Yeah those statistics are damning and if we carry on as we are Solskjaer will eventually be rightfully sacked.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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Being as far from top four once(last season) in the last 20 years or so after 9 games doesn't make it "normally" though. Normally after 9 rounds we are well within top 4 since Pl was established.
I've already had this conversation yesterday, you're welcome to go and read what I actually wrote.
I saw the post from yesterday and I disagree.
If you are looking at context 5 points off the top from 9 games isn't 7 points off top from 9 games, hence since it happened once it doesn't make it a regularity. It's a big difference on ppg basis. We literally have never had such a bad position since PL was established, both on points per game (after 9 rounds) and also being far from the top.
Furthermore the top four have been far from as consistent as last year in the opening 9 games. For example Spurs were 5th after 9 rounds winning 7 of their 9 games. There is a good reason for that. Spurs are under performing as well since half an year, Chelsea are inconsistent for obvious reasons and Arsenal are their usual self.
In essence after 9 rounds - we scored the least amount of goals since god knows when, got the least amount of points, are in the worst position in the table and closest to relegation zone as ever in PL.
However you spin it we are in our worst position since 9 games mate, not sure how it is even debatable.
If you are looking at context 5 points off the top from 9 games isn't 7 points off top from 9 games, hence since it happened once it doesn't make it a regularity. It's a big difference on ppg basis. We literally have never had such a bad position since PL was established, both on points per game (after 9 rounds) and also being far from the top.
Furthermore the top four have been far from as consistent as last year in the opening 9 games. For example Spurs were 5th after 9 rounds winning 7 of their 9 games. There is a good reason for that. Spurs are under performing as well since half an year, Chelsea are inconsistent for obvious reasons and Arsenal are their usual self.
In essence after 9 rounds - we scored the least amount of goals since god knows when, got the least amount of points, are in the worst position in the table and closest to relegation zone as ever in PL.
However you spin it we are in our worst position since 9 games mate, not sure how it is even debatable.
Let’s see if he can pick up the positives from last match and build on that. If not, I think he should go. The team is now in a position where it need to build long term. I don’t see any reason to take the risk to build long term with an inexperienced coach.
I'll say the same to you as I have others, I'm not debating that this is the worst we've done, why would I?
But Iregardless, for every season post Fergie that we've hired a new manager, after 9 matches we've been a minimum of 5 points away from the top four.
I think you've just read one or two posts and completely misunderstood my point, which is that despite being closer to relegation than normal, we're not massively worse off in relation to the top four.
Which is true, it's not debatable, it's just another way to look at the table and an interesting comparison when looking at this season compared to the last 5/6.
It isn't a defence of Solsjkaer or the results this season, it's purely just a different way of looking at it.
There is a big difference though. Ole got the job way before that. He worked with those core players for a 6 month period prior to attending the job. The barren run is also from last season and this one, despite spending 150-160m on new players we barely see any improvement.
All true, but doesn't change the statistics.
Again, not a defence of Ole or the way this season has gone.
If the results continue and Ole gets sacked then it would be difficult to argue it wasn't justified.
But the stat is what it is, after nine matches we tend to be a minimum of 5 points away from the top four when we get a new manager (Ole technically not new after having an interim period)
I did say it's a flawed stat for obvious reasons, but people aren't really interested in that, can't imagine why.
Are you a WUM or a moron? He won almost everything apart from the fecking European Cup with them. But he also won the Super Cup beating the then holders of the European Cup, HSV.
As for Sir Matt, it's wrong to say he had no coaching experience. He was the coach for the football team for the Army Physical Corp.
The issue is also not Molde. Ole has nothing to show he is a good coach.
Look at the match with Liverpool. Most people can see by the 75 or 80 min mark all players were all gone. Especially the midfield players. Any sensible coach would have sent on two fresh players into midfield. What did Ole do? Nothing. It's easy to blame Rojo but that cross should never have been allowed to be made. It was made because the players had nothing more to give.
It's the manager's fault for not managing the game. We still had two subs left. He snatched a draw from the jaws of a win.
Simply he is incompetent.
If we're too relaxed about this, we'll become the next Liverpool waiting for 30+ years to get title #21. We're already the new Arsenal fighting for the top 4 trophy every season
We'll defo become the next Liverpool if we keep hiring and firing managers..hiring the next best European manager because he did reasonably well in Spain/France, then jumping back to hire somebody who is young and did okay in England.. then feck that, let's try a man who has managed all over Europe... blah blah blah.. 30-years of it. No manager given the appropriate time it would take to turn the ship around ... until they tried another manager who was hot from Europe- this time Germany.
