Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Skåre Willoch]

This observation succinctly sums up the whole issue. It's not about results, it's about feelings.

I'm not going to say that means it's all bullshit, because up to a point I think it's relevant. For example, getting rid of Mourinho was for a lot of people not just, or even primarily, a question of the results he was delivering, but also about getting results in the wrong way. We didn't want a club playing the kind of football he represented. For me at least, it was also about the lack of a sustainable long-term plan - with little to no emphasis on the academy and player development, and too much reliance on a manager who hasn't lasted more than 3 seasons at any top club he's been, despite winning titles.

Expectations for Ole wasn't just getting back to winning. It was also about getting back to brash, confident attacking football, a certain set of values, an emphasis on the academy and on developing young players. Not just winning, but winning in a way we could recognise as the United way. Not unreasonably, he is now being judged on the basis of those expectations.

The thing though is that once your expectations are that infused with emotion, it's hard to bring them under the control of reasonable and realistic expectations. They are hard to even pin down. What we're really yearning for is that feeling of confident certainty we had for so long: The safe knowledge that when a United team goes out to play, there are certain things you can expect to see and certain things you can expect not to see, and generally speaking things will go well. Other teams would adapt to us, not we to them, and we'd still usually beat them. Remember what that felt like? For a long time there's been little hope of that, but now we've seen it in glimpses, and then it gets taken away from us again. And there were are, left back out in the soaking rain of uncertainty like so many wet kittens.

If we manage to take a step back and view it all in perspective though, it seems pretty clear to me that what this suggests is that we're going where we want to be, but we're not there yet. The kind of expectations people have now, they would not have had 12 or 18 months ago, certainly not on any reasonable basis. The anger about how bad we were in the first half against West Ham comes substantially from how good we were in the second. Lots of people are disappointed that we didn't respond to City's cautious approach at OT by revving up and attack them to pieces, as if this was 2003. And they forget that just 6 months ago, everyone took it for granted that when City visited OT, it would be a question of defending desperately and hoping you'd get a goal or two on the counter. As much as we want to be the good old United, we're not. Not yet. Not in consistency of delivery, not in established style of play, not in mental strength. But we are something much more closely resembling that than we've been in a very long time. So, patience.

But all of this also means Ole is really playing with fire by switching between formations and choosing options designed to protect the back four rather than stimulate the front four. There is a noticeable movement in the direction of an emphasis on control rather than attack. You can understand why, given the unstability of the season and the occasional issues with the back four, but that will be seen by many (and rightly so, in my opinion) as a direct threat to the direction of travel. And if there's one thing he can't afford, even less than bad results, it's losing credibility on the direction of travel. For my part I'm prepared to reluctantly accept it as an unfortunate short term necessity up to a point, but I won't deny that every time I see them go out on the pitch with some tinkered-with formation and a lineup designed more for safety than dynamism, my faith in the project lessens a little. Because ultimately, what's going to make this team dominant isn't OGS (or anybody else) cleverly adapting to the specific circumstances of each game, but the creation of a team good enough to impose themselves on any opposition. And I would rather see them try that and sometimes fail, than not try and fail less often.

Probably the best post in the entire thread. Kudos.

 

[rotherham_red]

This observation succinctly sums up the whole issue. It's not about results, it's about feelings.

I'm not going to say that means it's all bullshit, because up to a point I think it's relevant. For example, getting rid of Mourinho was for a lot of people not just, or even primarily, a question of the results he was delivering, but also about getting results in the wrong way. We didn't want a club playing the kind of football he represented. For me at least, it was also about the lack of a sustainable long-term plan - with little to no emphasis on the academy and player development, and too much reliance on a manager who hasn't lasted more than 3 seasons at any top club he's been, despite winning titles.

Expectations for Ole wasn't just getting back to winning. It was also about getting back to brash, confident attacking football, a certain set of values, an emphasis on the academy and on developing young players. Not just winning, but winning in a way we could recognise as the United way. Not unreasonably, he is now being judged on the basis of those expectations.

