Would you be okay with state or state-backed ownership?

[Bert_]

Bloody 'ell I'm more entitled than eating tv-dinners!!

I simply want the club debt free and the Glazers gone. The only option on the table for that appears to be the Qatar bid.

Once we have them, we have them forever though. If the Qataris run us into the ground or turn us into a complete circus a la PSG, what can we do? No amount of money, protests, boycotts will be enough to get them to feck off. We are their property for generations at least. And considering they have no intention of making any money out of us, then we are doomed to be nothing more than a marketing tool. One of the biggest clubs in the world reduced to nothing more than advert for a nation.

 

[fergieisold]

Once we have them, we have them forever though. If the Qataris run us into the ground or turn us into a complete circus a la PSG, what can we do? No amount of money, protests, boycotts will be enough to get them to feck off. We are their property for generations at least. And considering they have no intention of making any money out of us, then we are doomed to be nothing more than a marketing tool. One of the biggest clubs in the world reduced to nothing more than advert for a nation.

Yeh, I get it's a risk in terms of the circus - I think it's less of a risk they run us into the ground.

Is there any analysis been done on the influence of 'sports washing' it seems dubious in my head that it helps a countries image...but clearly they think there is some advantage to this.

So far their attempt to buy us has ended up with me googling their human rights abuses. Not sure that's a great advert.

 

[donrogersmoustache]

Liverpool built a great team. Almost a once in a lifetime team. Everything came together. They managed to get a top manager and nearly every player bought was bang on. But at the end of the day won the league once in last few years. In fact over the last ten years only Leicester did it once. Liverpool once and then the other team was Chelsea - another team funded by a corrupt barbaric country.

So to compete with City you would have to do even better than the scousers did. But its even worse because now there is Newcastle. And will it stop there? How many other teams will Saudi/ Quatar take over? If its not United it will be someone else.

The idea that United can win without Oil money is far fetched. Maybe we could get it once. But over the next 10 years it will be City/City/Newcastle/City/Newcastle/ Other Saudi team etc.

So the question is. Join the corruption and have oil money and win stuff or fall away and be a fallen giant like AC Milan

Liverpool are also sponsored by a company found guilty of money laundering and their fans seem happy to have Standard Chartered emblazoned on their shirts

 

[RedDF]

It shouldn’t really matter as long as they’re acting in the best interest of the club.

 

[sizzling sausages]

So far their attempt to buy us has ended up with me googling their human rights abuses. Not sure that's a great advert.

And yet you want them as our owners - isn't that the exact aim of sportswashing? People looking past their crimes because they want their money?

 

[fergieisold]

And yet you want them as our owners - isn't that the exact aim of sportswashing? People looking past their crimes because they want their money?

I'm not sure I even like the term. what does it even mean? What measurable gain does a state like Qatar or other get out of things like the World Cup and buying Manchester United? Seems to me all it does is bring more attention to their human rights record.

 

[redsunited]

Yes, when already in PL and CL has state backed ownership, it is not an argument for me.

Ideally any ownership which clears the debt, won’t take money out of the club, instead invests it in stadium and world class facilities. If only state backed ownership could do all of it as the leeches priced out any decent buyer as they can only do part of it and weigh the club down, then state ownership is most welcome.

I don’t believe in sports washing as imo it is for first world tree huggers. Just because UAE city had won PL, they don’t become squeaky clean than Qatar or Saudi Arabia or Sudan. Russia didn’t sports wash by buying Chelsea. Qatar or Kingdom of Wadia wont get any better due to sports washing by buying United.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

Yes, when already in PL and CL has state backed ownership, it is not an argument for me.

Ideally any ownership which clears the debt, won’t take money out of the club, instead invests it in stadium and world class facilities. If only state backed ownership could do all of it as the leeches priced out any decent buyer as they can only do part of it and weigh the club down, then state ownership is most welcome.

I don’t believe in sports washing as imo it is for first world tree huggers. Just because UAE city had won PL, they don’t become squeaky clean than Qatar or Saudi Arabia or Sudan. Russia didn’t sports wash by buying Chelsea. Qatar or Kingdom of Wadia wont get any better due to sports washing by buying United.