He finished 7th in his first season.. had a 39% win record... but did they sack him, like we would have? No. They kept with him, kept with him, kept with him., kept with him.. 4 years later he now manages arguably the best team in the land.
Time and patience is the only way back to the top,
Hiring and firing is a recipe to be the next Liverpool.
I'm gonna say it this way: I would MUCH rather be where we are now as a club, than where we were 2/3/4 years ago. Yes we mighta been better on the pitch, but we were going nowhere, no plan, no identity.
Now at least we have a clear plan we are working towards, we are so clearly trying to earn our identity back.... Yes, it will take 3-4 years for us to get back up there. But that is much better than it taking another quarter of a century which is what would happen if we keep firing and hiring.
Do I think Ole will win Prem League titles for us? No - I actually don't But I think he will restore the club to how it needs to be and when the time comes in 2-3 years to hand it over to a manager who will bring us back to the top, the squad and club will be in great shape... Whereas, if we keep firing and hiring, the squad will be messy as feck and the club will be in dire straits. Just like it has been the past 2/3/4/5 years. We all agree we want no more of that. Yet so many fans are calling for exactly that....
...Is there anything more ridiculous than a Man Utd fan who wants Ole out and Allegri in right now? It's as if they've never watched football in their lives. Or if they have, they have learned nothing from watching it.
I want my club back before I want trophies back.
It's only gonna be ideal to see us winning titles if we are winning them as Man United. Not as Chelsea playing in red.. hiring and firing and hiring and firing and then stumbling upon a title.. No thanks. I wanna give our club and manager the time it takes to ensure we are never Chelsea again.. as we have been for the past 5 years. Those who want Allegri in want us to be Chelsea.. those who want Ole to stable the ship and get us back to being Manchester United want us to be Manchester United.
Ha ha..
Only on RedCafe can you be called a WUM for backing your manager.
I swear, it's like a sitcom on here at times.
Read my post right above this one, mate.
Well, it did Help, didn't it.
Moyes-7th
LVG-4th
Jose-2nd
and every manager were an improvement on the other.
And the small matter of £900m - mostly wasted. Apart from.......Ole.
Money spent is irrelevant to the argument. The point I am trying to address it is that we have chopped managers in the past six seasons and it has worked in improving us over the seasons.
So, this argument that chopping and changing managers will not lead to success is non-nonsensical, because that is the only way to be successful, irrespective of how much we spend.
Not really, there was nothing heroic about that 2nd place finish.
Yeah, nothing more heroic than a relegation dog fight!
Still early days mate.
A draw with Liverpool and ‘keep’ gets more popular..
Poor result imo
Poor result imo
The biggest myth of them all. You need much more than that to get back to the top. Firstly a good structure upstairs where we clearly have the polar opposite. And managerial wise it has to be the right fit if time and patience is to be rewarded and Ole is clearly not. The man has something like 5 wins in the last 24 games or something, he's utterly out of his depth at this level of managing. As for Klopp, did you even watch Liverpool when he arrived? Only took around 2 months before you could clearly see what he was doing. He brought the Dortmund style with him to Liverpool and albeit having a poor first season they gave him the time to get his own players in and ship out a large mass of the dross that had been there for years.
He earned the time because he showed he was capable of changing the entire mentality over there as well as making them play a style which was promising and showed glimpses of what could have been if they had better players in the team. Ole has shown absolutely nothing. Good run after Mourinho got sacked and since that run ended it's been a nightmare ever since. We havn't won away from home since PSG and as a matter of fact we barely win any games at all. Draws and losses left to right accompanied with his disastrous one trick pony counter attacking football.
He shipped out our best midfielder after Pogba as well as our only proven goalscorer without replacing them. If this is what you call a clear plan we are working towards then god help us. Hate to say it but he needs to go with immediate effect. He's worse than Moyes.
Survivorship bias in a nutshell.
You're either a WUM or clueless about Sir Alex's career outside of United.
Sack him and then re-hire him as our caretaker manager.
We need to get those honeymoon period wins back.
We need to get those honeymoon period wins back.
Well as long as you are aware
Time and patience is best way back but you need competent people implementing the plan. We are just giving time and patience to i competent people and hoping it achieves the same results.
