chunks of people completely losing track of reality, hammering the coach and dreaming up scenarios where leicester are hammering us this Sunday. The same folk in another sentence will hammer the players and manager as bottling it, couldn't make it up.


Can't remember when we got so soft. I'm buzzing for Sunday. Totally in our control. This league run couldnt have went any better.

Would recommend some people go back to last year and have a look where we were at. Was actually people seriously saying we will get relegated

 

[Rafaeldagold]

To me, you've always seemed to be a bit of a pessimist so forgive me for taking that with a pinch of salt.

And I’ve always taken you as a blind optimistic who can’t see the bigger picture but that’s fine

 

[Flexdegea]

Only because Leicester have gift wrapped it for us. It’s a pretty poor points total

You do know what you are saying is the same as me saying we gifted wrapped Leicester that early massive lead in the league last year...........its not a game where everything just stays the same to the end. It's over 38 games where our form has been excellent and has got us in front of Chelsea and Leicester.

 

[kopviolator]

If all things are equal then yes but they rarely are. Some years 80 pts wins you the title, sometimes it's only good enough for third. There have been a lot of mitigating factors this year.

If we can get finish in the CL spots and bolster the first XI with quality additions I'd expect next year to be much better. If we have another horrific start then questions will rightfully be asked.

The mitigating factor is Ole's due overhaul of our average squad and underperforming players. Injuries are part and parcel of football, even if our best playes are sidelined. I have been happy with Ole for the most parts, mostly cause he is cleaning house and he's bringing back entertainment to Trafford which football should always be about. I also know there is alot of work to be done and the results of his work are not yet fully clear. As I said, I think he's on the right track.

But this is one of the biggest clubs in the world, and the fact remains that finishing outside top four is unacceptable anyway you slice it, so is regression. And points after a season are definitely a yard stick for progression, although of course it's not all there is to it.

 

[Mainoldo]

No, I'm confirming (if it even needed confirming) that Ole does not operate on the same managerial level as Klopp.

Klopp is the best and most sought after manager in the game, Ole is not.

Okay. So what do we do about that. Just ride things out.

 

[Withnail]

And I’ve always taken you as a blind optimistic who can’t see the bigger picture but that’s fine

Ha ha I'm literally looking at the bigger picture that you're ignoring with your narrow focus because you decided he was shit months ago.

I never said I didn't have concerns or that he doesn't have a lot to prove but with the way things are going, it's not time to call for the manager's head.

I've explained my position to you before and it isn't based on blind optimism.

 

[midnightmare]

That the Liverpool squad achieved what it has while making minimal changes to the starting eleven is a story in itself. Miraculous fitness coaching or PED's (performance-enhancing drugs)? You decide.

Either way, Klopp is the manager of Liverpool and frankly one of the best in his position worldwide, the comparison with Ole is unfounded. You cannot expect Ole to operate on the same level as Klopp just because you want him to.

It wasn't miraculous - nor was it instantaneous. Klopp brought massive changes to playing staff and fitness was built up. Then he came up against the issue where the team would start flagging and drop off before regaining steam. This season, he's been notably more "pragmatic" and the team is less intense than ever before. It's not "heavy metal football" any more. This, combined with 4 years of work in the same direction on and off the pitch has led to the level they have. It's "not rocket science" and it can't be done overnight. Even so, it needs a dose of luck. Freak injuries can still occur!

I agree which is why many fans have been asking for a DOF for years now. Not that getting one in place is a guarantee either. I agree the DDg stuff shows another way in which our standards are dropping.

Yeah. DoF chatter stopped once our transfers seemed to succeed, but that will always be something people use. That said, look across at Arsenal and Barcelona to see how well the DoFs are doing. Nothing succeeds like success. Clubs of all types exist - and the same club can have different results under different managers. Ultimately, it's the manager that drives it all. Look at the dippers. The structure was ridiculed and the stuff of memes. Same structure is now held up as an example of how to work successfully. That's the difference a manager makes.

Yes agreed. It definitely is a transitional season and as such injuries will hurt us more than normally should. Rashford injury in particular was a blow and of course the Pogba nonsense. I wouldn't go as far as saying managerial excellence, rather a necessary step in the right direction by moving some deadwood towards the door and some decent recruitment. There is a long way to go still.
But 63-66 points is always a disappointment.