The thing though is that once your expectations are that infused with emotion, it's hard to bring them under the control of reasonable and realistic expectations. They are hard to even pin down. What we're really yearning for is that feeling of confident certainty we had for so long: The safe knowledge that when a United team goes out to play, there are certain things you can expect to see and certain things you can expect not to see, and generally speaking things will go well. Other teams would adapt to us, not we to them, and we'd still usually beat them. Remember what that felt like? For a long time there's been little hope of that, but now we've seen it in glimpses, and then it gets taken away from us again. And there were are, left back out in the soaking rain of uncertainty like so many wet kittens.

If we manage to take a step back and view it all in perspective though, it seems pretty clear to me that what this suggests is that we're going where we want to be, but we're not there yet. The kind of expectations people have now, they would not have had 12 or 18 months ago, certainly not on any reasonable basis. The anger about how bad we were in the first half against West Ham comes substantially from how good we were in the second. Lots of people are disappointed that we didn't respond to City's cautious approach at OT by revving up and attack them to pieces, as if this was 2003. And they forget that just 6 months ago, everyone took it for granted that when City visited OT, it would be a question of defending desperately and hoping you'd get a goal or two on the counter. As much as we want to be the good old United, we're not. Not yet. Not in consistency of delivery, not in established style of play, not in mental strength. But we are something much more closely resembling that than we've been in a very long time. So, patience.

But all of this also means Ole is really playing with fire by switching between formations and choosing options designed to protect the back four rather than stimulate the front four. There is a noticeable movement in the direction of an emphasis on control rather than attack. You can understand why, given the unstability of the season and the occasional issues with the back four, but that will be seen by many (and rightly so, in my opinion) as a direct threat to the direction of travel. And if there's one thing he can't afford, even less than bad results, it's losing credibility on the direction of travel. For my part I'm prepared to reluctantly accept it as an unfortunate short term necessity up to a point, but I won't deny that every time I see them go out on the pitch with some tinkered-with formation and a lineup designed more for safety than dynamism, my faith in the project lessens a little. Because ultimately, what's going to make this team dominant isn't OGS (or anybody else) cleverly adapting to the specific circumstances of each game, but the creation of a team good enough to impose themselves on any opposition. And I would rather see them try that and sometimes fail, than not try and fail less often.

Spot on.

 

[justsomebloke]

So Liverpool draw with Fulham with an injury hit squad and City draw with WBA (a team we scrapped by) so all of a sudden if we drop points it's to be expected? Come on.

People should stop looking at other teams performances and concentrate on our own. Other than City the league positions are more or less right. Liverpool haven't been firing for obvious reasons and Pep has burnt out his squad losing the likes of Kompany, Silva and Aguero for large chunks of the season. Even Pep has said himself that he only stays at a team for so long because he takes so much out of his team until they can't give anymore and that's what's happening.

Arsenal are where they are because not only don't they have very good players they also an inexperienced manager. Chelsea are where they are because they have a good squad but an inexperienced manager. Tottenham who played us after playing 4 or 5 games in a very short period have a good squad and a good manager which is why they're where they are. Same as Leicester. Southampton have an average squad but a good manager.

So other than City everything is more or less the same. When I hear we'll be lucky to beat SU who have 1 point it just makes me think that excuses are already being led out before hand just in case we don't get a result. If Ole is afraid of burnout then he has a decent enough squad to fully rotate the team. If he chooses not to do so then that's on him.

1. If you just ignore other teams and focus only on us, you very quickly end up comparing performances to the entirely unreal reference point of how you would have liked our performance to be. Particularly in a season where there are obvious special factors impacting on everyone, that is not a good way to stay real.

2. Your statements on Arsenal, Chelsea and the rest are simplistic, to say the least.

3. I'm not sure I've seen anyone argue that we'll be lucky to beat Sheffield United. Clearly, we should do so and it would be extremely disappointing if we don't. But they are good enough that it's not a foregone conclusion, and it wouldn't be the first time this season that a bottom team upset a big club.

4. He does not remotely have a decent enough squad to fully rotate the team. On the contrary, for most positions, using secondary options means a significant drop-off in quality.

