Would you be okay with state or state-backed ownership?

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Fridge chutney said:
I will. I will continue to voice opposition to sportswashing and state ownership (and eventually, cheating, if applicable) if Qatar buys us. I won't support United but i'd be happy to see a non-state club win trophies.
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So you’ll essentially turn into an oppo WUM?

And presumably, since you’ll no longer follow Utd, you’ll also invest equal amounts of your time ‘voicing opposition to sportswashing and state ownership (and eventually, cheating, if applicable)’ on City, Newcastle, PSG etc forums as well since this is something that bothers you so much?

It’s not just simply a case that you didn’t get what you want at Utd and are thus throwing your toys out of the pram…?
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Two genuine questions.

1. Do you think Utd being owned by a consortium of prominent Qataris will lessen or increase global scrutiny on Qatar’s Human Rights?

2. Do you think Qatar’s Human Rights / equality are more likely or less likely to improve if they are invested in mega famous global businesses that are linked strongly with social equality like Man Utd?

Or do you think that instead, people will talk less about it and apply less pressure to Qatar to improve in these areas? Genuine questions.

Also, if Qatar’s stance was ‘we want to oppress more and have it overlooked by the World’, why get involved with a huge club that is openly geared around equality, rainbow laces, no racism etc? It seems a lot of bother and I’m not sure the outcome adds up.

It seems like if I was a gay person in Qatar, or just a liberally minded person in Qatar, I’d actively want my country to be involved in things like this as a way of slowly exposing people to more progressive ways of thinking.

Surely that’s how change is gonna slowly happen?
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City’s owners are literally cosying up to Russia. Football is so minuscule in comparison to the wealth and power of a country and these countries don’t give a Feck, they are so above any kind of reproach, they are minted, it’s genuinely pathetic to see this argument ‘oh well if we let them buy a club, we’ll be able to influence them’.

If anything it just desensitises the fan base because we will see a lot of articles (like the recent Newcastle one) and already everyone is joking about it, knows nothing will happen and it quickly becomes normal.

Case in point City cheated to a level that actually hard to fathom if you look at the number of charges but it’s old news, people already don’t care that much outside of this forum given we are local rivals, media can only write so many articles without there being any kind of punishment. In the meantime all you see is positives and their owners can act as they do without punishment. It’s the boy who cried wolf.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
So you’ll essentially turn into an oppo WUM?

And presumably, since you’ll no longer follow Utd, you’ll also invest equal amounts of your time ‘voicing opposition to sportswashing and state ownership (and eventually, cheating, if applicable)’ on City, Newcastle, PSG etc forums as well since this is something that bothers you so much?

It’s not just simply a case that you didn’t get what you want at Utd and are thus throwing your toys out of the pram…?
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Throwing his toys out of his pram?

Many people will believe the best way to support the club is to do anything that is possible to get rid of Qatari ownership. Highlighting any humans rights abuse and cheating by the owners is not throwing his toys out but supporting his club.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
So you’ll essentially turn into an oppo WUM?

And presumably, since you’ll no longer follow Utd, you’ll also invest equal amounts of your time ‘voicing opposition to sportswashing and state ownership (and eventually, cheating, if applicable)’ on City, Newcastle, PSG etc forums as well since this is something that bothers you so much?

It’s not just simply a case that you didn’t get what you want at Utd and are thus throwing your toys out of the pram…?
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I find it interesting that you classify someone who is against sportswashing and state ownership as a "wum". I have been consistent in my views against state ownership model and i won't change what i think just because my own club becomes something i cannot accept personally.

I won't bother addressing the bolded because that is a disingenuous false equivalence and i think you know exactly why.
 
Fridge chutney said:
I find it interesting that you classify someone who is against sportswashing and state ownership as a "wum". I have been consistent in my views against state ownership model and i won't change what i think just because my own club becomes something i cannot accept personally.

I won't bother addressing the bolded because that is a disingenuous false equivalence and i think you know exactly why.
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I don’t classify someone who’s against Sportswashing as a WUM.

I consider what you described as an oppo WUM - someone who doesn’t support Utd, wants other teams to win trophies and posts on here criticising Utd all the time.

Also, you stated that you’d support ‘non state owned clubs winning trophies’ - that’s basically just Liverpool mate, isn’t it?

It sounds like you’re tying yourself up in knots over this, and the stuff you’re proposing doing seems to me like throwing your toys out of the pram.