It's about the difference in quality between first team and the bench. Even uniformly just-below-excellent quality offers greater flexibility to a manager than exceptional starters combined with crap subs. The smaller the gap, the better the ability to rotate and get through injuries, suspensions, fixture congestion etc. We've just fixed our first team. Now it's about the depth. I expect it to take another year.

 

[Withnail]

The mitigating factor is Ole's due overhaul of our average squad and underperforming players. Injuries are part and parcel of football, even if our best playes are sidelined. I have been happy with Ole for the most parts, mostly cause he is cleaning house and he's bringing back entertainment to Trafford which football should always be about. I also know there is alot of work to be done and the results of his work are not yet fully clear. As I said, I think he's on the right track.

But this is one of the biggest clubs in the world, and the fact remains that finishing outside top four is unacceptable anyway you slice it, so is regression. And points after a season are definitely a yard stick for progression, although of course it's not all there is to it.

I'd agree with that but the regression's already happened. We aren't a title-challenging team and haven't been for 7 years.

People claim about a drop in standards but that's the reality and I don't think a lot of people have accepted that. Currently, we look like we're moving back towards challenging which is why I'm not getting het up about the pts total.

 

[Rash Decision]

The mitigating factor is Ole's due overhaul of our average squad and underperforming players. Injuries are part and parcel of football, even if our best playes are sidelined. I have been happy with Ole for the most parts, mostly cause he is cleaning house and he's bringing back entertainment to Trafford which football should always be about. I also know there is alot of work to be done and the results of his work are not yet fully clear. As I said, I think he's on the right track.

But this is one of the biggest clubs in the world, and the fact remains that finishing outside top four is unacceptable anyway you slice it, so is regression. And points after a season are definitely a yard stick for progression, although of course it's not all there is to it.

Regarding the points total, it is just an indicator of how good we are relative to the rest of the league. A low points total means we aren't that much better than most of the other. Then we must contextualise it by examining whether this is because the league is very strong, or we're just not very good. If it's the former, a low points total isn't something to be too concerned about.

Safe to say however, we're just not very good this season, along with many of the traditional big 6.

 

[AshRK]

It is simple if we bottle against Leicester there is no way to sugercoat it and questions have to be asked. Having said that if we get the job done and end up finishing 3rd or even 4th then fair play to him and the abuse he gets from certain people here will make them look like a rightful fools.

One thing I never understand with the Ole out people is how come they term ole the worst manager in the league even when we are 3rd. Surely the worst manager who just knows how to cheerlead cannot just take a side who finished 6th and take them 3rd and have them play semifinals of domestic competitions. Some can say he has to learn and improve which is valid argument but to say he is the worst ever coach, it's all because of luck, he has not improved anyone are just over exaggerating. I don't get the over exaggeration part. Ok you don't rate Ole, fair enough but why make up facts or say things which are not even true.

 

[glazed]

The breakdown you stated in regards to what the glazers didn’t do right is correct, although partially.

Referring to the bolded parts...
You mentioned the money we spent on transfers, which was A LOT, wasn’t enough. And it was spent badly.

While you’re right that it was spent badly, it was by no means insufficient in any way. Had we spent it wisely, it was enough to put a team together which would have already been back to the top.

I partly agree. It was insufficient in the last days of SAF though, when we could have signed players like Hazard but decided they were too expensive. It was insufficient in that we mostly refused to pay transfer fees for players older than 27 because they lacked resale value. And crucially, it was insufficient in that City spent a lot more.

But the bad spending was more of a problem, I agree. Liverpool and Spurs got a lot more for a lot less. Because of good management.

 

[Random Task]

Okay. So what do we do about that. Just ride things out.

Well, for starters, the comparisons between Klopp and Ole need to stop. Klopp has spent a lot longer in charge of Liverpool than Ole has with United, so he has a distinct advantage in that regard. It's not a fair comparison.

The Liverpool players "cheating" is not so far removed from reality as one might think. PED usage is widespread across the world, schools, colleges, gyms, everywhere. I used (note used) them myself for several years.