A big part of this debate as well is Ole is a defensive manager, he might say he wants to play attacking football but he’s as negative and defensive as any manager post SAF.
Klopp comparison is rubbish that people really need to stop spouting. Liverpool got lucky, one of the best sought after managers in world football fell into their laps and it’s pretty easy to see why he got some patience. Ole isn’t Klopp, never has been and never will be, he isn’t even Moyes, so sticking with him because a world class manager did a good job is completely illogical and irrelevant.
There’s nothing clever in backing this Woodward/Ole master plan, doesn’t make you a better fan and there is nothing tangible to back it up. It just means you’ve got blind faith everything will be ok based on empty promises from people with no pedigree for doing what they say they are going to do. Fingers crossed you’re right but failure is the most likely outcome.
Just watched Frank Lampard’s post match interview, Chelsea are playing Ajax. I’m not saying Frank’s going to be a success, it might unravel, but he’s head and shoulders ahead of Ole. His interviews command respect. He looks like a man who deserves to be there, not a naughty school kid who can’t stop grinning because he smacked the hot 21 year old substitute teacher on the bum and fooled everyone into thinking it was the straight A’s student that did it.
Things he talked about, most of which were directly related to us.
1) Legends working at the club. Can be great but need to be there on merit. Can’t just copy Ajax or Bayern, have to implement your own way and continuously adapt.
2) Yes youth development takes time, but you have to see daily and weekly improvement. That’s what I was most impressed by, his focus on the present and not using any long term plan as an excuse.
Things he talked about, most of which were directly related to us.
1) Legends working at the club. Can be great but need to be there on merit. Can’t just copy Ajax or Bayern, have to implement your own way and continuously adapt.
2) Yes youth development takes time, but you have to see daily and weekly improvement. That’s what I was most impressed by, his focus on the present and not using any long term plan as an excuse.
Patience is indeed important. If you have a look at the first team then we've got 4 players who are first team level ie DDG, Maguire, AWB and Pogba. We might say that we'll be able to sort the LW with the players we've currently got. Surely James, Martial or Rashy could do that. However that is all. We've got a couple of players that can be squad players (Lindelof, Tuanzebe, Shaw, McT) but that's all folks, the rest are shit
Under such circumstances its impossible for United to be sorted in one transfer window. Hell, we'll probably need half a decade to sort this problem. Considering that United will need ample money to sort this mess then we have to qualify to the CL as many times as possible either through top 4 (which is kind of impossible) or through the Europa league. Therefore the manager need to bring some positive results by working with what he's got even if the method he does that irks fans (defensive football etc)
I don't think Ole can do that.
A- He naively dismantled the team without making sure that the players he's selling were replaced first. The 'sell first only for the club to be unable to find adequate replacement' trick is as old as football itself. Ole fell right into it. Which is no surprise considering his lack of experience as manager
B- Ole's impact on the pitch was largely disappointing. He keeps rambling about fitness for nearly a year and yet most of the team is already knackered. Players are getting injured even during warming ups these days. Meanwhile his tactics are fount lacking while his obsession with pace is turning us into a one trick pony.
C- Ole's obsession with British players will mean that our entire budget will be blown on 2-3 players per year. That would take us ages to build the squad and by the time we sort one problem 2-3 new problems will crop up
To conclude yes, we need patience but we also need a manager whose got enough tactical awareness to excel despite having limited resources. A person who can tweak his philosophy around the players we've got and make this weak United punch above its weight. I can't see Ole doing that and the results kind of support this.
I also think that all this positive talk about his transfers is a bit OTT. First of all, players need time to be judged correctly. The likes of Bailly, Jones, Anderson, Shaw and Lukaku all had a very positive first season with us. Secondly Maguire was Mou's target (ie we've been scouting the lad for months prior to Ole's interest in him) while James was recommended by Giggs.
Bang on the money, great post.
If all we need is time and patience with a manager to be back at the top, then why does every other club sack managers instead of taking turns winning the league with them all being successful because they all stuck with their managers?
The obvious answer is thats not all we need.
We first need to identify who is a great manager with a good idea of how to adapt the current team and build his own in a productive manner without squandering all our advantages over most of the teams in the country.
What suggests Ole is a great manager who is going to do that? A really good honeymoon period with Mourinho's players, before struggling to get a performance out of the players for a long time with even worse results after making his own changes to the squad.
