Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[SteveW]

Ole's United at the moment are just frustrating, in different games I can see the arguments for Ole in and Ole out. But post Fernandes the team certainly seem to have woken up a bit.

Watching you during January was at times horrendous, the Burnley game for example was just painful and fitted the no plan no tactics argument and I completely get the worry about his win rate.

But in your 6 games since then (and yes I know this includes Tranmere, but it also includes City and Chelsea) you've scored 13 and only conceded 1 which was that ridiculous route one goal from Brugge. Some will argue VAR has been a bit of a saviour, but though I think it was completely wrong with the Maguire red card decision, the goals it ruled out against Chelsea and Watford were ,in my mind, all correct decisions.

The defence looks better, Martial has scored 5 in 6, Bruno has been a catalyst for many players around him, I am amazed by how quickly he's not only just settled in but affected the whole team.

Bruno's position is vital in a Solskjaer team. The difference in creativity is already very apparent. It also illustrates just how bad the likes of Pereira, Lingard and Mata have been. Passengers playing important roles.

Each signing Ole makes improves us. He needs to be backed in the summer to continue the build.

 

[bondsname]

Maybe it’s not that bad but it’s also not that good. What you’ve described is a basic attacking principle, forward moves and creates space for other players to exploit in behind. I’ll bang on about Guardiola again but the way his teams play where the ball is constantly moving between the lines, testing and probing one side then another, then another, loading each side with pressure until there’s a lapse in concentration, and a chink appears that lets one of their forwards in. We have nothing like that.

I get there’s more than one way to play football but we are so reliant on counters to get space. Moreover our midfield is so disjointed, the amount of times Fred gets caught in possession in the centre circle because that’s our only way of playing up the field is through him. A better team than Watford would have punished us today. But when we play better teams we give them the ball and sit back and hope for a plucky counter. It’s been really effective but it reminds me of Leicester when they won the league. With the players we have we can and should be doing better. We have no way of exerting dominance in matches. We never look dominant. You can say I’ve got it in for ole if you like but it’s just way I see it.

To you maybe it sounds "basic", but playing simple football is the most difficult thing in the world. Our players tend to over-complicate things, they either take way too many touches and the attacking momentum is lost, or they chose the wrong decision (can't spot a player in a better position, they go for the shot instead of a pass, attempt to dribble when they should pass it etc) so we end up playing ourself into trouble because we take the most difficult route to goal. For example, when we had Rashford fit and firing he made run after run behind the opposition defensive line, excellent runs, and no a single teammate picked him out. Other players also made excellent runs but where ignored by their teammates. I saw visibly frustrated attackers (especially Rashford) almost every game. Imagine if we had taken the simple route instead.

One thing we will never know for sure is if it's due to the coaching or the players, but we quite clearly don't play the way Ole wants. It's funny though because as soon as we get a quality player like Bruno, instantly he performs at a level above the rest. It seem to me that we have shit squad and Ole can't do much about it.

I see you're mentioning Guardiola an an example of how attacking should/could work. Guardiola indeed uses a more complex system with very strict instructions especially in the build-up, but Klopp on the other hand plays extremely "basic" football and it works to perfection. His basic idea is to use fullbacks to cross the ball into the box, and it fecking works. Not to sound like Klopp's biggest fan, but he has managed to get his team to play very simple football effectively, and it's due to having the right personnel and good coaching. Ferguson also mastered the art of simple football, all his successful teams over the years played direct, simple, attacking football. From my observation I see Ole attempting to play simple football but can't manage it due to lack of quality in the squad. It takes time to build a team like that. You don't have to play like Guardiola to be successful.

 

[Class of 63]

I'm gonna stick with my vote of letting Ole finish the season, then replacing him. Hopefully we get top 4 and Poch fancies working with the likes of Bruno, Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, etc.

Good luck changing it, even if you wanted to

 

[The Boy]

Seems like lots of people are changing their opinion from Ole out to finish the season and replace. Makes sense given we're now at the end of February and FA Cup, Europa and top 4 are still real possibilities. Also you've won 4 and drawn 2 in your last 6 games, that suggests you're on a bit of a run.