If your problem is Sportswashing, then no, it’s not a false equivalent to suggest you’ll presumably also be all over City, Newcastle, PSG forums doing the same. Why would you limit your focus on solely Utd?

If you’re going to dedicate your time to criticising the owners of Utd for Sportswashing, but you no longer follow Utd, I don’t see why you won’t also be doing it to the clubs who are actually proven state owned.

Unless, as I said, it’s not actually solely about that at all, and is also about you not getting what you want.
 
I find it strange that people are willing to stop supporting the club even though we have no control over the ownership. Owners come and go, but the club belongs to the fans and we shouldn't allow anyone to take that away from us.. We also generate enough money to be competitive without the need for oil money, so even if we're bought by the Qataris, we could still remain self sufficient. Admittedly if they start throwing a lot of money at the club winning won't feel the same.

I believe there's a world where you can support the club, and still voice your opinion against any unacceptable practices by the owners, but we shouldn't allow anyone to take the club away from us imo.
 
Fridge chutney said:
I will. I will continue to voice opposition to sportswashing and state ownership (and eventually, cheating, if applicable) if Qatar buys us. I won't support United but i'd be happy to see a non-state club win trophies.
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In the last 5-7 years, did you always prefer Liverpool to win the League when they're neck to neck with state-owned Man City?
 
Someone said:
I find it strange that people are willing to stop supporting the club even though we have no control over the ownership. Owners come and go, but the club belongs to the fans and we shouldn't allow anyone to take that away from us.. We also generate enough money to be competitive without the need for oil money, so even if we're bought by the Qataris, we could still remain self sufficient. Admittedly if they start throwing a lot of money at the club winning won't feel the same.

I believe there's a world where you can support the club, and still voice your opinion against any unacceptable practices by the owners, but we shouldn't allow anyone to take the club away from us imo.
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Is there nobody you could think of buying the club that will cause you to drop your support? What if Putin or Trump or Al Qaeda bought the club? I have to think, for most people, there is a line there. The question is, where do most people draw it?
On principle, I agree with you, United should belong to the supporters, but at some point, the owners matter.
 
We just lacked a structure. To be fair to glazers, they spent money on transfers. But due to bad scouts, bad coaches, no structure.....we were spending and giving heavy contracts to average players. Buying wrong players and not even having an identity of play. Whether it's ineos or Qatar, we will rise because we seems to now have a very good coach who knows what he wants. But the debts have to be paid as quickly as possible so that we can be limitless in our transfers. And the Qatari bid guarantees that
 
MarylandMUFan said:
Damn, good point. As someone who has voiced my concern, similar to Fridge, I have to admit, I rooted for City over Liverpool. Certainly food for thought.
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That animal instinct sometimes gets the worst out of even strong men.

ANother one. If you're given an authentic signed Kevin de Bruyne shirt, would you reject it? Knowing he's the star and face of a team, where the whole state-owned Man City is built upon.
 
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MarylandMUFan said:
Is there nobody you could think of buying the club that will cause you to drop your support? What if Putin or Trump or Al Qaeda bought the club? I have to think, for most people, there is a line there. The question is, where do most people draw it?
On principle, I agree with you, United should belong to the supporters, but at some point, the owners matter.
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It's not about how bad an owner could get, it's about how unfair it is to give up the club I've supported my whole life over a decision I can't control. I don't think the club needs oil money to be competitive, and our success in the future won't make me fall in love with Qatar. Only thing I can control is to not allow myself to be impacted by any Sportswashing attempts. We could always voice our concerns about our new owners.
 
Someone said:
It's not about how bad an owner could get, it's about how unfair it is to give up the club I've supported my whole life over a decision I can't control. I don't think the club needs oil money to be competitive, and our success in the future won't make me fall in love with Qatar. Only thing I can control is to not allow myself to be impacted by any Sportswashing attempts. We could always voice our concerns about our new owners.
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We don't know if your points are right ones, but I agreed with all these. Although it's probably harder than we think, to NOT being sportwashinged(?) if United is back as top dog under Qatar; especially kids that will grow up watching United and Qatar as inseparable .
 
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Pexbo said:
If Qatar do win the auction, I hope United fans can keep the same energy of protest and activism they have shown in the face of the Glazer ownership these last 18 years. I think it would be a really powerful thing to have a club freshly bought out by what is clearly state owners only to be faced with a tidal wave of protests keeping the human rights offences the Qataris are guilty of at the forefront of the media.