The obvious answer is thats not all we need.
We first need to identify who is a great manager with a good idea of how to adapt the current team and build his own in a productive manner without squandering all our advantages over most of the teams in the country.
What suggests Ole is a great manager who is going to do that? A really good honeymoon period with Mourinho's players, before struggling to get a performance out of the players for a long time with even worse results after making his own changes to the squad.
Surely that counters your own let's keep replacing the manager argument?
Ole is taking the team through transitional phase, and it's never a popular phase to be in but it has to be done. He didn't went on and throw the check book at problems in hopes of them going away, he saw couple of defenders he wanted to spend money and he bought them. He got rid of some rotten apples and kept the players he wants to see what they can do.
Some more will have to leave but only when he is sure who is fit for the club and who is not is when he will start spending money. That's what Klopp did, that's how it's done if you want to do it right. We're no where near in the stage of team development as Liverpool are at the moment, but we've seen what can be done when some passion is behind it, and it's only our poor luck that made us miss out on a win.
Ole needs our support, don't be fair whether fans, support the manager, finally we see someone using his brain in order to sort the team out and not trying to buy his way out of trouble. It will pay off, but we must give it time.
Some more will have to leave but only when he is sure who is fit for the club and who is not is when he will start spending money. That's what Klopp did, that's how it's done if you want to do it right. We're no where near in the stage of team development as Liverpool are at the moment, but we've seen what can be done when some passion is behind it, and it's only our poor luck that made us miss out on a win.
Ole needs our support, don't be fair whether fans, support the manager, finally we see someone using his brain in order to sort the team out and not trying to buy his way out of trouble. It will pay off, but we must give it time.
We've done nothing like Liverpool.
So the solution to all our problems is to keep a clearly out of his depth manager who happens to play even worse brand of football than the one we sacked a year ago. We might as well raise the white flag then. This view is exactly what is holding our club back, we are not reactive enough and generally deluded. Ole will sooner have us relegated rather than do something useful but according to our fans, it's fine because you know, "Ole's at the wheel", "deserves at least 10 years and £1 billion" or some other nonsense. He must earn that trust and time and what he showed so far in almost a year is laughable. He would have been sacked from any other club months ago but not us, we are "different" and will wait until our season is completely fecked, only then we will sack him. We have stupid board and stupid fans, perfect match.
Let's be honest. If he wasn't a club legend but some random coach from Norway with the exact same CV as Ole, there would be none of these mental gymnastics trying to justify such poor performances. Not exactly surprising that it's coming from posters who think Moyes would have turned it around or that Lingard is a great player.
I'm not going to blame Ole for anything for the Liverpool game but our standards have fallen so much under him that a draw and, what, 32% possession at home is seen as a good result. Jose got slaughtered for playing negative football but in reality Ole's football is no different but without any results whatsoever. He wouldn't survive this form at any other big club. Are they all stupid for firing managers instead of sticking with one if that is all it takes to succeed?
I'm not going to blame Ole for anything for the Liverpool game but our standards have fallen so much under him that a draw and, what, 32% possession at home is seen as a good result. Jose got slaughtered for playing negative football but in reality Ole's football is no different but without any results whatsoever. He wouldn't survive this form at any other big club. Are they all stupid for firing managers instead of sticking with one if that is all it takes to succeed?
We seem to be back to LVG era arguments - the present might be grim but it’s jam tomorrow - combined with a bit of Fergie 86-90 - you need to go backwards before you can go forwards. And, in response to those arguments, none of us can prove a negative about Ole. But at least LVG had some record of building sides (albeit not to the extent claimed by his most devoted disciples). And perhaps, in hindsight, Fergie, even with his stellar achievements at Aberdeen, was a lucky man to survive after signing Leighton, Webb, Wallace and Milne for his rebuild.
With Ole, we are hoping that his experience of Molde and Cardiff (combined with the mythical “ex-player under Fergie” effect to which every other former player seems to be immune) is the basis for rebuilding a fallen giant. Even more so than with the appointment of Moyes, it seems an absurd level of risk and blind faith to take on.
With Ole, we are hoping that his experience of Molde and Cardiff (combined with the mythical “ex-player under Fergie” effect to which every other former player seems to be immune) is the basis for rebuilding a fallen giant. Even more so than with the appointment of Moyes, it seems an absurd level of risk and blind faith to take on.
RAWK level of delusion, love it
Good talk.
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