@Damien is it worth reopening the poll for a couple of weeks to see how opinions have moved ?

 

[Class of 63]

How any true united fan could still be voting to sack him absolutely staggers me
Yes we have had a tough season , yes we have had some poor results.
However ....
When Ole came in we were a club on our knees with morale shot to bits full of deadwood that Jose had failed to get rid of and players that were causing nothing but trouble and disruption , he took the brave decisions to let Sanchez and Lukaku go and though Herrera was missed it’s pretty obvious that Ole knows exactly what he wants and the type of players he wants .

I can’t remember the last time a manager brought players in that have been immediate successes .Look at his signings

AWB . Still room to improve but looking like our best Right back since Gary N
Maguire taken time too settle but growing in stature in every game definitely our best CB since Rio and Vida
Dan James . Bought as one for the future and who has given his all and ran himself into the ground for the club .
Bruno hit the ground running and looking like he could be our best signing for years .
The improvement in Fred should also be noted a disaster under Jose now the first name on the team sheet,
Ole has got us closing in on the top 4 even after the horrendous injuries we have had resulting in having to play the like of Pereira and Lingard on a regular basis .
He has managed the Pogba situation with poise and dignity unlike Jose who just made bad situations even worse .
Finally the job he has done with the kids is just fantastic .
Mctominay has turned into an integral part of the team .
Greenwood has been given a chance to sign and has developed immeasurabley
Williams looks like a future 1st teamer and international fullback .
Still in the UEFA cup
Still in the FA cup
A real chance of top 4 finish
unlucky not to be in lge cup final .
not to give him another season would be an absolute Disgrace
Get real and get behind him .He deserves another season.

Bang on the money, but it will no doubt fall on deaf ears.

 

[RedBanker]

Seems like lots of people are changing their opinion from Ole out to finish the season and replace. Makes sense given we're now at the end of February and FA Cup, Europa and top 4 are still real possibilities. Also you've won 4 and drawn 2 in your last 6 games, that suggests you're on a bit of a run.

@Damien is it worth reopening the poll for a couple of weeks to see how opinions have moved ?

Absolutely not. The poll is done. You yourself made a thread where we all outlined our targets/ circumstancesfor changing our minds either way. I think even the 50 percent who voted for an immediate sack in January are now resigned to the fact that nothing will change until the end of the season. The Board too has hopefully given Solksjaer their own targets. We have to wait and watch and for the betterment of the club pray that we somehow make the CL. Yes we scraped through against Chelsea via massive chunks of luck and blind VAR and also got 3 points against Watford at home (nowadays thats a big achievement). Let's see how many more freakish wins we can gather. We will need as many as we can get.


The real concern is losing out on capable managers due to this baseless sentimentality around Solskjaer. In the summer expect Tuchel and probably some others to be available, in addition to Allegri, Pochettino and probably Guardiola. Burying our head in the sand even then and hoping for miracles will be our undoing I think.

 

[Class of 63]

Absolutely not. The poll is done. You yourself made a thread where we all outlined our targets/ circumstancesfor changing our minds either way. I think even the 50 percent who voted for an immediate sack in January are now resigned to the fact that nothing will change until the end of the season. The Board too has hopefully given Solksjaer their own targets. We have to wait and watch and for the betterment of the club pray that we somehow make the CL. Yes we scraped through against Chelsea via massive chunks of luck and blind VAR and also got 3 points against Watford at home (nowadays thats a big achievement). Let's see how many more freakish wins we can gather. We will need as many as we can get.


The real concern is losing out on capable managers due to this baseless sentimentality around Solskjaer. In the summer expect Tuchel and probably some others to be available, in addition to Allegri, Pochettino and probably Guardiola. Burying our head in the sand even then and hoping for miracles will be our undoing I think.

Yes the SLP and WUM's have had their say/fun, the End, no more.

 

[lysglimt]

Nah, not really. While I agree sacking him now would be pointless.. who could we replace him with (assuming Poch isn't available until the season ends)? Definitely needs replacing in the summer though.

Saw a stat on NBCSN where under the first 34 PL games under Moyes, LVG, Mourinho and Ole, Ole was comfortably worst in terms of wins, points, goal difference. Wish I could find it again.