 

[Mainoldo]

It is simple if we bottle against Leicester there is no way to sugercoat it and questions have to be asked. Having said that if we get the job done and end up finishing 3rd or even 4th then fair play to him and the abuse he gets from certain people here will make them look like a rightful fools.

One thing I never understand with the Ole out people is how come they term ole the worst manager in the league even when we are 3rd. Surely the worst manager who just knows how to cheerlead cannot just take a side who finished 6th and take them 3rd and have them play semifinals of domestic competitions. Some can say he has to learn and improve which is valid argument but to say he is the worst ever coach, it's all because of luck, he has not improved anyone are just over exaggerating. I don't get the over exaggeration part. Ok you don't rate Ole, fair enough but why make up facts or say things which are not even true.

In that case why sack Mourinho. He took us from 6th to second and an FA cup Final. So was he a better manager then?

 

[AshRK]

In that case why sack Mourinho. He took us from 6th to second and an FA cup Final. So was he a better manager then?

But Jose was not sacked in June that year right. He was sacked when he left us in 6th with lowest morale. If we have a poor start to the next season and are 6th in December then maybe Ole will also be sacked.

Also, more than results it was his demeanor that cost Jose the job. Had Jose not acted in a stupid way and whined and moaned less the he might still have remained here managing us. Jose lost the dressing room, Ole so far has not.

 

[Mainoldo]

Well, for starters, the comparisons between Klopp and Ole need to stop. Klopp has spent a lot longer in charge of Liverpool than Ole has with United, so he has a distinct advantage in that regard. It's not a fair comparison.

The Liverpool players "cheating" is not so far removed from reality as one might think. PED usage is widespread across the world, schools, colleges, gyms, everywhere. I used (note used) them myself for several years.

I don’t think time is the only thing that is stopping this comparisons. I mean you said it in your previous post. So make your mind up. Is it because Klopp is a superior manager or is it because he’s had more time? Or is it both that means we can’t compare him and Ole.

If it’s time then I should rightly be able to compare his progressions to Klopp’s next season.

Well maybe we should use PED then. Pogba can run round the pitch finally.

 

[Random Task]

No, but I expect Manchester United, with the resources available to them, to be able to find a better manager for the club than this.

All of Woodward's appointments are below standard. The guy has wrecked Manchester United. Wrecked it as a football club.

But that's the problem, finding that "better manager" has proven to be a near-impossible task. Moyes, LVG, Jose, they all failed dramatically, and that was after being heavily backed in the transfer market. Ole, in my honest opinion, has made more progress in his 16 months in charge than any of his predecessors post-SAF combined.

One question: can you think manager who is both available and willing to join the club, who could elevate us to league champions status?

 

[Mainoldo]

But Jose was not sacked in June that year right. He was sacked when he left us in 6th with lowest morale. If we have a poor start to the next season and are 6th in December then maybe Ole will also be sacked.

Also, more than results it was his demeanor that cost Jose the job. Had Jose not acted in a stupid way and whined and moaned less the he might still have remained here managing us. Jose lost yje dressing room, Ole so far has not.

So we should just base everything on a feel good factor. If I had no pressure to win a title and got paid handsomely for it too. I’d be really happy too if there was no pressure to do better.

There has to be a burning desire to do better in this club and our standards for our manager at the minute is the biggest problem (my opinion). We are happy to wait the 3-5 years whilst not realising we are just standing still.

 

[AshRK]

So we should just base everything on a feel good factor. If I had no pressure to win a title and got paid handsomely for it too. I’d be really happy too if there was no pressure to do better.

There has to be a burning desire to do better in this club and our standards for our manager at the minute is the biggest problem (my opinion). We are happy to wait the 3-5 years whilst not realising we are just standing still.

Who said we are happy to wait for another 3-5 years. Show me one post where any fan has said we would be happy with Ole for next 3 years even if that mean fighting for top 4. This is the issue with you, for the past 1 week or so you have made up things which no one has said. No one is blidnly defending Ole, in fact all have raised their doubts but you on the other hand have just resorted to some bs facts to counter your point.

Truth is we were 6th last season and if we finish 4th or 3rd then that would mean he has done a good job, note good job not remarkable. What did you expect from this team this season? Did you seriously expect us to challenge for the title? And if you didn't then why are you moaning so much?

