Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[roonster09]

McT has still issues with his passing, positional sense and as a player I don't see much improvement in his game, rather than playing time and experience. In what areas has McT improved compared to last year?

Rashford has the same numbers in terms of goals/assists per mins compared to last year if you discount penalties. Even slightly worse. This is considering he's our leading scorer and also having zero competition to his place and being focal point to our attack.

Rashford 18/19 - 10 goals / 7 assists in 2.343 minutes - 0 penalties.
Rashford 19/20 - 14 goals / 4 assists in 1.882 minutes - 5 penalties.

18/19 - Goals/assists from open play - once every 137 minutes.
19/20 - Goals/assists from open play - once every 144 minutes.

These are his stats so far - taken from transfermarkd.

No one said McTominay is completely developed player. He is much more proactive player than he was in the past. In almost every metric he has improved, including his ability to carry the ball or winning more tackles.

Rashford also won every penalty he has scored except 1. So he is getting into attacking positions lot more than he was last season and also just watching him play, anyone would tell you he is making more runs and gets into more goal scoring positions..

He has 13 goals and 5 assists in 2364 mins from open play this season in all competitions. 131 mins per G+A
He has 12 goals and 9 assists in 3291 mins from open play last season in all competitions. 156 mins per G+A

He has won more penalties this season than rest of all the seasons combined (or very close to it), which itself shows his improvement.

Also most of the goals he scored last season was under Ole. He scored 3 goals in 14 league games under Jose.

 

[dirkey]

McT has still issues with his passing, positional sense and as a player I don't see much improvement in his game, rather than playing time and experience. In what areas has McT improved compared to last year?

Rashford has the same numbers in terms of goals/assists per mins compared to last year if you discount penalties. Even slightly worse. This is considering he's our leading scorer and also having zero competition to his place and being focal point to our attack.

Rashford 18/19 - 10 goals / 7 assists in 2.343 minutes - 0 penalties.
Rashford 19/20 - 14 goals / 4 assists in 1.882 minutes - 5 penalties.

18/19 - Goals/assists from open play - once every 137 minutes.
19/20 - Goals/assists from open play - once every 144 minutes.

These are his stats so far - taken from transfermarkd.

McTominay - right, so, in basically the same number of appearances this year as last, an extra goal and assist for a simple start. Way more passes, close to twice as many, shows he's being encouraged to get on the ball. Has created 2 big chances, compared to 0. Played way more accurate long balls.

Defensively, he's made 4 times as many tackles. He's blocked more shots, way more interceptions, more clearances, more headed clearances ... I'm gonna stop. I mean, across the charts, his numbers are better.

But, if you're saying it's only playing time and experience that caused him to improve, do you say the same for every young player who improves under a manager?

As for Rashford, you can throw your stats in there ... will you also add in that our team has, for the entirety of this season, been missing the one player who is actually capable of playing passes which release him behind teams? Or do you think his stats would look no better with Pogba in the team?

 

[Enigma_87]

It was so obvious you'd bring up the "play through pain" thing. Yeah probably not the best move by Ole but it doesn't discount the fact that Rashford has been a better player under him.

Seriously, it's really sad that you have to try discredit even the positive things Ole has done here like that. We already have enough sticks to beat him with without doing that, what's the point? Do you think the board are going "well look results are awful, transfers weren't great, we look a mess in every aspect really, we won't get Europe this year, but man.. look at what he did with Rashford and McT, let's keep him!"?

Because it isn't relative?

Injuries like that can become chronic and we have seen ending players careers.

To me Rashford is generally on the same level like last year. He's now our focal point of the attack and naturally he would get more chances to shine.

Even with the mismanagement, if you can't clearly see this as the season where Rashford has shown his best form and the clearest sign he could go on to have an amazing career for us, you just aren't worth discussing things with, sadly a lot on here aren't, too busy sticking to their in vs out team.

then don't reply. I've made my points, you don't agree, we can move on.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Rashford has been great. Although there is still lots of room for improvement. He is playing on his own a lot against parked busses.
Him and Martial has linked up well at times, but still would like them to be coached better to function with the rest of the team.