No one is arguing that he wasn't - but he has been rebuilding the entire club after 3 managers failed signings.

 

[The Boy]

Absolutely not. The poll is done. You yourself made a thread where we all outlined our targets/ circumstancesfor changing our minds either way. I think even the 50 percent who voted for an immediate sack in January are now resigned to the fact that nothing will change until the end of the season. The Board too has hopefully given Solksjaer their own targets. We have to wait and watch and for the betterment of the club pray that we somehow make the CL. Yes we scraped through against Chelsea via massive chunks of luck and blind VAR and also got 3 points against Watford at home (nowadays thats a big achievement). Let's see how many more freakish wins we can gather. We will need as many as we can get.


The real concern is losing out on capable managers due to this baseless sentimentality around Solskjaer. In the summer expect Tuchel and probably some others to be available, in addition to Allegri, Pochettino and probably Guardiola. Burying our head in the sand even then and hoping for miracles will be our undoing I think.

You're fisrt sentences sounds very Brexity, no one can change their mind in changing circumstances!

I didn't think you scraped through against Chelsea, I thought you played well and took your chances well, I know it is subjective, but I thought you were lucky with the VAR decision on Maguire as that should have been a sending off in my opinion, but the goal decisions were fair, but again only my opinion.

As for the Watford game, people have been complaining that you don't break down defensive teams and struggle with the low block, now your team has new additions and under performing players are being dropped, you broke down Watford relatively easily and thrashed them, something you were not doing so well earlier in the season, therefore it is an achievement and possibly a sign of moving in the right direction. So I think it's unfair on the whole team to call them freakish wins.

As for new managers, I think Poch could be interesting with this team, I don't think Tuchel will leave PSG but again could be interesting choice if he did, Allegri not so much and I feel you'd be making the same mistakes again by appointing a manager with a completely different style from the last one. At the moment you have a team built around pace and fast transitions, Allegri plays a much slower build style and a tendency when off the ball to drop back and then press in his own half, more like LvG. As for Guardiola whatever happens he is not going to United I'm afraid, but I reckon you know that anyway!

 

[Man of Leisure]

No one is arguing that he wasn't - but he has been rebuilding the entire club after 3 managers failed signings.

Those 3 managers eventually all got sacked, but have had better records than him. I just don't think giving Ole another transfer window is going to change much. And quite possibly, could set us back further.

 

[RedBanker]

Yes the SLP and WUM's have had their say/fun, the End, no more.

Don't forget the cultists, apologists, relatives and those living in Birdboxville.

 

[Class of 63]

Don't forget the cultists, apologists, relatives and those living in Birdboxville.

Who from now on in will be known as the Nearly 29%ers

 

[RedBanker]

You're fisrt sentences sounds very Brexity, no one can change their mind in changing circumstances!

I didn't think you scraped through against Chelsea, I thought you played well and took your chances well, I know it is subjective, but I thought you were lucky with the VAR decision on Maguire as that should have been a sending off in my opinion, but the goal decisions were fair, but again only my opinion.

As for the Watford game, people have been complaining that you don't break down defensive teams and struggle with the low block, now your team has new additions and under performing players are being dropped, you broke down Watford relatively easily and thrashed them, something you were not doing so well earlier in the season, therefore it is an achievement and possibly a sign of moving in the right direction. So I think it's unfair on the whole team to call them freakish wins.

As for new managers, I think Poch could be interesting with this team, I don't think Tuchel will leave PSG but again could be interesting choice if he did, Allegri not so much and I feel you'd be making the same mistakes again by appointing a manager with a completely different style from the last one. At the moment you have a team built around pace and fast transitions, Allegri plays a much slower build style and a tendency when off the ball to drop back and then press in his own half, more like LvG. As for Guardiola whatever happens he is not going to United I'm afraid, but I reckon you know that anyway!

Depends on what is your definition of change. Or what is your definition of success and what satisfies you. I still do not perceive any change having taken place as far as my club's fortunes are concerned. I will call change when I see it happen for real.

 

[RedBanker]

Who from now on in will be known as the Nearly 29%ers

Now on?

 

[Class of 63]

Now on?