5. What does "reasonable expectation" mean for you this season?

 

[troylocker]

So Liverpool draw with Fulham with an injury hit squad and City draw with WBA (a team we scrapped by) so all of a sudden if we drop points it's to be expected? Come on.

People should stop looking at other teams performances and concentrate on our own. Other than City the league positions are more or less right. Liverpool haven't been firing for obvious reasons and Pep has burnt out his squad losing the likes of Kompany, Silva and Aguero for large chunks of the season. Even Pep has said himself that he only stays at a team for so long because he takes so much out of his team until they can't give anymore and that's what's happening.

Arsenal are where they are because not only don't they have very good players they also an inexperienced manager. Chelsea are where they are because they have a good squad but an inexperienced manager. Tottenham who played us after playing 4 or 5 games in a very short period have a good squad and a good manager which is why they're where they are. Same as Leicester. Southampton have an average squad but a good manager.

So other than City everything is more or less the same. When I hear we'll be lucky to beat SU who have 1 point it just makes me think that excuses are already being led out before hand just in case we don't get a result. If Ole is afraid of burnout then he has a decent enough squad to fully rotate the team. If he chooses not to do so then that's on him.

No one is saying we'll have to be lucky to win against SU. A win is the only result anyone will be happy with, but to win it we need to be on our toes for 90 minutes. Resting players before we have a comfortable lead would be a gamble. They have the knife to their thoats and will be all over us with high pressing and though physique like they did last year (3-3). Losing or drawing will be considered a bad result by all in here I think, but saying this should be an easy 3-4 goal away win, while resting players is just setting us up to fail and not realistic expectations.

 

[OleBoiii]

4. He does not remotely have a decent enough squad to fully rotate the team. On the contrary, for most positions, using secondary options means a significant drop-off in quality.

Agreed. Our backups for our most important players:

Maguire -> Tuanzebe(Bailly?)
AWB -> Williams
Fred -> VDB
Bruno -> Pogba
Rashford -> James
Martial -> Cavani

Cavani and VDB are not bad options, but they're not top notch either. Pogba is good on paper, but looks uninterested and is all over the place performance-wise.

 

[Mainoldo]

You think it should have taken Ole as little as 6 months to turn us around into title challengers from the absolute mess Jose left us in?

Nobody on gods earth would have done that. If that's the standard your holding Ole to then you won't be happy whoever the manager is.

Progression is progression, the direction we are headed is the key component here, until such time that we are no longer heading in a positive direction, at which point I'm sure everybody will agree to change Ole.

We finished third last season, progress (I don't care how you dice that up and serve it, 3rd place was progress). We've played 11 games this season, the first 4-5 games we were totally unfit, so it's absolutely all to play for.

If we finish lower than a strong top 4 finish this year I will happily sit here and agree we've gone backwards.

It’s not a debate just how I see it. You see it differently because you back the manager you’ll even make up absurd views such as thinking Jose left us like how he left and joined Chelsea and in your head it’s a fact.

Eitherway there’s plenty for and against. As far as I’m concerned he’s a novice doing an okay job which could have been done quicker and better under a more qualified manager. But to answer your point Inter Milan messed around with average managers for a while dipping in and out of the Champions league qualifications. They get a good manager and in one season they are title contenders.

It’s football not geometry. It doesn’t take 5 years to build success especially when the tools are available like United have.

 

[FatherWolff]

I’m surprised no one has posted West Brum sacked Bilic after drawing with city. Now, there is a club with ambition

 

[FatherWolff]

It’s not a debate just how I see it. You see it differently because you back the manager you’ll even make up absurd views such as thinking Jose left us like how he left and joined Chelsea and in your head it’s a fact.

Eitherway there’s plenty for and against. As far as I’m concerned he’s a novice doing an okay job which could have been done quicker and better under a more qualified manager. But to answer your point Inter Milan messed around with average managers for a while dipping in and out of the Champions league qualifications. They get a good manager and in one season they are title contenders.

It’s football not geometry. It doesn’t take 5 years to build success especially when the tools are available like United have.

Not the entire picture though, is it? Some Italian clubs have begun throwing a bit of money at it, which they haven’t for years. Inter had the structure in place for 40+ years, so probably one of the easiest fixes in football. On the other side they have Ashley Young playing for them ffs. They are a bit of for a while yet!