That comes from someone who thinks INEOS ownership would be a nail in the coffin of any ambition this club has of ever being relevant again.
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Cmon lad, anti glazer protests have been far often than not a damb squib. I doubt the sheikh is going to be worried about a few top reds. Not when they've got mbappe hairing down the wing..
 
Isotope said:
That animal instinct sometimes gets the worst out of even strong men.

ANother one. If you're given an authentic signed Kevin de Bruyne shirt, would you reject it? Knowing he's the star and face of a team, where the whole state-owned Man City is built upon.
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That would be easy, I could pass on any memorabilia, even United stuff. To take your point further, if City offered me a job for say £300,000 a year to track the mood of the supports online, would I take it? I have to admit, there is a figure that would get me to say yes.
 
Isotope said:
That animal instinct sometimes gets the worst out of even strong men.

ANother one. If you're given an authentic signed Kevin de Bruyne shirt, would you reject it? Knowing he's the star and face of a team, where the whole state-owned Man City is built upon.
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Not sure that's really the best example. Why would any fan want the signed shirt of rival player?
 
MarylandMUFan said:
That would be easy, I could pass on any memorabilia, even United stuff. To take your point further, if City offered me a job for say £300,000 a year to track the mood of the supports online, would I take it? I have to admit, there is a figure that would get me to say yes.
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Yeah, me too. I don't really know where my bottom line is

I wonder if the likes of Fergie will stay as board member also.
 
Withnail said:
Literally could not give a shit. Great player and all and maybe it's an age thing. If it was an iconic player from when I was much younger then maybe... Baggio, Batistuta, Maradona type of thing but KDB who plays for City in 2023 does feck all for me.
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I guarantee it's not an age thing, unless you're on your 20's. For me, he's even more of a legend than the likes of Batistuta (if you truly follow Batigol career). I appreciate him enough to ascend over the rivalry.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Two genuine questions.

1. Do you think Utd being owned by a consortium of prominent Qataris will lessen or increase global scrutiny on Qatar’s Human Rights?

2. Do you think Qatar’s Human Rights / equality are more likely or less likely to improve if they are invested in mega famous global businesses that are linked strongly with social equality like Man Utd?

Or do you think that instead, people will talk less about it and apply less pressure to Qatar to improve in these areas? Genuine questions.

Also, if Qatar’s stance was ‘we want to oppress more and have it overlooked by the World’, why get involved with a huge club that is openly geared around equality, rainbow laces, no racism etc? It seems a lot of bother and I’m not sure the outcome adds up.

It seems like if I was a gay person in Qatar, or just a liberally minded person in Qatar, I’d actively want my country to be involved in things like this as a way of slowly exposing people to more progressive ways of thinking.

Surely that’s how change is gonna slowly happen?
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It will make zero difference. Qatar, Saudi etc do this largely for PR purposes so they can slow change while reducing criticism. And it is working judging by many on here.
 
Isotope said:
I guarantee it's not an age thing, unless you're on your 20's. For me, he's even more of a legend than the likes of Batistuta.
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I suppose I mean I no longer get as excited about, or put players on a pedestal, like I would have when I was younger. Footballers aren't my heroes anymore, so a signed jersey of any current player would mean very little to me.
 
Bert_ said:
Once we have them, we have them forever though. If the Qataris run us into the ground or turn us into a complete circus a la PSG, what can we do? No amount of money, protests, boycotts will be enough to get them to feck off. We are their property for generations at least. And considering they have no intention of making any money out of us, then we are doomed to be nothing more than a marketing tool. One of the biggest clubs in the world reduced to nothing more than advert for a nation.
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Won't work to sell as a marketing tool if people are burning Qatari flags outside the stadium.
 
Withnail said:
I supposed I mean I no longer get as excited about or put players on a pedestal like I would have when I was younger. Footballers aren't my heroes anymore so a signed jersey of any current player would mean very little to me.
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Understood. I don't buy any shirt anymore also. I guess i value these things more than you and others. Probably because i've always wanted a world class player signed shirt, and I have never had one.

In another 10 years, I think KdB's stature would be up there with the likes of Henry.

It's off topic, but a nice interlude. Maybe.
 