It is obvious Rashford likes the freedom he gets now, but some structure to his game would do him good too.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Because it isn't relative?

Injuries like that can become chronic and we have seen ending players careers.

To me Rashford is generally on the same level like last year. He's now our focal point of the attack and naturally he would get more chances to shine.


then don't reply. I've made my points, you don't agree, we can move on.

I agree, the same level he was under Ole last year, who he improved under.

I don't think many sane individuals will agree with you, really!

You sound just as ridiculous trying to discredit Ole as the likes of Class of 63 do defending him.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Pochettino seen last night attending a game with our new Spin Doctor?

I think Ole's gone in the summer and he knows it; to be honest, if that's the case then Ole is a proper good bloke because he's essentially putting on a brave face and refusing to rise to any bait, just guiding us towards the end-game before Pochettino takes over.

 

[UnitedSofa]

You left out the results bit and do you remember who left us with a thin and inconsistent squad? I'd argue that a lot of managers would do better than Ole because they wouldn't leave themselves so short to begin with and wouldn't persist with shit like Lingard either.

McT - naturally progressed with age.
Fred - should be given more time to see his actual improvement, before declaring he's the next best thing. Matic for one have been better in many games even though 90% want him out
Rashford - ran into the ground and injured due to being overplayed. He also posted similar numbers like last year so improvement is a bit of a stretch, the difference is that he takes the penos this year to boost his numbers.
Williams - can give you that.

On the flip side
Martial - regressed
his own signings - regressed, especially James who started very brightly but again is overplayed.
Gomes/Garner given zero chances, keep playing Lingard and Pereira despite being shite.

Squad being thin - again on him. 200m pounds spent over 6 months - surely could've filled more holes in the squad.

Deciding to get rid of senior players without replacement - again on him.

The bolded part is utter bollocks. We have been underperforming against very inferior teams and losing home and away.

Fact is - the team and club as a whole regressed from 6th position last year, despite spending ton of money in the Summer.

I'd argue the case that Ole wanted to fill the gaps but Woodward failed Ole on that part, which has lead Ole down the garden path he is on now, all summer Ole said he wanted a replacement in for Lukaku and he didn't get one.

Personally I'd say that fault lies with Woodward.

I am certain in my mind that Ole doesn't have the squad he currently wants and is relying on what he has at his disposal.

No manager would want to go into a season with such a slim squad.

Yes he may say in public that he's happy with the squad, but in private I suspect it's very different.

You have to utilise what we have in the squad, so if that means playing a lingard over a youth team player then so be it. If he played an inexperienced youth player and still got the same results, there'd be people saying why doesn't he play experienced players!?

This is hilarious. If Poch came in and improved the same players, it'd have nothing to do with age. It'd be Poch's talent at improving young players.

It's amazing when people try and make things up to take away the good things Ole has done. Has he done everything well? Absolutely not. But to just make things up to try and make him look worse than he already does is just silly.

Ole has done tons of good things for the club but people are too willing to dismiss them

I'm an Ole In Fan, as it's so called, yes. But am I blinded by the fact that results aren't good enough. No.

But, I'm willing to ride it out and see what happens and see where things take us. Heck, I'd be willing to let Ole run down his contract and see where he takes us.

It's only another year and half.

If things haven't changed then, then look at where we are and where he's taking us.

But the youth promotion and buying the right players is by far one of the best things OIe has done for us.

He's just got to work on getting more players in and getting rid of players who simply aren't good enough.

 

[Enigma_87]

No one said McTominay is completely developed player. He is much more proactive player than he was in the past. In almost every metric he has improved, including his ability to carry the ball or winning more tackles.

Rashford also won every penalty he has scored except 1. So he is getting into attacking positions lot more than he was last season and also just watching him play, anyone would tell you he is making more runs and gets into more goal scoring positions..