 

[AshRK]

The one thing I think should keep us in check OR we should just be upset as them all, is Arsenal, chelsea and City fans are quite widely against their managers.

Chelsea fans are totally behind lampard and are not calling for his head or termimg him "failed derby manager". Even chelsea fans here will confirm that @duffer

As for arsenal well their results are beyond shocking and they are 15th so naturally their fans will be pissed.

City fans are not calling for pep's head. Just some grumbling but overall nothing suggests they want him gone.

And you are just being balantly ignorant if you think fans in general are happy with Ole. He has been under pressure since start of last season. Look at this thread itself.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I’m surprised no one has posted West Brum sacked Bilic after drawing with city. Now, there is a club with ambition

So harsh for me.

They were a VAR call from probably beating us, should have got a point from Spurs, just got a point from City. I get they are compact and boring but they had definitely been unlucky

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I’m surprised no one has posted West Brum sacked Bilic after drawing with city. Now, there is a club with ambition

Our league form is still not sackable though.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

It’s not a debate just how I see it. You see it differently because you back the manager you’ll even make up absurd views such as thinking Jose left us like how he left and joined Chelsea and in your head it’s a fact.

Eitherway there’s plenty for and against. As far as I’m concerned he’s a novice doing an okay job which could have been done quicker and better under a more qualified manager. But to answer your point Inter Milan messed around with average managers for a while dipping in and out of the Champions league qualifications. They get a good manager and in one season they are title contenders.

It’s football not geometry. It doesn’t take 5 years to build success especially when the tools are available like United have.

Inter just crashed out of the CL in a group with Shaktar and Mönchengladbach.

 

[Darlington Padgett]

So Liverpool draw with Fulham with an injury hit squad and City draw with WBA (a team we scrapped by) so all of a sudden if we drop points it's to be expected? Come on.

People should stop looking at other teams performances and concentrate on our own. Other than City the league positions are more or less right. Liverpool haven't been firing for obvious reasons and Pep has burnt out his squad losing the likes of Kompany, Silva and Aguero for large chunks of the season. Even Pep has said himself that he only stays at a team for so long because he takes so much out of his team until they can't give anymore and that's what's happening.

Arsenal are where they are because not only don't they have very good players they also an inexperienced manager. Chelsea are where they are because they have a good squad but an inexperienced manager. Tottenham who played us after playing 4 or 5 games in a very short period have a good squad and a good manager which is why they're where they are. Same as Leicester. Southampton have an average squad but a good manager.

So other than City everything is more or less the same. When I hear we'll be lucky to beat SU who have 1 point it just makes me think that excuses are already being led out before hand just in case we don't get a result. If Ole is afraid of burnout then he has a decent enough squad to fully rotate the team. If he chooses not to do so then that's on him.

What's up with the narrative that Liverpool has an injury hit squad? They're missing 1 starter from last season....

 

[MU655]

What are people's expectations for him this season, considering how the season has gone? I have actually revised my expectations to a title challenge because the league has not gone the way I thought. Originally, I thought Liverpool would be clearly the best team in the league (albeit, I did think they would get a lower points total), so that is what I originally built my expectations around. That does not seem to be the case, so they need to be revised.

I feel if Tottenham is able to challenge for the title, there isn't really much of an excuse for us not to do the same. They have spent far less than we have and their manager has had less time in the position, so it sort of undermines those arguments. You also have to consider Southampton, who have gone around quietly becoming a very consistent team since lockdown ended (and even beforehand) and have ranked joint fourth since lockdown. They have become real contenders for top four, which does make you wonder whether merely getting top four is enough for us anymore.

Man City	44​
Tottenham	43​
Liverpool	42​
Manutd	41​
Southampton	41​
Chelsea	40​

Judging by the table above, the title is there to be challenged. It would be a failure not to even put in a challenge.

 

[lysglimt]

It’s not a debate just how I see it. You see it differently because you back the manager you’ll even make up absurd views such as thinking Jose left us like how he left and joined Chelsea and in your head it’s a fact.