I've been called everything under the Sun for supporting the Manager but not yet a nearly 29%er, so yeah

And i'll wear it as a badge of honour, more so when Ole and his band of merry men ft. Uncle Mikey take us back to the Promised Land.

 

[James Ward]

What I hope our team looks like next season and the likes of Mata, Pogba, Jlingz, Andreas, Jones, Sanchez, Rojo all shown the door.

If Ole can pull this off in the Summer I would be over the moon.

Defense: Shaw, AWB, Maguire, VL, Bailey, Smalling, Dalot, Williams.

Midfield: Scott, Fred, Fernandez, New CM, New DM.

Attackers: Rashford, Greenwood, Martial, James, New RW , New CF

Is four signings realistic with the Pogba money or even three if Pogba stays?

Obviously Sancho(Pogba money), Werner, Grealish and Ndidi would be ideal signings!

 

[RedBanker]

I've been called everything under the Sun for supporting the Manager but not yet a nearly 29%er, so yeah

And i'll wear it as a badge of honour, more so when Ole and his band of merry men ft. Uncle Mikey take us back to the Promised Land.

I don't think so. For ages man has known these 28.8 ers. They are a fabled bunch. The real men who state at goats.

 

[The Boy]

Depends on what is your definition of change. Or what is your definition of success and what satisfies you. I still do not perceive any change having taken place as far as my club's fortunes are concerned. I will call change when I see it happen for real.

well then isn’t it worth reopening the poll unless we’re presuming everyone thinks exactly the same as you.

 

[Zlatan Ibrahomovic]

Don't understand this thread.

There are little signs of improvement all over the place. Players are actually, individually, improving under Solskjaer.

Mctominay has gone from being a prospect to a player.
Rashford has gone from being talented to being a star.
Shaw has gone from being past it to being top quality.
Martial has gone from unreliable to providing to providing really strong numbers.
Fred has gone from a liability to the first name on the team sheet.

While some players have gone in the other direction, like Lingard and Andreas, even if that was Solskjaers fault he should not be blamed for it, since they were never good enough anyway.

Sacking Solskjaer now would be like sacking the gardener in the middle of spring. All the good work that had be done until then would be for naught - and the weed would take over again by summer.

 

[RedBanker]

well then isn’t it worth reopening the poll unless we’re presuming everyone thinks exactly the same as you.

I stated my personal opinion. Which worth jack all in real life. I just hope we do not miss out on managers who can make a difference.

As far as poll is concerned, I think it's about freezing the opinions on a given date. If polls are reopened every two weeks, the whole sanctity of the poll goes for a toss. If we lose the next three games and then poll is reopened? If poll has to be reopened let's wait till say First week of May by which time the picture will be clear.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

He should still be gone by the end of the season. Yesterday again shows that we are mostly threatening on counter attacks and the counter attacks have become much scarier and effective with Bruno in the team.

I also don't like the notion that Ole out wants us to lose. Speaking for myself I think it's a very wrong take. Wanting Ole out is a win win situation for me. If Ole fails here I get what I want and he is sacked. If he succeeds I also get what I want because it means my club succeeds too which is why I'm even Ole out in the first place

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Will this win change a few minds.

Good win. Counts for nothing on here I assume. Ah well.

Just so that other posters are aware, this fecking thread, which should be on page fecking 22 now, always end up at the top of the forum because of shit like this. These were the first two posts after yesterday's win, the first posts in like 36 hours.

We beat Watford at home, Watford, with the forth shittest defensive record in the league and the 3rd worst away record overall.

Let this damn thread die for a while, Ole aint getting sacked before the Summer and it'll take more than a couple of wins to convince any doubters that Ole should be given another season, come back in here all smug in May when he's won over 50% of his matches since getting Fernandes in the team and shown genuine sustained progress.

 

[Champagne Football]

The Bruno signing is starting to show that Ole simply has not had the quality of players to compete. Every one of Ole's big name signings looks like a Utd player. I think if we land Sancho and Grealish in the summer then we'll be challenging for 2nd place with Ole at the wheel , which is where we want to be next season, and build from that.