Yeah but they don't need to "get better" in the eyes of you or me. They don't give two shits about that.
Sportswashing = the opportunities they get as a result of owning a British football club. The connections they make. the people they have in their pockets because of it. they private meetings they'll have with people they would have found it harder to connect with otherwise...

Public opinion has no value to them.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

And yet you want them as our owners - isn't that the exact aim of sportswashing? People looking past their crimes because they want their money?

Two genuine questions.

1. Do you think Utd being owned by a consortium of prominent Qataris will lessen or increase global scrutiny on Qatar’s Human Rights?

2. Do you think Qatar’s Human Rights / equality are more likely or less likely to improve if they are invested in mega famous global businesses that are linked strongly with social equality like Man Utd?

Or do you think that instead, people will talk less about it and apply less pressure to Qatar to improve in these areas? Genuine questions.

Also, if Qatar’s stance was ‘we want to oppress more and have it overlooked by the World’, why get involved with a huge club that is openly geared around equality, rainbow laces, no racism etc? It seems a lot of bother and I’m not sure the outcome adds up.

It seems like if I was a gay person in Qatar, or just a liberally minded person in Qatar, I’d actively want my country to be involved in things like this as a way of slowly exposing people to more progressive ways of thinking.

Surely that’s how change is gonna slowly happen?

 

[redsunited]

Yeah but they don't need to "get better" in the eyes of you or me. They don't give two shits about that.
Sportswashing = the opportunities they get as a result of owning a British football club. The connections they make. the people they have in their pockets because of it. they private meetings they'll have with people they would have found it harder to connect with otherwise...

Public opinion has no value to them.

Don’t you think they already have that connections by being a big investor in all other sectors. Even the company I work for in London, they have an equity in it. For them Owning a Football club is more like a rich man’s horse in a race.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

Two genuine questions.

1. Do you think Utd being owned by a consortium of prominent Qataris will lessen or increase global scrutiny on Qatar’s Human Rights?

2. Do you think Qatar’s Human Rights / equality are more likely or less likely to improve if they are invested in mega famous global businesses that are linked strongly with social equality like Man Utd?

Or do you think that instead, people will talk less about it and apply less pressure to Qatar to improve in these areas? Genuine questions.

Also, if Qatar’s stance was ‘we want to oppress more and have it overlooked by the World’, why get involved with a huge club that is openly geared around equality, rainbow laces, no racism etc? It seems a lot of bother and I’m not sure the outcome adds up.

It seems like if I was a gay person in Qatar, or just a liberally minded person in Qatar, I’d actively want my country to be involved in things like this as a way of slowly exposing people to more progressive ways of thinking.

Surely that’s how change is gonna slowly happen?

Do you think that human rights improved in the United Arab Emirates since they bought City?
I don't think it did one bit. Most football fans probably think that City is owned by a country called Abu Dhabi.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Yeah but they don't need to "get better" in the eyes of you or me. They don't give two shits about that.
Sportswashing = the opportunities they get as a result of owning a British football club. The connections they make. the people they have in their pockets because of it. they private meetings they'll have with people they would have found it harder to connect with otherwise...

Public opinion has no value to them.

But they are global royalty and already own so much of England…

They own Claridges, they were educated with English Royals ffs, IN ENGLAND. And have been for generations.

I just don’t see what these ‘meetings’ or ‘opportunities’ are they’d get access to by owning a PL club that they couldn’t already have access to, easily.

 

[Wumminator]

People keep asking what is the benefit of sportswashing.

They are ignoring the fact that City’s owners are currently rinsing the city of Manchester after receiving incredible tax breaks and numerous dodgy deals; with former council members who financed these dodgy deals sitting on City’s books.

https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/managem...ty-management-school-and-university-sheffield

They are literally ruining Manchester.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

People keep asking what is the benefit of sportswashing.

They are ignoring the fact that City’s owners are currently rinsing the city of Manchester after receiving incredible tax breaks and numerous dodgy deals; with former council members who financed these dodgy deals sitting on City’s books.

https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/managem...ty-management-school-and-university-sheffield

They are literally ruining Manchester.

@Rhyme Animal I was also going to bring that up...
since, as you say, they already have access to many UK politicians and whatnot...

Why would City's owners care for these real-estate deals? they don't need money that's for sure.