Eitherway there’s plenty for and against. As far as I’m concerned he’s a novice doing an okay job which could have been done quicker and better under a more qualified manager. But to answer your point Inter Milan messed around with average managers for a while dipping in and out of the Champions league qualifications. They get a good manager and in one season they are title contenders.

It’s football not geometry. It doesn’t take 5 years to build success especially when the tools are available like United have.

Did you seriously use Inter Milan as an example ? Yes they improved massively - after collecting a team that is so old that within 2 years they have to build an entire new squad:

They have like 13-14 players who are 28-35 years old - so hardly a long-term way of doing things

 

[RUCK4444]

It’s not a debate just how I see it. You see it differently because you back the manager you’ll even make up absurd views such as thinking Jose left us like how he left and joined Chelsea and in your head it’s a fact.

Eitherway there’s plenty for and against. As far as I’m concerned he’s a novice doing an okay job which could have been done quicker and better under a more qualified manager. But to answer your point Inter Milan messed around with average managers for a while dipping in and out of the Champions league qualifications. They get a good manager and in one season they are title contenders.

It’s football not geometry. It doesn’t take 5 years to build success especially when the tools are available like United have.

Oh how easily people forget just how low we were at the end under Jose, it was probably our lowest point since SAF left, absolutely terrible football, Jose throwing players under the bus left and right, awful signings like Lukaku, polar opposite style of football that we want, player confidence was at an all time low. Not to mention the overhaul that Ole had to undertake in what is already the most pressurised job in the league.

Other posters have already said everything I would have regarding your comparison to Inter Milan.

Truth is, there is no fixed timeframe. That doesn't mean we wait forever with Ole whilst going backwards. What it means is that we don't have the luxury of demanding instant success (the previous three managers should have taught us this lesson), so all we can do is get a feel for whether or not we are heading in a generally positive direction. Many can see the positives, many can't.

 

[justsomebloke]

Good post but only United can make people believe a 6-12 month task takes 24 months of baby steps. There’s plenty of examples of teams doing this such thing in a more progressive way so don’t be surprised by the frustration and high expectations. It doesn’t take this long to bake a cake and if it does it’s probably due to lack of experience. Which is what this all comes down too. Not enough experience amongst the project and it’s showing.

Sorry, but if you think you can build a team that can contend for the PL title in 6-12 months with the starting point OGS had, you are simply completely off the mark. We are talking about rebuilding the whole core of the team, as well changing the fundamental style of play and quite a few other things as well. I don't believe you're going to find a single example of a team that has managed that, from a similar starting position. On the other hand, you can easily find examples of the opposite.

 

[b82REZ]

Sorry, but if you think you can build a team that can contend for the PL title in 6-12 months with the starting point OGS had, you are simply completely off the mark. We are talking about rebuilding the whole core of the team, as well changing the fundamental style of play and quite a few other things as well. I don't believe you're going to find a single example of a team that has managed that, from a similar starting position. On the other hand, you can easily find examples of the opposite.

Pep immediately comes to mind, at City as well as Bayern. While it took him longer at City he won the league by the end of his second season. That time involved him moving on a fair amount of the old squad while instilling his philosophy (which many people, myself included thought wouldn't translate to the PL).

We're past that point with Ole and there are still huge questions marks over his ability and what exactly he is trying to achieve with this squad. We often look directionless, and by this point we most certainly should be seeing some green shoots of progression and these lingering questions certainly shouldn't still being asked.

All doubts over the manger are well founded, and while there have been some positives during his tenure, there are far too many issues to see any long term progression under him.

 

[Mainoldo]

Inter just crashed out of the CL in a group with Shaktar and Mönchengladbach.

What’s that got to do with my point about time?

 

[Mainoldo]

Sorry, but if you think you can build a team that can contend for the PL title in 6-12 months with the starting point OGS had, you are simply completely off the mark. We are talking about rebuilding the whole core of the team, as well changing the fundamental style of play and quite a few other things as well. I don't believe you're going to find a single example of a team that has managed that, from a similar starting position. On the other hand, you can easily find examples of the opposite.

How did Conte do it at Chelsea? Pep at City?