He has 13 goals and 5 assists in 2364 mins from open play this season in all competitions. 131 mins per G+A
He has 12 goals and 9 assists in 3291 mins from open play last season in all competitions. 156 mins per G+A

He has won more penalties this season than rest of all the seasons combined (or very close to it), which itself shows his improvement.

Also most of the goals he scored last season was under Ole. He scored 3 goals in 14 league games under Jose.

Which is relative to how we play this year compared to last year isn't it?

Use the same metrics - PL games as it is more than enough sample size and more fair representation rather than all competitions. Playing against Colchester and PSG is hardly the same isn't it?

 

[Withnail]

Sounds like our current manager.....

MCT - Improved
Fred - Imrpoved
Rashford - Improved
Williams - Promoted

What else do Poch fans actually want?!

We got everything that your clamouring for right here!

The squad's thin and inconsistent, no manager who comes in would do any better than Ole with the current squad.

Say Poch did come in and he was left with the dire state the squads in and he had to deal with the same injuries that Ole's team has had. He wouldn't do much better!

How can anyone believe that a better manager wouldn't get more out of a squad?

 

[UnitedSofa]

Pochettino seen last night attending a game with our new Spin Doctor?

I think Ole's gone in the summer and he knows it; to be honest, if that's the case then Ole is a proper good bloke because he's essentially putting on a brave face and refusing to rise to any bait, just guiding us towards the end-game before Pochettino takes over.

or he's out with a friend seeing another friend in Biesla?

Doubt United would be that silly to be seen in public with Poch if it was a business meeting it'd be done behind closed doors and not in public with Sky cameras everywhere

 

[Enigma_87]

I agree, the same level he was under Ole last year, who he improved under.

I don't think many sane individuals will agree with you, really!

You sound just as ridiculous trying to discredit Ole as the likes of Class of 63 do defending him.

So, let's say we hired Poch or a better coach last year. McT and Rashford wouldn't have developed the same way or even better?

These are the metrics that you have to consider.

 

[Massive Spanner]

So, let's say we hired Poch or a better coach last year. McT and Rashford wouldn't have developed the same way or even better?

These are the metrics that you have to consider.

They may have, but they have under Ole. He deserves credit for that. Just like he deserves criticism for how some other players have regressed under him. You can't have it both ways.

if a player improves under a manager, said manager should be accredited for it. Simple.

 

[Enigma_87]

McTominay - right, so, in basically the same number of appearances this year as last, an extra goal and assist for a simple start. Way more passes, close to twice as many, shows he's being encouraged to get on the ball. Has created 2 big chances, compared to 0. Played way more accurate long balls.

Defensively, he's made 4 times as many tackles. He's blocked more shots, way more interceptions, more clearances, more headed clearances ... I'm gonna stop. I mean, across the charts, his numbers are better.

But, if you're saying it's only playing time and experience that caused him to improve, do you say the same for every young player who improves under a manager?

As for Rashford, you can throw your stats in there ... will you also add in that our team has, for the entirety of this season, been missing the one player who is actually capable of playing passes which release him behind teams? Or do you think his stats would look no better with Pogba in the team?

If we had a better manager in the Summer, get a proper recruitment, not blow it all on defenders, get a proper tactics and also in game management. Rest players when they need not take them out for several months - yes all players including McT and Rashford would've been better and reach even better heights.

 

[roonster09]

Which is relative to how we play this year compared to last year isn't it?

Use the same metrics - PL games as it is more than enough sample size and more fair representation rather than all competitions. Playing against Colchester and PSG is hardly the same isn't it?

So playing style is the reason, wonder who influence that.

Also last season all his best form came under Ole. With Jose he scored 3 goals in 14 games, probably won 0 penalties. This season he scored more and won lot of penalties.

 

[roonster09]

They may have, but they have under Ole. He deserves credit for that. Just like he deserves criticism for how some other players have regressed under him. You can't have it both ways.

if a player improves under a manager, said manager should be accredited for it. Simple.

Exactly. It's not even hard, i mean easier than coming out with hypothetical scenarios.

 

[Class of 63]

I agree, the same level he was under Ole last year, who he improved under.

I don't think many sane individuals will agree with you, really!