 

[Manutd GOGOGO]

Can we all honestly ask ourselves this question?

From a 6th position previous season,
would we have grab "3rd" or a "champion league spot" at the start of the season?

If Yes, then Mr. Ole has done a great job.
If Not, then Mr. Ole has done a poor job.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

But that's the problem, finding that "better manager" has proven to be a near-impossible task. Moyes, LVG, Jose, they all failed dramatically, and that was after being heavily backed in the transfer market. Ole, in my honest opinion, has made more progress in his 16 months in charge than any of his predecessors post-SAF combined.

One question: can you think manager who is both available and willing to join the club, who could elevate us to league champions status?

I, nor you, have no idea who's 'available and willing to join the club who could elevate us to league champions status'.

We're fans, it's not our job - and it's also the go to argument of Ole In posters as it derails the debate into subjective back and forth opinions on Pochettino etc.

Managers are made available by approach - and Utd could approach almost any manager in World Football and tempt them barring about 8 managers.

Woodward has had 7 years to do this - the notion that what he's come up with thus far is the best on offer to Man Utd, ultimately culminating in Solskjaer is literally laughable, and you know it.

Everyone knows it.

 

[Random Task]

I, nor you, have no idea who's 'available and willing to join the club who could elevate us to league champions status'.

We're fans, it's not our job - and it's also the go to argument of Ole In posters as it derails the debate into subjective back and forth opinions on Pochettino etc.

Managers are made available by approach - and Utd could approach almost any manager in World Football and tempt them barring about 8 managers.

Woodward has had 7 years to do this - the notion that what he's come up with thus far is the best on offer to Man Utd, ultimately culminating in Solskjaer is literally laughable, and you know it.

Everyone knows it.

Let's say, for argument's sake, we beat Leicester on Sunday and finish third. Would you have accepted that before the season kicked off, both as an acceptable season for our a new manager and a sign of progress?

 

[Robbie Boy]

I still have massive concerns about him as a manager and I'm still fairly unconvinced by him, in all honesty. However, there's no denying that he's put together a fairly good 2020 with some blips here and there, as expected.

I believe we will do what we need to do against Leicester and get top four which to me, is a good season considering how poor we looked the first half of the season. There are plenty of better managers out there but I believe there are only a few we should be targeting and I don't think that any of those are ready to leave their clubs.

Even if we miss out on top four, I think he should be kept on unless a really talented manager becomes available. The idea of starting the whole process again at this point seems crazy. I used to want him out when we looked a horror show but he done well to pull us back. I'll back him even without top four but I'm rather impartial at this rate. Not getting top four will make him a dead man walking going into next season as he likely won't be able to sign the calibre of player that we desperately require. I also imagine the league will be a tougher place next season with more points required for top four.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

So we should just base everything on a feel good factor. If I had no pressure to win a title and got paid handsomely for it too. I’d be really happy too if there was no pressure to do better.

There has to be a burning desire to do better in this club and our standards for our manager at the minute is the biggest problem (my opinion). We are happy to wait the 3-5 years whilst not realising we are just standing still.

You're quite good at spin, aren't you. Or, you like to spin, at least.

No, of course we shouldn't base everything on feel good factor. But we should of course base some on feel factors, because said feelings stem from progress (or lack of progress), results, etc.

Plenty of feel bad factors = sack the manager
If the players feel bad, the board feel bad, the fans feel bad, Woodward feel bad, the Glazers feel bad, sponsors feel bad, the results are imploding, and the manager have regular bizarre meltdowns throwing everyone but himself under the bus, then you have to sack the manager. You don't have a choice, really.

Plenty of feel good factors = keep the manager
If the players feel good, the board feel good, the fans feel good, Woodward feel good, the Glazers feel good, sponsors feel good, the results are improving, the manager behave himself in a decent manner, then you should keep him around. You can sack him as well, of course, if a better manager suddenly becomes available, or factors other than feel factors says you should, but feel good factors certainly helps a manager keep his job.

And to question Ole's desire is weird. As weird as it is questioning Mourinhos desire. Or Van Gaals desire. Or even Moyes' desire. They all have/had plenty of desire. Probably the same, if not more, desire as the fans.
The same goes with pressure. There's immense pressure on Ole, just as the pressure was immense on Van Gaal. Or Mourinho. Or Moyes.