 

[b82REZ]

Just so that other posters are aware, this fecking thread, which should be on page fecking 22 now, always end up at the top of the forum because of shit like this. These were the first two posts after yesterday's win, the first posts in like 36 hours.

We beat Watford at home, Watford, with the forth shittest defensive record in the league and the 3rd worst away record overall.

Let this damn thread die for a while, Ole aint getting sacked before the Summer and it'll take more than a couple of wins to convince any doubters that Ole should be given another season, come back in here all smug in May when he's won over 50% of his matches since getting Fernandes in the team and shown genuine sustained progress.

This.

Just surprised you didn't manage to find a quote claiming Ole Out voters have crawled back under their rocks.

 

[Smores]

The Bruno signing is starting to show that Ole simply has not had the quality of players to compete. Every one of Ole's big name signings looks like a Utd player. I think if we land Sancho and Grealish in the summer then we'll be challenging for 2nd place with Ole at the wheel , which is where we want to be next season, and build from that.

It shows better players produce better performances, i mean crazy right who would have thought it! Maybe if we buy the best player in the world in every position we might even improve some more.

The manager gets judged on what he gets out of the players available and he's been getting less out of them than possible. To win titles we need a manager who gets a lot out of his players. You'd think united fans of all people would recognise this considering we had the greatest manager at it.

Or we can just pretend it's like football manager and rely solely on players quality raising our game.

 

[Massive Spanner]

It was a good week in isolation. I think my main issue is that we've had weeks like this before, even better weeks than this, only to turn back to shit immediately thereafter. Bruno looks great, but I'm still very unconvinced by Maguire and James, and AWB is hit and miss, so I don't agree that he's doing some great squad rebuild, albeit he does deserve major credit for the improvement in the likes of Fred and Shaw.

I'm still of the stance that he should be replaced in the summer if a more proven at building sides and tactically astute manager is available, though if he gets top four and has a good run in the cup competitions it will be hard to argue against another season then, and I'd love if that did happen, but as I said, my main concern is whether this week is a genuine step forward for us or another false positive. Let's wait and see.

 

[Withnail]

It shows better players produce better performances, i mean crazy right who would have thought it! Maybe if we buy the best player in the world in every position we might even improve some more.

The manager gets judged on what he gets out of the players available and he's been getting less out of them than possible. To win titles we need a manager who gets a lot out of his players. You'd think united fans of all people would recognise this considering we had the greatest manager at it.

Or we can just pretend it's like football manager and rely solely on players quality raising our game.

Exactly, he isn't making the team greater than the sum of their parts and that is why he'll eventually be proven not to be good enough.

There have been improvements in individual players but they still play like a bunch of individuals all trying to do their own thing.

Look at what Fred said. You see it played out every game and Fernandes settling in well and helping us beat relegation fodder or an inconsistent Chelsea hasn't changed that.

 

[ReddBalls]

The manager gets judged on what he gets out of the players available

I believe most who wants Ole to continue actually does this. Just sayin'.

 

[theklr]

Those 3 managers eventually all got sacked, but have had better records than him. I just don't think giving Ole another transfer window is going to change much. And quite possibly, could set us back further.

Yeah, because our transfers so far has been horrible right. If we add another 2 players of the same calibre as our current new signings we'll be top 4 more or less by default.

I still agree that he has alot of failings, especially with our current play outside of the counters. And I do think Pochettino or Allegri or whatever could do better, but that would be with the squad he had built and the improvement in the current players he has made.

And he will always have my gratitude for that. Who other manager would gamble on selling Lukaku ?

 

[Handsome Devil]

Once again we are within spitting distance of Chelsea and fourth place. Everytime this has happened in recent history, we have thrown a collective wobble. Is Ole capable of banishing this curse?

 

[Shark]

Once again we are within spitting distance of Chelsea and fourth place. Everytime this has happened in recent history, we have thrown a collective wobble. Is Ole capable of banishing this curse?

If the end of last season is anything to go by, probably not.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

It shows better players produce better performances, i mean crazy right who would have thought it! Maybe if we buy the best player in the world in every position we might even improve some more.

The manager gets judged on what he gets out of the players available and he's been getting less out of them than possible. To win titles we need a manager who gets a lot out of his players. You'd think united fans of all people would recognise this considering we had the greatest manager at it.

