They've all improved the first team and improved as players since signing. They've also come from lesser clubs and stepped up well. You can't wish something to go away because it doesn't fit your narrative despite it being true.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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Largely agree, but I will add that I still have doubts about just how good Ole is as a coach. He's definitely decent and I think he deserves much credit for improving the individual performances of several players. So far I don't see it in him to coach our team into something greater than the sum of its parts though. I think we rely quite a bit on giving freedom to our talented attacking players, which is enough to win many games, but will struggle when we play against better organised/structured teams who also have comparably talented players. That's not to say we can't win against such teams - we have done so multiple times this sesson - but it would be tougher and we end up relying more on form and/or luck.
I felt today's game was more on fatigue than any thing else. But he should know those players were tired. So it's on him. He ended up playing our best 11 early in the second half and even tired them out more. It's a painful defeat because our best players were all on the pitch and we lost because they were all tired. Ole knew this and yet insisted on playing them. Reminds me of when he was playing Rashford and Pogba through injury
19 games unbeaten and then 1 loss and the sack brigade come out of the woodwork. Pathetic really. Number of games in a short period so it’s tough going. Disappointing loss today but important games coming up.
20 games is not a purple patch.
I disagree. He will get few 4th spots trophies. That feeling when your team finishes 4th...there is no cup which can beat that.
Then don't talk with me about the football, oh wise one.
If you cannot see that we are in course for our lowest bottom 3 (pointwise) finish in the history of EPL, then there's no point in talking to you about football. Or maybe, in your mind only the good performances and result count, while the matches where we cannot string 2 passes together (more than half in this season) just don't matter.
Just quoting this post for the truth it contains.
You know the bit that was written above where I quoted you? That wasn't aimed at you.
As for the fact that I dismissed your post out of hand, consider how condescending and dismissive you were of anyone supporting him 7-8 months ago and maybe you'll understand.
But youre focusing on the first half of the season as if it ended there. Its the same thing youre accusing others of doing. Its just a lot more brazen because youre caling them out on it.
This is our first defeat since January but these 20 odd games since are a purple patch while the 20 odd games before that... Somehow aren't? That was the real test... Somehow?
I cant see how its logical to follow that and not map the actual progression throughout a season.
I see where we were before Solskjaer. We were second with highest point total post SAF. We won 3 trophies in 2 years. But that was unacceptable to our fans. And no, seasons don't finish in December, Mourinho could've improved on that just like Ole did this season. Ole was worse than Jose this year at the same point of the season when Jose was sacked last year.
Ole LITERALLY took the club backwards, no ifs and buts about it. Idc about 'feeling' and 'energy' and 'excitement' and other crap. By every logical and objective measure we're worse than we ever were post SAF.
And yes, I do judge on titles, the only thing that matters for a club the size of United. Or at the very least consistently challenging for titles.
I agree it's about the club as a whole. That's why Ole as the biggest symptom of the Glazers has to go. He consistently lies to fans, lowers standards and accepts selling players without replacements, lowering the wage bill etc. The fact he's a horrific manager tactics-wise is only a small part why he absolutely has to leave ASAP.
I don't need to respond to the rest. I didn't say any of those things, but it's nice to see #OleIn fanboys still have nothing more than 'it took this other coach this many years so we have to give this failed Cardiff manager more time to drag the club down'.
We cannot keep on discussing about changing manager. This whole knee jerking has to stop. Before the game no one cared about FA cup and now suddenly he is getting scrutinized for this game. If we finish outside top 4 then yes your points would have some merit. Till then you are just making a fool out of yourself.
We only have a hope of the top 4 because Leicester have won six of their last twenty games. Ten matchweeks ago, we trailed them by twelve points. They've handed it to us on a silver platter and we still need to gain on them while playing them away on the last day where they've had a week to rest. If we do get 4th, which is by no means guaranteed, it'll be because we were slightly less shit than the other clubs that would have been in contention. Any other year and 4th would have been out of our mathematic reach by now. In other words, our possibly getting 4th does not mean we've done well this season.
And I love Ole as the player he was for us. That doesn't blind me from judging him as our manager though, and the jury is still out on that. I urge my fellow United fans to remain open minded in that same way.
The main thing he's being criticised for - playing basically the same team since lockdown ended - is the same thing that has given us the platform to be in a really good position to get CL football and with it. I agree it'd be preferable to have found a way to work some of those players into the side to get minutes and give others a rest, but even if it turns out that we fall over the line, that'll be considered a decent season in terms of final position, especially considering we were absolutely dogshit for large parts of the first half of it.
Been poor since the restart? He has barely played since the restart.
Well, it was 19 I believe, with many draws in between, and some very ugly performances too.