You sound just as ridiculous trying to discredit Ole as the likes of Class of 63 do defending him.

There's no need for that

 

[Class of 63]

Pochettino seen last night attending a game with our new Spin Doctor?

I think Ole's gone in the summer and he knows it; to be honest, if that's the case then Ole is a proper good bloke because he's essentially putting on a brave face and refusing to rise to any bait, just guiding us towards the end-game before Pochettino takes over.

Our spin Doctor was also seen with Graham Gooch, maybe we're finally bringing in a batting coach!

 

[Enigma_87]

They may have, but they have under Ole. He deserves credit for that. Just like he deserves criticism for how some other players have regressed under him. You can't have it both ways.

if a player improves under a manager, said manager should be accredited for it. Simple.

That's kind of irrelevant to the whole picture. We are not Bournemouth to set the bar that low. He is paid millions for the job.

And for one the player that has shown most hasn't been mentioned so far - Mason.

 

[Enigma_87]

So playing style is the reason, wonder who influence that.

Also last season all his best form came under Ole. With Jose he scored 3 goals in 14 games, probably won 0 penalties. This season he scored more and won lot of penalties.

It's not hypothetical to expect both Rashford and McT to be even better players this year under a proper manager, tactics, better squad and not to play them non stop till they get injured isn't it?

 

[AneRu]

I'd argue the case that Ole wanted to fill the gaps but Woodward failed Ole on that part, which has lead Ole down the garden path he is on now, all summer Ole said he wanted a replacement in for Lukaku and he didn't get one.

Personally I'd say that fault lies with Woodward.

I am certain in my mind that Ole doesn't have the squad he currently wants and is relying on what he has at his disposal.

No manager would want to go into a season with such a slim squad.

Yes he may say in public that he's happy with the squad, but in private I suspect it's very different.

You have to utilise what we have in the squad, so if that means playing a lingard over a youth team player then so be it. If he played an inexperienced youth player and still got the same results, there'd be people saying why doesn't he play experienced players!?




Ole has done tons of good things for the club but people are too willing to dismiss them

I'm an Ole In Fan, as it's so called, yes. But am I blinded by the fact that results aren't good enough. No.

But, I'm willing to ride it out and see what happens and see where things take us. Heck, I'd be willing to let Ole run down his contract and see where he takes us.

It's only another year and half.

If things haven't changed then, then look at where we are and where he's taking us.

But the youth promotion and buying the right players is by far one of the best things OIe has done for us.

He's just got to work on getting more players in and getting rid of players who simply aren't good enough.

This is so wrong, you utilize your players in the squad but if they consistently let you and the team down then the manager has the responsibility to drop them and give others a chance. Imo Lingard and Pereira are lost causes whilst there is a chance that Gomes could have benefited from the minutes allocated to them and become a viable long term first team player but Ole was too attached to Lingard to invest the necessary minutes in the youngster.

The problem with the second line of thought is that poor performances cost the team money so if you are going to be taking a risk, every decision is a risk of sorts, you got to have a lot to go on, at least much more than getting relegated with Cardiff. In another two years we may not have the funds to spend to reverse the tide which will make the rebuilding task much more difficult if not impossible. Poor results haven't just started when Rashford and McT got injured, the team imploded in last season's run in and he failed to rein in the malaise - at a proper big club he would have been sacked for that alone - do you see Bayern, Juve or Real Madrid tolerating that run and then blindly giving him a hundred million to spend? He should count himself extremely lucky that we have bean counters calling the shots, in a proper football environment he shouldn't have survived the Newcastle defeat.

 

[Massive Spanner]

That's kind of irrelevant to the whole picture. We are not Bournemouth to set the bar that low. He is paid millions for the job.

And for one the player that has shown most hasn't been mentioned so far - Mason.

You keep trying to go off on tangents but I've already made my stance clear.

if a manager improves the players at his disposal, he deserves credit for it. Ole has done that with Rashford and McT. Whatever about their natural progression, or what would've happened under a different manager, or whatever other whataboutisms you can try and muster, it is an indisputable fact.