Or we can just pretend it's like football manager and rely solely on players quality raising our game.

This is the basis of the Ole out/Ole in argument. Ole in thinks that Ole or no manager can get much out of the squad we have due to injuries or the 'average' players like Lingard, Pereira, Matic etc. While Ole out thinks that Ole should be able to do better with this squad in terms of style of play and results.

I'm Ole out because I can site examples of managers with a squad not as good as ours that gets his team to play better than us

 

[Champagne Football]

Maybe if we buy the best player in the world in every position we might even improve some more.

We already tried that with Jose with disastrous results. The progress of Martial, Rashford, Fred, Shaw was seriously stunted during that time. Greenwood and Williams would still be without a cap if that philosophy had continued here.

There's a myth that Ole doesn't know how to coach the players. I think the catastrophic spending of 3 previous managers has meant the rebuild was far bigger than what other managers have had to deal with when taking over Arsenal, Spurs.

I'm not saying Ole is up there with elite managers, but it's clear that to play the way he wants to, you have to have players of a certain ability, which we haven't had but we might slowly be getting there.

 

[Mainoldo]

We already tried that with Jose with disastrous results. The progress of Martial, Rashford, Fred, Shaw was seriously stunted during that time. Greenwood and Williams would still be without a cap if that philosophy had continued here.

There's a myth that Ole doesn't know how to coach the players. I think the catastrophic spending of 3 previous managers has meant the rebuild was far bigger than what other managers have had to deal with when taking over Arsenal, Spurs.

I'm not saying Ole is up there with elite managers, but it's clear that to play the way he wants to, you have to have players of a certain ability, which we haven't had but we might slowly be getting there.

So why not look at the bigger picture like most people. Some coaches don’t like brining through youth. Jose Conte for etc. Some coaches can manage youth to and develops them. We need a coach that does the latter but at a better standard. Ole’s football is also dire.

 

[InspiRED]

To you maybe it sounds "basic", but playing simple football is the most difficult thing in the world. Our players tend to over-complicate things, they either take way too many touches and the attacking momentum is lost, or they chose the wrong decision (can't spot a player in a better position, they go for the shot instead of a pass, attempt to dribble when they should pass it etc) so we end up playing ourself into trouble because we take the most difficult route to goal. For example, when we had Rashford fit and firing he made run after run behind the opposition defensive line, excellent runs, and no a single teammate picked him out. Other players also made excellent runs but where ignored by their teammates. I saw visibly frustrated attackers (especially Rashford) almost every game. Imagine if we had taken the simple route instead.

One thing we will never know for sure is if it's due to the coaching or the players, but we quite clearly don't play the way Ole wants. It's funny though because as soon as we get a quality player like Bruno, instantly he performs at a level above the rest. It seem to me that we have shit squad and Ole can't do much about it.

I see you're mentioning Guardiola an an example of how attacking should/could work. Guardiola indeed uses a more complex system with very strict instructions especially in the build-up, but Klopp on the other hand plays extremely "basic" football and it works to perfection. His basic idea is to use fullbacks to cross the ball into the box, and it fecking works. Not to sound like Klopp's biggest fan, but he has managed to get his team to play very simple football effectively, and it's due to having the right personnel and good coaching. Ferguson also mastered the art of simple football, all his successful teams over the years played direct, simple, attacking football. From my observation I see Ole attempting to play simple football but can't manage it due to lack of quality in the squad. It takes time to build a team like that. You don't have to play like Guardiola to be successful.

This is a good post and has given me food for thought. However I'm still not certain it lends more credence to Ole. Like, if he wanted to play 'simple football' that is gonna rely on expansive use of the pitch like we did under SAF and Liverpool too, in which case the type of full back becomes paramount. So why would be sanction signing of AWB who is incredible at defending and pretty average and clueless going forward (though he is getting better and I like him as a player). You would think if that was your plan to be expansive and play 'simply', that for £50m, in the whole of world football, you would be able to find a fullback who can deliver balls into the box like TAA or get past defenders, as well as be decent at defending. It's another part of the things that 'don't add up' about his tenure. Just like with the 'ok im not gonna replace Lukaku, it will be ok, oh shit its january and we have injuries can we please get any striker in from anywhere thanks'.