But people who have such levels of power will forever seek for ways to expand it even further.

 

[Fridge chutney]

People keep asking what is the benefit of sportswashing.

They are ignoring the fact that City’s owners are currently rinsing the city of Manchester after receiving incredible tax breaks and numerous dodgy deals; with former council members who financed these dodgy deals sitting on City’s books.

https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/managem...ty-management-school-and-university-sheffield

They are literally ruining Manchester.

Thank you for posting this. Really great research. Rather than putting my head in the sand, i will stop supporting our beautiful club if it becomes state owned like City. And that makes me sad, but it is the right thing to do in my opinion.

 

[jm99]

People keep asking what is the benefit of sportswashing.

They are ignoring the fact that City’s owners are currently rinsing the city of Manchester after receiving incredible tax breaks and numerous dodgy deals; with former council members who financed these dodgy deals sitting on City’s books.

https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/managem...ty-management-school-and-university-sheffield

They are literally ruining Manchester.

So because some arabs have done this, all Arabs would? Or is that not the point you're making. City's owners have cheated, they've broken the rules and they've paid managers off the books. If Qatar do that with us I'll be disappointed, but you seem to be suggesting that if one set of Arab owners do this they all will. I'm pretty sure there's been rich British people who've done bad shit, but I don't think that reflects on ratcliffe

 

[Wumminator]

So because some arabs have done this, all Arabs would? Or is that not the point you're making.

No no. That is exactly the point I’m making. These countries owning football clubs will act in a similar way.

 

[Lightbringer]

Would you guys be OK with if everyone had to dress with Sheikh clothing at Old Trafford?

 

[jm99]

No no. That is exactly the point I’m making. These countries owning football clubs will act in a similar way.

Why? Would you be making the same point if Norway used their wealth fund to buy a Club? Or is there something about Qatar and UAE that makes you think they'll act in identical ways beyond lazily stereotyping an entire region based on the actions of one of the many countries from that region?

 

[Wumminator]

Why? Would you be making the same point if Norway used their wealth fund to buy a Club? Or is there something about Qatar and UAE that makes you think they'll act in identical ways beyond lazily stereotyping an entire region based on the actions of one of the many countries from that region?

Dunno, why did you lump them all together in this post here?

. That's why I feel any bid other than Middle Eastern is likely to long term want to see a return

 

[Fridge chutney]

So because some arabs have done this, all Arabs would

He's not referring to arabs. He's referring to autocratic, human rights-abusing regimes.

 

[jm99]

Dunno, why did you lump them all together in this post here?

Well because you can look at the strategy of various wealth funds, and they don't look for an immediate return on investment, psg with Qatar are an example, same as city and Newcastle. That isn't stereotyping. You're looking at one group, which has cheated, has been shown to have cheated etc and extrapolating that to all of them

 

[Wumminator]

Well because you can look at the strategy of various wealth funds, and they don't look for an immediate return on investment, psg with Qatar are an example, same as city and Newcastle. That isn't stereotyping. You're looking at one group, which has cheated, has been shown to have cheated etc and extrapolating that to all of them

You what mate? You saying only Middle Eastern owners are happy to waste money? Are you genuinely in here trying to say all Arabs are happy to waste money and suggesting they’re not able to be financially wise? Dodgy ground IMO.

 

[jm99]

You what mate? You saying only Middle Eastern owners are happy to waste money? Are you genuinely in here trying to say all Arabs are happy to waste money and suggesting they’re not able to be financially wise? Dodgy ground IMO.

I'm saying that sovereign wealth funds or state backed bids which so far have only been middle Eastern, but you're right I should have said state backed rather than middle Eastern, though in the context of the United takeover, I don't believe any non middle Eastern countries were looking to acquire a football club at this time

 

[Wumminator]

I'm saying that sovereign wealth funds or state backed bids which so far have only been middle Eastern, but you're right I should have said state backed rather than middle Eastern, though in the context of the United takeover, I don't believe any non middle Eastern countries were looking to acquire a football club at this time

.