I wonder if it was Poch managing us, and the players showed similar levels of improvement under him, would you be using the same excuses, i.e. "well if Ole was here they would've improved the same under him too, so he deserves no credit at all, if anything he's done a bad job because they would've improved anyway."

 

[Enigma_87]

Exactly. It's not even hard, i mean easier than coming out with hypothetical scenarios.

And we completely overlook Rashford development being halted due to being overplayed, then injured and now missing probably the rest of the season and in doubt for the EURO?

If that injury becomes chronic would you fault Ole for that ?

 

[roonster09]

It's not hypothetical to expect both Rashford and McT to be even better players this year under a proper manager, tactics, better squad and not to play them non stop till they get injured isn't it?

Who knows, the post was about McTominay and Rashford's improvement, not who would have improved them most than others.

Also who even knows whether they would have played key roles under different manager, McTominay barely played under Jose and he was regular player since Feb IIRC. Rashford and Martial used to rotate for left wing position, now both are undisputed starters in the team. All this because Ole planned and changed their roles from rotational/back up players to key players.

If we had someone else, maybe they would have signed other CMs or LWs and still used these players as rotation players.

 

[dirkey]

If we had a better manager in the Summer, get a proper recruitment, not blow it all on defenders, get a proper tactics and also in game management. Rest players when they need not take them out for several months - yes all players including McT and Rashford would've been better and reach even better heights.

OK. So, you just completely ignore my point. Fair enough. I've seen how illogical you are in this argument throughout the thread, so I'm not overly surprised. You'll use metrics to support your argument, but ignore metrics when they don't support it.

It's fine that you're not an Ole fan. You think Poch would do a better job. That's fine. But to completely discredit the good things that Ole has done, and he has done them, does one thing. Discredits your own argument.

 

[roonster09]

And we completely overlook Rashford development being halted due to being overplayed, then injured and now missing probably the rest of the season and in doubt for the EURO?

If that injury becomes chronic would you fault Ole for that ?

Players getting injured is common in football, yes he was overplayed.

You are just moving the goal posts and making up completely different argument. Even if his development is halted, he is better than he was under Jose, which means Rashford is improved player under Ole, which was the point.

 

[Bobcat]

And we completely overlook Rashford development being halted due to being overplayed, then injured and now missing probably the rest of the season and in doubt for the EURO?

If that injury becomes chronic would you fault Ole for that ?

Stress fractures are very common among young athletes, and its hardy career threatening unless you completely disregard them. Rashford has had back problems ever since he was in the academy, and that bone healing device everyone was losing their minds about is something he has been using for years.

Stress fractures are born out of repetitive activity. Also, you have to keep in mind that these players train every single day, the time they are on the pitch is only a small percentage of the physical activity and stress they put their bodies through. Rashford playing too much is only part of the equation.

A mate of mine is a semi-pro/pro indoors volleyball player and stress fractures in the tibia/shin is very common. Early in his career in his early twenties he struggled a lot with this. In that case it was not the amount of games he played, it was how he trained and did his recovery. New training regimen, some small changes to his diet and hes now playing much more at 30+ than he did in his early twenties with no injury problems.

None of our coaches have medical degrees. They have to work from whatever info the medical team and physios pass on to them. They knew he struggled a bit, but he was still declared fit enough to join the squad vs Wolves

Edit: https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...arcus-Rashford-back-drive-training-Carrington

He might be back sooner than we thought

 

[ex and]

It maybe a mute point, but Inter played Lukaku, Young and Sanchez against AC Milan, and won and are now top of serie. A. All the above players basically failed in Ole’s team, but are playing well for Conte.

 

[Enigma_87]

OK. So, you just completely ignore my point. Fair enough. I've seen how illogical you are in this argument throughout the thread, so I'm not overly surprised. You'll use metrics to support your argument, but ignore metrics when they don't support it.

It's fine that you're not an Ole fan. You think Poch would do a better job. That's fine. But to completely discredit the good things that Ole has done, and he has done them, does one thing. Discredits your own argument.