 

[ReddBalls]

This is a good post and has given me food for thought. However I'm still not certain it lends more credence to Ole. Like, if he wanted to play 'simple football' that is gonna rely on expansive use of the pitch like we did under SAF and Liverpool too, in which case the type of full back becomes paramount. So why would be sanction signing of AWB who is incredible at defending and pretty average and clueless going forward (though he is getting better and I like him as a player). You would think if that was your plan to be expansive and play 'simply', that for £50m, in the whole of world football, you would be able to find a fullback who can deliver balls into the box like TAA or get past defenders, as well as be decent at defending. It's another part of the things that 'don't add up' about his tenure. Just like with the 'ok im not gonna replace Lukaku, it will be ok, oh shit its january and we have injuries can we please get any striker in from anywhere thanks'.

I think he signed him because, as a previous winger, AWB should have the potential of being good offensively. He's 21. There has been obvious signs that they are working on getting him to play more offensively lately, like his assist to Martial against Chelsea.

 

[Bobcat]

It shows better players produce better performances, i mean crazy right who would have thought it! Maybe if we buy the best player in the world in every position we might even improve some more.

The manager gets judged on what he gets out of the players available and he's been getting less out of them than possible. To win titles we need a manager who gets a lot out of his players. You'd think united fans of all people would recognise this considering we had the greatest manager at it.

Or we can just pretend it's like football manager and rely solely on players quality raising our game.

True, but if there is one thing Ole has gotten credit for, even from some of the people who want him out its how he has improved individual players. Rashford, Martial and Fred has undoubtedly improved under him, McTomminay and Shaw its hard to tell because the former is so young and he might just follow his natural development and Shaw has been good before, but has always been set back by injuries and poor form.

Greenwood and Williams is also hard to tell with certainty. Both of them, especially Greenwood has had a very solid debut season, but he might have had that under any manager. Individually i think there has been some tangible improvements, but as a team as a whole we have some ways to go.

No doubt the results overall have been disappointing, but Brunos arrival i think sheds some light on exactly how dire our midfield situation has been in Pogbas absence. Hes been here less than a month and is already looking like twice the player of his competitors.

 

[Smores]

We already tried that with Jose with disastrous results. The progress of Martial, Rashford, Fred, Shaw was seriously stunted during that time. Greenwood and Williams would still be without a cap if that philosophy had continued here.

There's a myth that Ole doesn't know how to coach the players. I think the catastrophic spending of 3 previous managers has meant the rebuild was far bigger than what other managers have had to deal with when taking over Arsenal, Spurs.

I'm not saying Ole is up there with elite managers, but it's clear that to play the way he wants to, you have to have players of a certain ability, which we haven't had but we might slowly be getting there.

You say it's a myth but thats just an opinion and one that not many share. I personally think when you look around the league even just this season it's obvious which managers get a lot out of their players due to coaching/system. Unfortunately we're not one of them. That could be on Ole or the coaches but the distinction is meaningless.

You could be right of course that Ole's plan only works with top players and maybe at that point everything will click and he'll get more out of them. We heard that with LvG too and likewise unless Ole gets CL qualification i don't think we'll take that risk and why should we? A long term view does not mean you neglect the here and now, you have to prove yourself within the conditions you are in to earn that right.

 

[midnightmare]

You say it's a myth but thats just an opinion and one that not many share. I personally think when you look around the league even just this season it's obvious which managers get a lot out of their players due to coaching/system. Unfortunately we're not one of them. That could be on Ole or the coaches but the distinction is meaningless.

You could be right of course that Ole's plan only works with top players and maybe at that point everything will click and he'll get more out of them. We heard that with LvG too and likewise unless Ole gets CL qualification i don't think we'll take that risk and why should we? A long term view does not mean you neglect the here and now, you have to prove yourself within the conditions you are in to earn that right.

I'm just going to try and be a contrarian here. I'm not Ole-in by any measure, but this is something I don't quite subscribe to. Let me explain why.