And nobody's happy with waiting 3-5 years and standing still. Nobody. I haven't seen or heard a single person, whether he's Ole In, Ole Out, or somewhere in between, say this. Ever.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Let's say, for argument's sake, we beat Leicester on Sunday and finish third. Would you have accepted that before the season kicked off, both as an acceptable season for our a new manager and a sign of progress?

Ok, if I ran Man Utd, Solskjaer wouldn't have been given a permanent contract.

If I was suddenly put in charge of Utd now (with Solskjaer already employed), I would look to replace him. I think scraping Top 4 in a season as utterly pathetic as this one isn't enough for the resources available and riches spent by him at this point.

However, as a fan, I think he's a lovely guy and I also accept that getting Top 4 is the absolute extent of the Glazers / Woodward's ambition, so I certainly won't be calling for his sacking if he gets Top 4.

 

[tomaldinho1]

But that's the problem, finding that "better manager" has proven to be a near-impossible task. Moyes, LVG, Jose, they all failed dramatically, and that was after being heavily backed in the transfer market. Ole, in my honest opinion, has made more progress in his 16 months in charge than any of his predecessors post-SAF combined.

One question: can you think manager who is both available and willing to join the club, who could elevate us to league champions status?

Is it progress or is it familiarity? We essentially sacked Moyes, LVG and Jose (three wildly different coaches) and have reverted to what we know/used to work. There are positives & negatives with this season but I don't get the feeling we are that much closer to Liverpool than at the start of the season, despite having a team absolutely laden with talent. I have no issue with Ole's always positive approach and his trust in youth players but I do think we are tactically very basic & looking at our team and the money spent on it, have been under performing for a number of seasons. I think more than a new manager we need someone like Quieroz back as assistant manager because when I watch us at the moment I just see a load of phenomenal individual players huffing and puffing without much structure, we manage to win games these days based on simply having much better players then most PL teams and waiting for individual moments of magic. There was a big press effort recently to give the sense of this being a team and there's no doubt players are happier now but we need some proof of progress: we're still nowhere near major honours, we're still in a position where we might need to prioritise Europa, we effectively threw the FA cup and we've scored less/conceded more than Mou's last full season & are pretty much exactly the same GF/GA as LVG's first season but with less points.

On your question, I know a free agent that pretty much guarantees a Top 4 finish, plays exciting football and took a pretty average Spurs team to the CL final a season ago...

 

[Mainoldo]

Can we all honestly ask ourselves this question?

From a 6th position previous season,
would we have grab "3rd" or a "champion league spot" at the start of the season?

If Yes, then Mr. Ole has done a great job.
If Not, then Mr. Ole has done a poor job.

Football is not that simple. If you have a 20 goal a season striker but he doesn’t fit your style of play you have a right to let him go.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I never said having a proven manager is not the way. I think it was a culmination of situations that led us to hiring Ole. Firstly, I think for a change we wanted to try doing things differently having a long term vision in mind where we don’t let managers come in who stamp their own footprint and then leave us having to do a major reboot. We wanted a manager who could bring us back to our own identity. Secondly, I don’t think many other good managers were available when we hired Ole. There was Allegri available but the rumours were that he either didn’t want to come to us during such a period of transition and also that maybe he didn’t suit our club that well. There was Conte but he was destined for Inter and Poch was an option but the way he was doing this season, we didn’t seem sure enough to take a chance with him.

You also have to understand that hiring Ole is not the end of the world. We can always hire another good/better manager but once we’re completely sure Ole isn’t the man to take us forward and when there’s actually a manager available who would compliment us well or at least better than we’re doing right now. I don’t think any other manager could’ve come in and suddenly made Lingard & company worldies. Mourinho tried and it didn’t happen. Can you recommend any other good managers that are available at the moment?