My point was that both Rashford and McT followed their natural progression. They would've improved under better manager and coach. To me their improvement isn't a significant factor that you can make a case out of it - that's my point.

So far the numbers and metrics I've used is just to highlight that Rashford wasn't that different compared to last season when he was one of our best players. McT was abysmal in some games too and yes you can say he's not a finished article, but to me he would have been even better under a better manager.

Squad and recruitment has failed and now we have a dysfunctional side with many gaps and we underachieve in terms of results too. This affects all players, including those mentioned.

Players getting injured is common in football, yes he was overplayed.

You are just moving the goal posts and making up completely different argument. Even if his development is halted, he is better than he was under Jose, which means Rashford is improved player under Ole, which was the point.

How is moving goal posts by first posting numbers of Rashford form last year and this year and then elaborating that a better coach would have improved him, whilst his form was natural progression from last year ? For you halting his development is not important - ok then.

To elaborate - to me he didn't improve those players at such significant rate to make a case out of it - that's my opinion. They still have flaws and would've been better under another manager who is a better coach. That's my take on it you can disagree and call it hypothetical (which of course it is, but to me more probable scenario).

 

[dirkey]

It's not hypothetical to expect both Rashford and McT to be even better players this year under a proper manager, tactics, better squad and not to play them non stop till they get injured isn't it?

I guess you're saying Ole is a better manager than Jose so?

 

[Enigma_87]

Stress fractures are very common among young athletes, and its hardy career threatening unless you completely disregard them. Rashford has had back problems ever since he was in the academy player, and that bone healing device everyone was losing their minds about is something he has been using for years.

Stress fractures are born out of repetitive activity. Also, you have to keep in mind that these players train every single day, the time they are on the pitch is only a small percentage of the physical activity and stress they put their bodies through. Rashford playing too much is only part of the equation.

A mate of mine is a semi-pro/pro indoors volleyball player and stress fractures in the tibia/shin is very common. Early in his career in his early twenties he struggled a lot with this. In that case it was not the amount of games he played, it was how he trained and did his recovery. New training regimen, some small changes to his diet and hes now playing much more at 30+ than he did in his early twenties with no injury problems.

None of our coaches have medical degrees. They have to work from whatever info the medical team and physios pass on to them. They knew he struggled a bit, but he was still declared fit enough to join the squad vs Wolves

Which means it has to be monitored closely and taken care of. Being included in the group for Wolves makes no sense considering he couldn't sit straight the other day and also the whole team knowing he needs a rest. Proper management means giving him a rest.

Also stress fractures in the foot and in the back are different things mate. Back is a lot more dangerous.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Our spin Doctor was also seen with Graham Gooch, maybe we're finally bringing in a batting coach!

He wouldn't do any worse of a job in coaching attacking football than our current crop of coaches so I'd take a punt on him to be honest. He might open his mouth a few times on the bench as well, bonus.

 

[Sky1981]

Messi would have improved under ole. Doesnt meant he's the best manager for messi

 

[roonster09]

How is moving goal posts by first posting numbers of Rashford form last year and this year and then elaborating that a better coach would have improved him, whilst his form was natural progression from last year ? For you halting his development is not important - ok then.

To elaborate - to me he didn't improve those players at such significant rate to make a case out of it - that's my opinion. They still have flaws and would've been better under another manager who is a better coach. That's my take on it you can disagree and call it hypothetical (which of course it is, but to me more probable scenario).

His numbers improved under Ole last season too, which shows improvement was under Ole.

Yes its all hypothetical as you are assuming Rashford would have been first choice player and key player under different coach too, which he wasn't under his previous coach. Same with McTominay.

 

[Enigma_87]

I guess you're saying Ole is a better manager than Jose so?

I must have missed the part where he got injured under Jose for months because being overplayed and the squad being in the state it is now?

 

[dirkey]

My point was that both Rashford and McT followed their natural progression. They would've improved under better manager and coach. To me their improvement isn't a significant factor that you can make a case out of it - that's my point.