We went with Mourinho 25 matches without a defeat, and it turned out to be all for nothing.
As I've been saying for some time, see how things stand at the end of the season. There is no point in pretending that the season started at the end of January or whenever this run started.
Btw, we went 12 without defeat with Ole last season too (9 victories there). And it was, well, a purple patch. We ended the season winning 2 points out of possible 15.
Next season is going to be harder with Spurs and Arsenal improving. We need to perform very well to challenge for the title with many hard games around.
Hopefully Liverpool will decline and City will still struggle.
Hopefully Liverpool will decline and City will still struggle.
Unfair to completely discount that we've only dropped 4 points (at the last minute too against soton) since the restart.
Especially now that we have (more or less) our full team available for selection, unlike for most of the year.
Surely this has got be a joke. This post is about as embarrassing as it gets.
Good god.
That phase literally proved that we needed a player who can create chances against teams that sat back. A tactically manager can't beat Poch, Sarri, Lampard, Pep, Mou, Tuchel and draw with Klopp when 3 of his players got injured during the 1st half of a game!
I don't believe I am doing that. I am saying that progress can be measured at the end of the season and compared with the other seasons (of course, spending 210m pounds helps too).
People who are pretending that August-January does not matter are deluding themselves. I am not pretending that January-now does not matter, cause if that was the case, then now we would be around the tenth position and the discussion that Ole needs to go would have ended some time ago when he would have been sacked. This run bought some time to Ole to redeem himself, it didn't suddenly nullify the feckups of the previous 6 months.
The points tally comparison is irrelevant. it’s about where you finish. Each season is different, one season a team can win the league with lower points but it just means the season is different with teams taking points off each other. We had a poor first half but at the end of the day, it’s about where you finish.
Online fanbases in football are generally reactionary when something goes awry and United's is no exception. We've just lost a 19 game unbeaten streak. Clearly the manager has been doing something right up to this point.
Olé deserves some genuine criticism though. The way he's managed his squad post lockdown requires questioning. Fred was probably our best performing player until the enforced break, but since the seasons resumption he has only started two games. Dumping him into a cup semi final and expecting him to perform is just poor management imo.
Olé deserves some genuine criticism though. The way he's managed his squad post lockdown requires questioning. Fred was probably our best performing player until the enforced break, but since the seasons resumption he has only started two games. Dumping him into a cup semi final and expecting him to perform is just poor management imo.
Our squad isn't deep enough to manage these many games in such a short time frame. Every single match post-lockdown has been a must-win for us so I can't really blame Ole for the management. 3-4 changes to the team and you can see the immediate drop off in performances.
He needs to find solutions to the problems we face when being high-pressed. It's 2 games, Saints and now Chelsea where we've looked devoid of ideas on how to get out of it. Also, the idea of us pushing for PL next season is silly. This squad needs a lot more work before we get there. Addition of a new CB, RW is a must. Followed by a DM, and perhaps a new CF in January.
He needs to find solutions to the problems we face when being high-pressed. It's 2 games, Saints and now Chelsea where we've looked devoid of ideas on how to get out of it. Also, the idea of us pushing for PL next season is silly. This squad needs a lot more work before we get there. Addition of a new CB, RW is a must. Followed by a DM, and perhaps a new CF in January.
Goto bed.
Sack Ole. Bring back Moyes. This is utter madness. He was on a hiding today no matter what. Play his strongest team and lose today and against Moyes then he will be crucified.
In my opinion he played too many first eleven players. He should have played the reserves.
Now he needs to beat Moyes thoroughly.
In my opinion he played too many first eleven players. He should have played the reserves.
Now he needs to beat Moyes thoroughly.
Why do we want a Maguire 2.0 in Skrinar? If you're in charge of recuitment you are immediately fired.
I'm curious why you in this assesment ignore the 2020 stretch following the introduction of Bruno, and recently Paul Pogba and Marcus Rashford back into the squad, like it has no bearing on Ole's managerial abilities, while demanding the same results from a squad frequently involving Jesse Lingard, Andreas Pereira, Daniel James, to a lesser degree Scott McTominay who's had a good season, etc.
The team after restart is very different to the one before restart.
I'll give you some context, as I strongly argue that the team that started this season is different to the one we are finishing with. In 2 parts: introduction or re-introduction of long term players and a new pivotal player. And key player development (Greenwood, Williams, AWB, Martial, Rashford).
Here is the Premier League table from Gameweek 20 to 37 (we are yet to play gw37) - https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/formtabelle/wettbewerb/GB1?saison_id=2019&min=20&max=37 - Notice the goal difference between the 3 top teams compared to anyone else. - Our defense has been VERY solid for a long time now. And the team is scoring for fun, only outscored by Manchester City.