To your first remark: I think it’s a little unfair to say that injuries are not to blame. I’d concede injuries are not to blame if our squad depth is like City’s where they’re well stacked in terms of replacing a quality player with another player of almost-or-equal quality.
When we lost our BEST players to injury while having incompetent players to replace them with, you have to admit even you as a manager, would have no other option but to accept whatever results come your way.
I think Ole did deserve some sort of a ‘free ride’ this season because he also helped us as a club figure out how good our squad actually is. He gave the entire squad a chance to play this season and prove themselves. Now we know exactly who is good enough to wear our jersey.
But next season I am right with you when I say I’ll be scrutinizing Ole much more harshly because now we have almost assembled a squad for him where injuries shouldn’t be any sort of excuse to cut him some slack.



I have evaluated Ole for the entire season. And in my opinion, he does not justify being fired at all. He actually did really well with the players he had available during the first part too. Fred & McT were given a chance by him and they had much better seasons than previously. Pereira, Lingard, Mata, James were useless and they cost us most of the points. Pogba, Martial & Rashford were unavailable at different points and we had no players of similar quality to replace them with.
And sure we got lucky other teams had a dip in form including Leicester’s late dip but luck is just luck. Last year other teams got lucky when DDG cost us top 4. Leicester got lucky when they won the PL cuz spurs fecked up. Liverpool were unlucky when Gerrard slipped.
I understand that we shouldn’t rely on luck but that’s the charm of the PL. There’s so much talent that as long as we do our best, we could always make a comeback. We could’ve given up the way our season started but after the liverpool draw, we locked down, played to our strengths, hid our weaknesses as well as we could, until we were able to bring in reinforcements and make a comeback. If Ole was actually that incompetent than for me at least, he wouldn’t have gotten the results he got against the top 6 sides and neither would he have suddenly started to do better when he got Bruno & Ighalo. It was clearly evident then that the strategies he had were fine, it was just the quality that was missing. As soon as Bruno got introduced, it was like check mate. Everything started to make sense, goals were being created and finished. I mean we have to cut Ole some slack for having to survive without even half decent players, let alone Lingard & company who are West Ham level, let alone top 10 team level.


This is the best part of your post. I say that because I get to honestly point out that I’m not one of those blind Ole fans. I myself would like to see how he does and then judge him once he cannot be afforded any excuses which for me, is by the end of next season. If he can sustain the team performing then sure, otherwise yes, he’s not the man to take us forward. He was good for this rebuilding phase and that’s about it. Because now we won’t be recycling the squad like we did under LvG and Mou. The next manager will surely bring in a handful of players but the core will remain the same for the next decade almost.

I think when a new manager comes in there’s surely a phase where players have to change their playing styles from a previous managers teachings to a new one. Ole himself mentioned how our work ethic and fitness levels were well below par under Mourinho. Then comes the defensive approach that our players had been used to and now they had to become more progressive and more attacking. It takes time to suddenly start making perfect passes suited to a totally different style. In Pep’s first year, city players made countless errors. Likewise in Klopp’s first few seasons. It was evident that A) players needed to adapt to a different style, and B) which players were needed to replace since they couldn’t adapt to the new system.
Same thing happened with us. When Ole took over from Mou, he gave everyone a chance and it became evident that players like Lukaku, Smalling & Sanchez, no matter how good they were, did not suit our system or possess the quality to survive.


Referring to the bolded parts:

A) This all refers back to whatever I have mentioned above in this post. It is the managers job to make do with what he has but let’s be honest. Our bench is full on incompetent players way past their prime. Even Mourinho who got us 2nd place said he couldn’t have done any better than that with this squad and I fully believed him. There’s only so much you can do. If the term ‘quality’ wasn’t relative than we’d see managers like Pep winning trophies with championship players too. Which doesn’t happen does it. A managers philosophies are only as worthwhile as the players capable of applying the teachings. Why did Pep & Klopp get so much free time to build their own squad before they were answerable for their objectives? Why did we even bother hiring Ole when we knew were in transition and he obviously doesn’t have that prominent of a resume? It’s because we knew this rebuild will take time and we don’t a manager who will feck off in 2/3 years time if it doesn’t work out. We wanted someone who will think long term for a change. And one that will bring us back to our identity. A club like ours will never remain successful by always hiring the best managers and then getting rid of them to start a new cycle. We have been successful because our plan was always wholesome and long term enough to guarantee decades of success, not a mere handful of years.