So far the numbers and metrics I've used is just to highlight that Rashford wasn't that different compared to last season when he was one of our best players. McT was abysmal in some games too and yes you can say he's not a finished article, but to me he would have been even better under a better manager.

Squad and recruitment has failed and now we have a dysfunctional side with many gaps and we underachieve in terms of results too. This affects all players, including those mentioned.



How is moving goal posts by first posting numbers of Rashford form last year and this year and then elaborating that a better coach would have improved him, whilst his form was natural progression from last year ? For you halting his development is not important - ok then.

To elaborate - to me he didn't improve those players at such significant rate to make a case out of it - that's my opinion. They still have flaws and would've been better under another manager who is a better coach. That's my take on it you can disagree and call it hypothetical (which of course it is, but to me more probable scenario).

Yep, I've already mentioned with regard to Rashford that he has been without, for the entire season, the only player in the squad capable of consistently playing clever passes that release him at the right time. Of course, you disregarded that point, because it didn't suit the agenda.

Regarding Rashford and McT following their natural progression - that's your spin on it. Plenty of us see improvement in them. I can more or less guarantee that if Poch was managing us, and they were showing the same progression, you'd be pointing to it as a sign that Poch is fabulous at developing young players. There'd be no mention of their "natural progression."

You're coming up with hypotheticals that they'd be better under better managers. Yes, they might be. But they might play less, they might not be in a system that suits them. Plenty of things can go wrong.

As for squad and recruitment, I think you can't just put that all on the manager. I would say most, if not all of that, is on Woodward. I think Ole came out a few times and said he wanted a striker. They were close on Dybala. Look at our history under Woodward. Slow negotiations, missing out on players repeatedly etc. I don't think the size of the squad is Ole's fault. My guess is he moved players out with the understanding that others would be coming in.

 

[Enigma_87]

His numbers improved under Ole last season too, which shows improvement was under Ole.

Yes its all hypothetical as you are assuming Rashford would have been first choice player and key player under different coach too, which he wasn't under his previous coach. Same with McTominay.

Again debatable and again I said last year vs this year(the latter part when he played under Ole is included of course). The numbers posted in PL are generally the same. His shot accuracy last season was 48%, this season 46%. Big chances created 4 this season in 22 games, 7 last season in 33.

Key pass per game 1.2 last year, 1.1 this year. Pass completion 78.1% last year, 76.9% this year.

 

[Bilbo]

This is so wrong, you utilize your players in the squad but if they consistently let you and the team down then the manager has the responsibility to drop them and give others a chance. Imo Lingard and Pereira are lost causes whilst there is a chance that Gomes could have benefited from the minutes allocated to them and become a viable long term first team player but Ole was too attached to Lingard to invest the necessary minutes in the youngster.

Gomes has shown little to nothing in any first team performances. In fact it shows how far away he is that he isn't able to force himself into this team (or even consideration for it) when he has had probably the easiest route to it that anyone could ever hope for. Williams and Greenwood took their chances. Tuanzebe is on the verge. Gomes and Chong are a million miles away, and wont make it at this level.

 

[dirkey]

And we completely overlook Rashford development being halted due to being overplayed, then injured and now missing probably the rest of the season and in doubt for the EURO?

If that injury becomes chronic would you fault Ole for that ?

I am surprised you're not beating this drum about Poch and Harry Kane? Did he overplay him? Did his use of Kane at a similar age lead to stunted development and injury?

 

[dirkey]

I must have missed the part where he got injured under Jose for months because being overplayed and the squad being in the state it is now?

And ... another strawman argument drawn up, refusing to answer the question.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Do rebuilding teams actually have to deteriorate significantly in the short run or is it just a myth? Liverpool, City, Chelsea never took that kind of massive hit to their status when they've come under solid management/ownership. Quite the opposite in fact, they slowly trended upwards till they peaked. Did we just invent this notion to excuse a failing manager?

That’s not really true, Liverpool have been crap for years finishing 8th etc, they just lucked out with klopp basically. They Havnt been wining leagues while rebuilding