Here is the Premier League table following the restart: - https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/formtabelle/wettbewerb/GB1?saison_id=2019&min=30&max=37 - Equal ponts with Tottenham with 1 game in hand. Vastly better goaldifference.
The argument from the Ole out supporters boils down to this: Will introducing stronger players to this existing pool of available players make us worse than the Gw20->37 table? What exactly is the likelihood of that?
Martial is having his best senior season ever thanks to Ole's new role granted to him. That is on Ole
Rashford is having his best senior season ever.
AWB is having his best senior season ever.
Marcus Greenwood is having a massive breakout season. Greenwood's development is managed by Ole.
Scott McTominay is having his best senior season ever. Signing a long term contract and having played as a regular starter in the absence of Pogba.
Brandon Williams is having a massive breakout season.
Odion Ighalo was brough in as a crisis backup striker - fairytale story of the season.
Fred has had a breakout season in a Manchester United shirt.
Nemanja Matic has turned a corner and become one of our best players. Absolutely essential to our midfield
Bruno Fernandes was brough in and become one of our most influential signings to date.
Daniel James started very solidly, has ran out of form but has still racked up a team leading 7 assists on the season. Daniel James is a developing talent.
Harry Maguire is the team captain.
Luke Shaw has again had a phenomenal season. He is about to hit his prime, still only 25.
Developing players have this habit of doing just that. Martial, Rashford, Greenwood are all players that have a severely strong likelihood of improving ahead of next season. Martial and Rashford are still considered developing talent.
So you know ALL of this, and you are still going to sit there and tell me that including Jadon Sancho and 1-2 more signings into this squad and Ole can't take them to a title challenge?
If you're going to judge a manager for playing with an inferior squad, at least do him the justice of juidging him when playing a full strength squad.
We have a serious issue with squad depth that needs to be adressed, but that takes many transfer windows. There is great care taken when introducing new players into the group, personalities need to allign. Notice how ALL of our signings are thriving in their environemnt? That is not down to dumb luck.
People know ALL of this. And they still want to fire the man for losing a game that was meaningless in the grand scheme of this season. Champions League and Europa League is our priority. FA cup was a nice chance but quickly dismissed. Are we not happy with triumphing over this team 3 times on the season?
There is a enormous development curve going on in this squad that I don't quite understand how so many are deliberately ignoring.
I'll just quote the man himself:
“Of course, we've hit a few bumps in the road, I never said this was going to be a quick-fix job. “Rome wasn't built in a day. We need time, and the attitude of the boys has been great. It's step after step after step." "
Patience and trust in the process is a rare luxury, but one that is even more scarce in a forum full of fans who post when their feelings are running high and all sense and good graces have left the building entirely.
He should get the summer and next season at the very least. There’s enough rejuvenation about the place to warrant time to build.
Good post.
Great post.
It is irrelevant only with regard to playing UCL football or not. It is a very good way of measuring progress on the other hand. Liverpool finished second last year, but it was clear that they are challenging and will go for titles, considering their number of points. When we finished second with Mourinho, it was clear that we are nowhere ready to challenge.
The entire chance why we still might end in UCL is cause the other clubs fecked it up. It is a weak league, after all, Liverpool took the piss out of it, and newbie Lampard with a worse team is in a better position. Our main challenger for the fourth spot is a team that finished below us last season, hardly signed new players and we signed from them their second-best player.
Sure, in the end the thing that matters is UCL football, and I would be happy if we get it. But I totally fail to see this progress if we consider the entire season. Of course, if you specify which matches matter and which don't then yes. But you can do that with any manager we ever had.
Holy feck. This is one crazy post!
Sure, no worries.
Well, I've never been a huge fan of Ole's footy, but I'm certainly of the opinion that he's done better than I thought initially possible for him.
That said, I'm not a poster that rams my opinion down others' throats - or at least I try not to be a dogmatic person in general.
For me, as I said in the previous post, if he gets Top 4, keep him. Is that the standard Utd should be aiming for...? I'm not sure, but I like him and would keep him if he does that.
If he fails to, after the decisions he made today regarding team selection and in game management (was there ANY point in Bruno playing a single minute of that match... let alone 90?), then I'd look to pull the trigger and replace him.
But each to their own, and I'm by no means an expert on footy matters!
A whole lot of exaggeration in there. If things are going so well, and everyone is doing so well, why aren't we better than we actually are?
That was a long read but bang on. Looking forward to a few replies
We have had clear progress since the beginning of the season once we have had a fully fit squad. This has been said by numerous pundits. We have been scoring goals freely and have been better in an attacking sense. We need some squad depth and a couple of first team players but I believe we are improving.
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