 

[sammsky1]

It’s not a debate just how I see it. You see it differently because you back the manager you’ll even make up absurd views such as thinking Jose left us like how he left and joined Chelsea and in your head it’s a fact.

Eitherway there’s plenty for and against. As far as I’m concerned he’s a novice doing an okay job which could have been done quicker and better under a more qualified manager. But to answer your point Inter Milan messed around with average managers for a while dipping in and out of the Champions league qualifications. They get a good manager and in one season they are title contenders.
It’s football not geometry. It doesn’t take 5 years to build success especially when the tools are available like United have.

And yet + - that's around the time it took SAF, Chelsea since buying Zola and Vialli, City post buying Robinho, Klopp at Liverpool

 

[Mainoldo]

And yet + - that's around the time it took SAF, Chelsea since buying Zola and Vialli, City post buying Robinho, Klopp at Liverpool

Oh so all those teams were just doing some big long term building right? I mean Chelsea’s rise was all planned from Hoddle onwards.. You probably think they planned Roman to?

You Ole defenders chat some rubbish.

 

[Polar]

But to answer your point Inter Milan messed around with average managers for a while dipping in and out of the Champions league qualifications. They get a good manager and in one season they are title contenders.

Inter Milan is no more title contender than we are. They’ve had relative easy matches in Serie A and their matches in CL have been fare from impressive. So it’s to early to say Inter Milan is good to go.

 

[passing-wind]

Solskjaers recent comments are strange about the leagues activity. His perspective is that it's somewhat of an excuse for having inconsistent results, however the league being so unstable for me presents an opportunity to actually challenge for the league given the circumstances . There's nothing to say that Ole will get as easy an opportunity to win the league this season compared to any other period heading further forward.

So the question is, does the league having lowered standards mean the expectation for this season has increased for us to attain or fight for the title ? or does it provide a foundation of defence to achieve the bear minimal of top 4 with little to no critique ?

In life there's always the chance of opportunity when problems arise it's who capitalises on it that cements a platform for the future. I personally feel that we should be challenging for the league, because the standard has significantly decreased to the extent that it surely balances the insufficiency of the argument that the team is or isn't good enough. Because if people's excuse is that we don't have the players than what is the explanation for the likes of City, they have a good squad and Pep is a winner, still one of the worlds best coaches.

An inconsistent team will definitely win the league this season that is without doubt therefore the criteria for Ole to be judged surely increases.

 

[georgipep]

Pep immediately comes to mind, at City as well as Bayern. While it took him longer at City he won the league by the end of his second season. That time involved him moving on a fair amount of the old squad while instilling his philosophy (which many people, myself included thought wouldn't translate to the PL).

We're past that point with Ole and there are still huge questions marks over his ability and what exactly he is trying to achieve with this squad. We often look directionless, and by this point we most certainly should be seeing some green shoots of progression and these lingering questions certainly shouldn't still being asked.

All doubts over the manger are well founded, and while there have been some positives during his tenure, there are far too many issues to see any long term progression under him.

Pep took a PL-winning team from Pellegrini at City and a treble (CL+BL+German cup) winning team from Heynckes at Bayern. Can you be more off the mark?

 

[Eriku]

Depends how we quantify better I suppose.

Chelsea are coming off the back of seventeen unbeaten (before the back to back losses) and progress in the CL

Pep surely has credit in the bank for everything he's done at City

Ole can claim neither of the above.

We are accumulating points nicely so why does it feel we are on the edge of a cliff waiting to fall?

If we could just get some kind of consistent control of games, we'd look much more convincing.

Take the Sheffield United game. A game we should mark as a standard 3 pointer, how many of us are 100% confident that's what will happen? I'm not talking about 'anyone can beat anyone though' or 'look at the strange results this season' scenario, I'm purely asking, no matter the result, heading into the game against a team that has one point, we still can't be confident of a win.