B) As for the Liverpool players that you mentioned, they were good that’s why they stuck around. It’s the players you didn’t mention that weren’t good enough and needed replacing. That has been my whole point. Similarly, in our team, sure Pogba, Rashford, Martial had potential and we weren’t worried about them. But we were worried about players like Lingard, Pereira, Mata etc who we knew will cost us points, results, performances etc. And that is literally what happened. You think if we had better players and Ole still couldn’t get results, I would continue supporting him? Hell nah.

I agree in most of the points with you, I think the main difference between you and me is while we both agree he has been a good "transitional" manager I think its time to move on looking for the right manager to take us to the next level while you think he may do it and are willing to give him one more season.

I think if we give him one more season we will just waste time, if we get Sancho logic says we will get better and should get more points next season but I dont think any sustancial improvement will be made, we'll be as good as our squad. That meaning our manager doesnt add anything special to it.

 

[Mainoldo]

Who said we are happy to wait for another 3-5 years. Show me one post where any fan has said we would be happy with Ole for next 3 years even if that mean fighting for top 4. This is the issue with you, for the past 1 week or so you have made up things which no one has said. No one is blidnly defending Ole, in fact all have raised their doubts but you on the other hand have just resorted to some bs facts to counter your point.

Truth is we were 6th last season and if we finish 4th or 3rd then that would mean he has done a good job, note good job not remarkable. What did you expect from this team this season? Did you seriously expect us to challenge for the title? And if you didn't then why are you moaning so much?

I’m moaning because once again we are happy to stay still. Last time we stayed still we ended up with Mourinho’s third season. It might not feel the same but we will be heading in the same direction if we are not planning for a new manager.

Granted I over exaggerate a lot in my post. But you knew exactly what I meant whether I was referring to 3-5 years or 1 year like I’ve said before. He’s job is done. There is nothing an extra year or and extra ‘3-5 years’ is going to show us that this guy can improve the team performance which is required to get us challenging for a league.

Yes he might be getting the squad ready and in that case give him the DoF’s job. He is not however improving the team’s performance.

 

[Mainoldo]

You're quite good at spin, aren't you. Or, you like to spin, at least.

No, of course we shouldn't base everything on feel good factor. But we should of course base some on feel factors, because said feelings stem from progress (or lack of progress), results, etc.

Plenty of feel bad factors = sack the manager
If the players feel bad, the board feel bad, the fans feel bad, Woodward feel bad, the Glazers feel bad, sponsors feel bad, the results are imploding, and the manager have regular bizarre meltdowns throwing everyone but himself under the bus, then you have to sack the manager. You don't have a choice, really.

Plenty of feel good factors = keep the manager
If the players feel good, the board feel good, the fans feel good, Woodward feel good, the Glazers feel good, sponsors feel good, the results are improving, the manager behave himself in a decent manner, then you should keep him around. You can sack him as well, of course, if a better manager suddenly becomes available, or factors other than feel factors says you should, but feel good factors certainly helps a manager keep his job.

And to question Ole's desire is weird. As weird as it is questioning Mourinhos desire. Or Van Gaals desire. Or even Moyes' desire. They all have/had plenty of desire. Probably the same, if not more, desire as the fans.
The same goes with pressure. There's immense pressure on Ole, just as the pressure was immense on Van Gaal. Or Mourinho. Or Moyes.

And nobody's happy with waiting 3-5 years and standing still. Nobody. I haven't seen or heard a single person, whether he's Ole In, Ole Out, or somewhere in between, say this. Ever.

They are happy because deep down there is a hope that in Ole we can develop some type of mini SAF dynasty. I hear the we don’t know if Ole can take us to a title but he’s going about it in the right way. The simple answer we do know he can’t take us to a title but we should be ensuring we get the most out if him whilst we can as we look for the guy to progress us further. Who might I add still not be able to get us a title.

 

[GailSpaceWynand]

I’m moaning because once again we are happy to stay still. Last time we stayed still we ended up with Mourinho’s third season. It might not feel the same but we will be heading in the same direction if we are not planning for a new manager.

Granted I over exaggerate a lot in my post. But you knew exactly what I meant whether I was referring to 3-5 years or 1 year like I’ve said before. He’s job is done. There is nothing an extra year or and extra ‘3-5 years’ is going to show us that this guy can improve the team performance which is required to get us challenging for a league.