While older people in these countries likely have entrenched views regarding lgbt people or migrants, younger people who grow up in a country thats closer to more progressive countries are likely to be more progressive. Its distasteful yes, but in the long term the sportswashing stuff is likely to improve things for the oppressed in these countries, it wouldn't work if it didn't

What about this quote mate where you lumped in all older Arabs together as homophobic and having negative views regarding migrants? Why did you lump them together here?

Why do you have a history of lumping groups together - literally this year - but then when the same groups are lumped together now it is because they are Arabs and all being stereotyped?

What has possibly changed for you?

 

[LawCharltonBest]

My biggest fear about the Qatar potential ownership is that if they run the club poorly, once again we will have a voice that won’t be heard. It’ll be 100% owned and the owner will likely stay in Qatar deaf to it

Whereas with Ineos, I feel the fans voice will be heard more and reacted to more when it’s needed

All based on assumption of course

 

[jm99]

What about this quote mate where you lumped in all older Arabs together as homophobic and having negative views regarding migrants? Why did you lump them together here?

Why do you have a history of lumping groups together - literally this year - but then when the same groups are lumped together now it is because they are Arabs and all being stereotyped?

What has possibly changed for you?

First off,glad to see the classic wumminator look through post history and use ad hominem attacks haven't changed. Second, I'm talking generally, it's not limited to arabs in every culture older people are more religious, and more Conservative and younger people less so. This isn't true of everyone but is in general. You on the other hand are using the behaviour of one Arab to generalise every single person from that region

 

[Wumminator]

First off,glad to see the classic wumminator look through post history and use ad hominem attacks haven't changed. Second, I'm talking generally, it's not limited to arabs in every culture older people are more religious, and more Conservative and younger people less so. This isn't true of everyone but is in general. You on the other hand are using the behaviour of one Arab to generalise every single person from that region

Why did you say “in these countries”


It’s absolutely not ad hominen it’s the absolute fecking point. You come in here “oh why are you linking Arabs together” basically trying to accuse others of racism. When you know full fecking well it’s nothing to do with racism - Newcastle, City, PSG have all inflated and cheated their way to higher positions in football (try and deny you’ve ever said this btw - because you’ve got posts there as well) and it’s obvious Qatar would look to do the same. They literally did it at PSG. As you have acknowledged before.

This whole “oh you’re lumping Middle Eastern rulers together - just because they’re a different colour teehee don’t argue else you’re a racist” is the most offensive and disingenuous thing I’ve ever seen. You were doing the same (have been doing the same consistently). To wield accusations of racism around when you KNOW exactly what is meant is shameful and you need to wind it in. Absolutely pathetic and so incredibly LOW to try and silence people through that.

Listen - the Qatar ruling class are scum. Not because they’re Asian. Not because of their skin colour. Because they hold down women and LGBT+ people and take part in obscene practices that are literally ruining Manchester. You KNOW why Saudi Arabia and Qatar and UAE are linked and you know that it is not their skin colour.

 

[jm99]

Why did you say “in these countries”


It’s absolutely not ad hominen it’s the absolute fecking point. You come in here “oh why are you linking Arabs together” basically trying to accuse others of racism. When you know full fecking well it’s nothing to do with racism - Newcastle, City, PSG have all inflated and cheated their way to higher positions in football (try and deny you’ve ever said this btw - because you’ve got posts there as well) and it’s obvious Qatar would look to do the same. They literally did it at PSG. As you have acknowledged before.

This whole “oh you’re lumping Middle Eastern rulers together - just because they’re a different colour teehee don’t argue else you’re a racist” is the most offensive and disingenuous thing I’ve ever seen. You were doing the same (have been doing the same consistently). To wield accusations of racism around when you KNOW exactly what is meant is shameful and you need to wind it in. Absolutely pathetic and so incredibly LOW to try and silence people through that.

Listen - the Qatar ruling class are scum. Not because they’re Asian. Not because of their skin colour. Because they hold down women and LGBT+ people and take part in obscene practices that are literally ruining Manchester. You KNOW why Saudi Arabia and Qatar and UAE are linked and you know that it is not their skin colour.