The talk surrounding Ole leaving is too big to go away. I feel he is doomed and only a Premier league trophy (won't happen) would save him from the chop... He's a dead man walking

Look at recent history. When did Chelsea and City last lie with a broken back? They’ve both won the league in recent years. Taking over a club like United, which had Fergie running things his way for 27 years, is wildly different. We had a winning machine’s institutional memory gutted by Moyes, then you had LvG and Mourinho building it in their own image, blowing up our wage budget and getting in players who aren’t committed to the cause. Ole had to reset that at the cost of any chance at short term success.

ffs, we’re 5 pts off the top of the table, 2 if we win our game in hand, and people want Ole out and a new reset now. I really don’t get this place.

 

[lex talionis]

Madness to consider sacking Ole right now, if that's still seriously on anyone's mind at the moment, in the middle of the season when we're not that far off the top of the league. There's definitely a case to be made in hindsight for not bringing Ole on, but here we are and Ole has some posters contemplating whether we can make a serious PL trophy run this season. I have my doubts about that, and I have serious doubts as to whether Ole is the right manager for us over the next 2-3 seasons, but we're better for now sticking with him than we are sacking him and going with an interim manager or Pocchetino, who has no trophy haul to speak of.

 

[Mainoldo]

Inter Milan is no more title contender than we are. They’ve had relative easy matches in Serie A and their matches in CL have been fare from impressive. So it’s to early to say Inter Milan is good to go.

You are missing my bloody point. It does not take two years to build momentum to fight for a title like the original posts made out.

Inter done it in a month regardless of if they won it or not. They are on a title chase right now if you ask their fans. If you ask our fans we are halfway through a rebuild with the priority being top 4. So no we are not the same. Why are you telling me about their easy games?

 

[NJM78]

Hope in vain that was one of his last few press conferences. However I see him here next season even if we fail to get top 4.

 

[anant]

Oh so all those teams were just doing some big long term building right? I mean Chelsea’s rise was all planned from Hoddle onwards.. You probably think they planned Roman to?

You Ole defenders chat some rubbish.

A Chelsea side that was already a top 4 side before takeover spent 220m in two seasons to win the PL. Not taking anything away from them as they were a great side, but United were in transition, Arsenal couldnt spend as much due to Emirates being built.

 

[Offsideagain]

This is a weird season. Not one team is streaking away with the PLDaft as it looks, we could be in the top four or five is we beat rock bottom Sheffield United on Thursday. I am not convinced that Ole is tactically sound or if he is getting 100% out of all the players all of the time. With the addition of a world class centre back, defensive midfielder and a winger with pace, the team could go far. Would it with Ole? I am not sure but I’m sure that replacing him would start the whole rebuilding ‘project’ again. I would much rather see Woodward demoted and a DOF appointed to smooth the transfers whilst Woodward carries on making money for the owners.

 

[Mainoldo]

A Chelsea side that was already a top 4 side before takeover spent 220m in two seasons to win the PL. Not taking anything away from them as they were a great side, but United were in transition, Arsenal couldnt spend as much due to Emirates being built.

You tell no lies. Real question is after two years of Ole. Covid and City going through a transition, why after spending so much money can’t we do a Chelsea?

I’ll answer it. We have Ole they had Mourinho.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

What’s that got to do with my point about time?

Because the narrative you created using "time" as the only factor is camouflaging huge flaws with Conte's tenure at Inter.

They get a good manager and suddenly they're title contenders. But at what cost? They didn't win, and they (most likely) won't win it this season either. Fast forward a year from his hiring, and they're out of the CL (in an easier group than us), he is heavily scrutinized by both fans and media for both style and player acquisitions, and the longer (even medium) term looks bleak as feck for Inter.

You seem to be implying that Conte has been a massive success at Inter, but he hasn't. Yes, he got them to 2nd place last season (in a very close race, I'll give him that), but most Inter fans seem to be as optimistic about his tenure as most of us were with José after a while. Yes, he brought them back to where they belong (but not really), but we're all waiting for it to fall apart in spectacular fashion.

Buy experienced "dinosaurs" to fit his system, have some semi-success (but nothing to really show for), suffer the inevitable breakdown, leave a total mess behind that will take a lot of money and time to fix. José and Conte aren't too different nowadays.