Yes he might be getting the squad ready and in that case give him the DoF’s job. He is not however improving the team’s performance.

Why is his job done despite the evident progress in style of play and individual player's performances (and dare I say league standing before I'm bombarded with "points argument " despite comparing different seasons)

How is he not improving the teams performances?? Happy to stay still? What are you even talking about? The only way to move forward is to change managers then and apparently this is what "planning" looks like to a few here; not supporting the manager who has changed the outlook, individual players in his first season and got it right with transfers and actually give him a chance to build his squad and then judge him?

 

[GailSpaceWynand]

I am sorry I don't understand the fans who say Ole is a very good transition manager. What does that mean? So he has performed well, given everyone an uplift, made individual players better, made astute transfers and brought us to a respectable points tally considering the injuries and squad depth (or lack of) but he is not the one to get titles for us?? Without giving him a fair shot at it by having a full fit squad and better squad players? Hasn't the evidence pointed to doing exactly that and trusting Ole with another season at the least?

Also seeing a lot of deluded idiots trying to now say the signings were suspect after giving him credit for that all season. Apart from Bruno all are shit apparently. Just because Maguire who has literally not missed a minute has had a few mistakes along the way. Wan bissaka (clearly one of the best signings we have made recently) is suspect because of 2 off games. And James who was leading our assists tally until very recently(and just a 15m signing at that).

So reactionary it does my head in.

 

[Mainoldo]

Why is his job done despite the evident progress in style of play and individual player's performances (and dare I say league standing before I'm bombarded with "points argument " despite comparing different seasons)

How is he not improving the teams performances?? Happy to stay still? What are you even talking about? The only way to move forward is to change managers then and apparently this is what "planning" looks like to a few here; not supporting the manager who has changed the outlook, individual players in his first season and got it right with transfers and actually give him a chance to build his squad and then judge him?

On the road to their league dominance Juventus changed managers 7 times from being promoted from Serie B. The list included fellow club legends and on average they all lasted around 2 years until Conte took over and won the title in his first season. The probably with our football club is we live in the past. We won’t hire a DoF and we think the only way to become great is to hire an anomaly like Sir Matt and SAF.

Okay we can kind of accept (some of us) Ole is the guy before the next guy. But to not want the next guys because he isn’t what you consider Pep or Klopp. I.e Modern day SAF is lunacy. I’d rather you just admit your not sure what quality of managers are currently out there. Nothing wrong with that most of us just watch United and probably couldn’t tell you how good Jadon Sancho is and what he looks like.

 

[romufc]

Well, for starters, the comparisons between Klopp and Ole need to stop. Klopp has spent a lot longer in charge of Liverpool than Ole has with United, so he has a distinct advantage in that regard. It's not a fair comparison.

The Liverpool players "cheating" is not so far removed from reality as one might think. PED usage is widespread across the world, schools, colleges, gyms, everywhere. I used (note used) them myself for several years.

For those comparing Klopp and Ole.

Klopp had a difficult start at Liverpool for an experienced manager. I recall the season before last alot of Liverpool fans were complaining about Klopp's game management and his subs, he is too negative. It takes time to build a winning mentality, it isnt a flick of the switch.

People need to calm down on this slightly.

 

[RedSky]

Given some of you are comparing Managers, feel free to use the below.

After 58 League Games:

​

Manager​	Club​	GF​	GA​	GD​	Total Points​
Pep​	City​	122​	59​	63​	113​
Jose​	United​	97​	45​	52​	112​
Klopp​	Liverpool​	115​	75​	40​	103​
Ole​	United​	100​	61​	39​	103​
LVG​	United​	86​	54​	32​	103​
Poch​	Tottenham​	92​	69​	23​	100​

 

[Random Task]

Given some of you are comparing Managers, feel free to use the below.

After 58 League Games:

​

Manager	GF	GA	GD	Total Points
Pep	122	59	63	113
Jose	97	45	52	112
Klopp	115	75	40	103
Ole	100	61	39	103
LVG	86	54	32	103
Poch	92	69	23	100

Interesting.

Let's see what people make of this