They haven't done the same as city at psg. As far as I'm aware city are the only ones who've cheated ie/ actually broken the rules. I have no problem saying that teams who've cheated are cheaters. I don't think it's fair to use things City's owners have done to attack other owners from the same region. What practices are Qatar taking part it that ruin Manchester, because again, what you linked was something City's owners have done. I don't recall ever having posted accusing Newcastle or psg of cheating, maybe I did, but I really don't remember when I would have said that or why

Tbh though it is kinda weird for someone who responded to a thread titled "is there such a thing as an ethical billionaire" with "no, this is a black and white issue for me" to have been twerking for brexit Jim for nearly 2000 pages

 

[colombianmancunian]

I will be. In fact I’ll prefer to be state owned to be owned by leeches who have run the club into shambles.

 

[Wumminator]

They haven't done the same as city at psg. As far as I'm aware city are the only ones who've cheated ie/ actually broken the rules. I have no problem saying that teams who've cheated are cheaters. I don't think it's fair to use things City's owners have done to attack other owners from the same region. What practices are Qatar taking part it that ruin Manchester, because again, what you linked was something City's owners have done. I don't recall ever having posted accusing Newcastle or psg of cheating, maybe I did, but I really don't remember when I would have said that or why

Tbh though it is kinda weird for someone who responded to a thread titled "is there such a thing as an ethical billionaire" with "no, this is a black and white issue for me" to have been twerking for brexit Jim for nearly 2000 pages

I don’t like Jim Ratcliffe at all - he’s probably a massive massive prick.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

I like Jim Ratcliffe - he probably has a massive massive prick.

Ok, ok we get it.

 

[Withnail]

Ok, ok we get it.

Lame.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Lame.

Ah lighten up ffs.

You want this to go on indefinitely if Jassim wins? For this place to just become a toxic dump?

A bit of humour is much needed in here, it’s a better direction to go in than the alternative.

Press ignore if it bothers you.

 

[Wumminator]

Ah lighten up ffs.

You want this to go on indefinitely if Jassim wins?

I mean that is the reality it will go on and on yes. It’ll be all that is ever mentioned. No one wants that though no.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

I mean that is the reality it will go on and on yes. It’ll be all that is ever mentioned. No one wants that though no.

Then we’ll have to work as a fanbase to move past it won’t we.

If Ratcliffe wins, I will hope for the best and give him a fair chance. I won’t be lurking in every Utd topic shouting ‘Brexit!’ and ‘Greenwashing!’ infinitely.

 

[Pexbo]

If Qatar do win the auction, I hope United fans can keep the same energy of protest and activism they have shown in the face of the Glazer ownership these last 18 years. I think it would be a really powerful thing to have a club freshly bought out by what is clearly state owners only to be faced with a tidal wave of protests keeping the human rights offences the Qataris are guilty of at the forefront of the media.

That comes from someone who thinks INEOS ownership would be a nail in the coffin of any ambition this club has of ever being relevant again.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

If Qatar do win the auction, I hope United fans can keep the same energy of protest and activism they have shown in the face of the Glazer ownership these last 18 years. I think it would be a really powerful thing to have a club freshly bought out by what is clearly state owners only to be faced with a tidal wave of protests keeping the human rights offences the Qataris are guilty of at the forefront of the media.

That comes from someone who thinks INEOS ownership would be a nail in the coffin of any ambition this club has of ever being relevant again.

I agree. Huge, permanent, highly visible banners voicing LGBTQ support is a must for starters.

 

[Withnail]

Ah lighten up ffs.

You want this to go on indefinitely if Jassim wins? For this place to just become a toxic dump?

A bit of humour is much needed in here, it’s a better direction to go in than the alternative.

Press ignore if it bothers you.

I wouldn't find that joke particularly funny in any thread really. If it was a genuine attempt to lighten the mood then fair enough.

I don't think it really makes any odds who wins out. I think it'll be fairly toxic anyway. All of the arguments will continue regardless. If it's Jassim you won't see much of me posting about United tbh.

 

[Fridge chutney]

I wouldn't find that joke particularly funny in any thread really. If it was a genuine attempt to lighten the mood then fair enough.

I don't think it really makes any odds who wins out. I think it'll be fairly toxic anyway. All of the arguments will continue regardless. If it's Jassim you won't see much of me posting about United tbh.

I will. I will continue to voice opposition to sportswashing and state ownership (and eventually, cheating, if applicable) if Qatar buys us. I won't support United but i'd be happy to see a non-state club win trophies.