They might both prove me wrong and win the PL/Serie A this season. I'll be surprised if they do, but they still might. They have built defensively solid teams, with players perfect for their system/philosophy. But if they both end up with 2nd places and lost finals, the cleanup afterwards is going to be tough without Roman's money.

I for sure hope we don't take that route when/if Ole goes.

 

[Widow]

ffs, we’re 5 pts off the top of the table, 2 if we win our game in hand, and people want Ole out and a new reset now. I really don’t get this place.

Chelsea is hardly a team with a broken back. Pep is safe in his seat, he is arguably the best manager in the world.

You can 'ffs' all you like but people will form their own opinion and when this differs from yours, let it be.

It grates on me to see personal attacks because some want him in and some want him gone but everyone claims to have better knowledge than the other.

 

[anant]

You tell no lies. Real question is after two years of Ole. Covid and City going through a transition, why after spending so much money can’t we do a Chelsea?

I’ll answer it. We have Ole they had Mourinho.

Because maybe COVID is there for everyone. Spending of every club has been impacted.
Add to that It was a 2 team league then and it was easier to break through the barrier. Now, with the money in the league, there are 3-4 teams competing for the title, 6-8 teams fighting for top 4 and 10 teams competing for European football

 

[justsomebloke]

You are missing my bloody point. It does not take two years to build momentum to fight for a title like the original posts made out.

Inter done it in a month regardless of if they won it or not. They are on a title chase right now if you ask their fans. If you ask our fans we are halfway through a rebuild with the priority being top 4. So no we are not the same. Why are you telling me about their easy games?

Sorry, but this discussion is now at a point where there's not much more to do than note that you're insisting on making a judgment based on an understanding of how reality works that is, as far as I can understand, just completely wrong, and for which you're not really able to offer any serious arguments.

 

[Eriku]

Chelsea is hardly a team with a broken back. Pep is safe in his seat, he is arguably the best manager in the world.

You can 'ffs' all you like but people will form their own opinion and when this differs from yours, let it be.

It grates on me to see personal attacks because some want him in and some want him gone but everyone claims to have better knowledge than the other.

Personal attacks? If anything I said constitutes a personal attack to you, then I think you should look it up.

And my rhetorical question about Chelsea or City’s broken backs were meant to highlight that Ole’s starting from a way harder position, with a United that’s fallen from grace but still retained the pressure in the media that we’re supposed to be up there with the elite teams. And yet people want Ole sacked when we’re having a better PL season than them so far.

 

[Polar]

I suppose the club itself is best qualified to assess the manager. What do really we, the fans, know. It’s funny to discuss Ole in or out, but in reality we are the most clueless of everyone connected to the club.

It’s quite easy. As long as Ole stay “Ole in people” are right, and if Ole gets fired “Ole out people are right.

 

[Widow]

Personal attacks? If anything I said constitutes a personal attack to you, then I think you should look it up.

Wasn't aimed directly at you, just a general observation.

And my rhetorical question about Chelsea or City’s broken backs were meant to highlight that Ole’s starting from a way harder position, with a United that’s fallen from grace but still retained the pressure in the media that we’re supposed to be up there with the elite teams.

That's the problem with text, rhetorical questions can be missed construed.

Time is an issue. This is Ole's third season, second full and you would have hoped to see a 'philosophy' (token word) by now. He has done good work in dumping a lot of the deadwood but that surely is the easiest part of the rejuvenation of the Club.
His transfers, Bruno aside, have been hit and miss. Results have been hit and miss. If he is given more time can he move us on to the next level?

It's irrelevant anyway, there's no chance the board will sack him yet, quite right too. As you alluded to earlier, the League is looking good if we take the points tomorrow and the game in hand we'll be right among the contenders.

Personally, I have doubts that Ole is good enough to make us consistent winners although I do like the guy.

 

[b82REZ]

Pep took a PL-winning team from Pellegrini at City and a treble (CL+BL+German cup) winning team from Heynckes at Bayern. Can you be more off the mark?

It had been at least a year since Pellgrini won the title. The season before Pep joined they narrowly got top 4, beating us on GD. So no not wide of the mark, at all.

He completely changed the way Bayern played, again, something that apparently requires multiple seasons to implement.