Take managers like Big Sam (or Dyche). By most measures, Sam got more out of his sides than he should have when he managed smaller teams. Same argument with Dyche. But most people laughed off the idea that "Allardici" would win things with a top club. The common assessment was that he was a fantastic battler of relegation, but would struggle with top sides because of his setup and style. This was vindicated (in most people's eyes) too. It's an art, but not the greatest one, to build a well-drilled system designed to theoretically over-perform with a bunch of very limited players when the expectation is to avoid relegation or be mid-table at best. It is easier to make a system that works when you have an (almost, if not entirely) uniformly average group of players. They're normally at ease with a system designed around their limitations. The same is obviously applicable when you have a uniformly excellent group. You can make a system that relies on excellence across the pitch. Still an art of course, but not the most difficult thing in the world.

Things become different though when you are at a club with bigger ambitions and also, when your group is more disparate. When you have a sprinkling (say 3-5) of very good players with some (say 3-4) abysmal / deeply average players in the mix too. Now, the manager must either ask all the better players to play at the level of the weakest links or design a system geared for the good players and try to "make the most of what you have" with the lesser ones, while you work to fix the gaps. The latter approach will lead to a bunch of occasions when the average players let you down massively - and also situations which frustrate your better players, with the odd occasions that everything "just clicks". Would United, for example, be better off this season with a strongly regimented approach of play designed to cater to the limitations of ball-playing of our midfielders (pre-Bruno and without Pogba)? Quite definitely. Enough evidence even in Jose's stint to justify this hypothesis. That said, play a system geared towards having good players and there's a chance that the system could almost instantly (hopefully) show dramatically improved results the moment you get better players into those positions that the average / abysmal players (like Young, Mata, Pereira, Lingard etc.) were occupying.

TL/DR: I don't subscribe to the view that managers "getting more out of a limited squad" is always a great measure as it's easier to manage a uniformly average squad than one with islands of excellence and some troughs of abysmal mediocrity.

 

[theklr]

I'm just going to try and be a contrarian here. I'm not Ole-in by any measure, but this is something I don't quite subscribe to. Let me explain why.

Take managers like Big Sam (or Dyche). By most measures, Sam got more out of his sides than he should have when he managed smaller teams. Same argument with Dyche. But most people laughed off the idea that "Allardici" would win things with a top club. The common assessment was that he was a fantastic battler of relegation, but would struggle with top sides because of his setup and style. This was vindicated (in most people's eyes) too. It's an art, but not the greatest one, to build a well-drilled system designed to theoretically over-perform with a bunch of very limited players when the expectation is to avoid relegation or be mid-table at best. It is easier to make a system that works when you have an (almost, if not entirely) uniformly average group of players. They're normally at ease with a system designed around their limitations. The same is obviously applicable when you have a uniformly excellent group. You can make a system that relies on excellence across the pitch. Still an art of course, but not the most difficult thing in the world.

Things become different though when you are at a club with bigger ambitions and also, when your group is more disparate. When you have a sprinkling (say 3-5) of very good players with some (say 3-4) abysmal / deeply average players in the mix too. Now, the manager must either ask all the better players to play at the level of the weakest links or design a system geared for the good players and try to "make the most of what you have" with the lesser ones, while you work to fix the gaps. The latter approach will lead to a bunch of occasions when the average players let you down massively - and also situations which frustrate your better players, with the odd occasions that everything "just clicks". Would United, for example, be better off this season with a strongly regimented approach of play designed to cater to the limitations of ball-playing of our midfielders (pre-Bruno and without Pogba)? Quite definitely. Enough evidence even in Jose's stint to justify this hypothesis. That said, play a system geared towards having good players and there's a chance that the system could almost instantly (hopefully) show dramatically improved results the moment you get better players into those positions that the average / abysmal players (like Young, Mata, Pereira, Lingard etc.) were occupying.

TL/DR: I don't subscribe to the view that managers "getting more out of a limited squad" is always a great measure as it's easier to manage a uniformly average squad than one with islands of excellence and some troughs of abysmal mediocrity.

So true. Not to mention how big effect the "under-dogs" mentality has for those kind of teams. Just look how well it goes for us when we are the inferior team. Guts, graft and mentality can work wonders.