Isotope said:
Understood. I don't buy any shirt anymore also. I guess i value these things more than you and others. Probably because i've always wanted a world class player signed shirt, and I have never had one.

In another 10 years, I think KdB's stature would be up there with the likes of Henry.

It's off topic, but a nice interlude. Maybe.
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Totally off topic but yeah a nice conversation. Oh I've no doubt he'll go down as a legend of the game.
 
Wibble said:
It will make zero difference. Qatar, Saudi etc do this largely for PR purposes so they can slow change while reducing criticism. And it is working judging by many on here.
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Not working, it has worked, the reason Qatar and Saudi are doing it, IMO, is down to Abu Dhabi showing it being successful so they're following suit
 
Zlatattack said:
Won't work to sell as a marketing tool if people are burning Qatari flags outside the stadium.
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Flag burning is a bit ridiculous generally. You would hope people don't automatically associate all Qataris with the ruling regime and their shenanigans. Your average Qatari has no say in anything their overlords do so burning their flag seems a bit daft.

Anyway, even if that was the case and there was a mass burning of Qatar flags outside old Trafford, that might make the news in the UK. Anywhere outside the UK, probably not in any impactful way. All the world will see is commercials and billboards with united players and united branding advertising Qatar.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
So you’ll essentially turn into an oppo WUM?

And presumably, since you’ll no longer follow Utd, you’ll also invest equal amounts of your time ‘voicing opposition to sportswashing and state ownership (and eventually, cheating, if applicable)’ on City, Newcastle, PSG etc forums as well since this is something that bothers you so much?

It’s not just simply a case that you didn’t get what you want at Utd and are thus throwing your toys out of the pram…?
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That's a pretty silly way of putting it. Everyone who dislikes Uniteds owners isn't a WUM, he'd obviously be more concerned about United than other clubs and his issues with state ownership isn't "not getting what you want".
 
Wibble said:
It will make zero difference. Qatar, Saudi etc do this largely for PR purposes so they can slow change while reducing criticism. And it is working judging by many on here.
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City are the textbook example. The way they cheer Mansours name and have a big banner thanking him shows they know how sportswashing works and are delighted it's happening as long as "their" club is benefiting.
 
Tyrion said:
That's a pretty silly way of putting it. Everyone who dislikes Uniteds owners isn't a WUM, he'd obviously be more concerned about United than other clubs and his issues with state ownership isn't "not getting what you want".
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No one said disliking Utd’s owners makes someone an oppo WUM.

Rooting for other teams to win trophies against Utd while spending all your time on a Utd forum, complaining about Utd is an oppo WUM.

The guy freely stated that he’d no longer support Utd and would instead root for none state owned clubs to win trophies…

Fridge chutney said:
I won't support United but i'd be happy to see a non-state club win trophies.
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So, he’s saying he’ll be in here, happy to see Liverpool or Chelsea win the PL, while complaining about Utd.

Imo that’s throwing your toys out the pram.
 
Wibble said:
It will make zero difference. Qatar, Saudi etc do this largely for PR purposes so they can slow change while reducing criticism. And it is working judging by many on here.
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I think it will make a difference in future generations.

There’s just so much social progression rooted in particularly PL football and that is only going to get more volume I think (and hope).

A little kid in Qatar, UAE or Saudi that’s growing up obsessing over Utd, City or Newcastle having his heroes tell him that gay rights are important and women are completely equal is surely going to shape a more equal society when he / she grows up.

Little girls in these countries seeing the women’s PL is going to empower them no doubt.

And then having their own countries associated with these clubs legitimises the message a lot further.

I just can’t see how over 10, 20 years it won’t gently push some degree of progress.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
I think it will make a difference in future generations.

There’s just so much social progression rooted in PL football that is only going to get more volume I think (and hope).

A little kid in Qatar, UAE or Saudi that’s growing up obsessing over Utd, City or Newcastle having his heroes tell him that gay rights are important and women are completely equal is surely going to shape a more equal society when he / she grows up.

Little girls in these countries seeing the women’s PL is going to empower them no doubt.

And then having their own countries associated with these clubs legitimises the message a lot further.

I just can’t see how over 10, 20 years it won’t gently push some degree of progress.
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Maybe but in that area of the world what individuals think counts for very little. Plus for any small shift in that way the PR from sports washing has exactly the opposite (and much larger) effect. Look at how fast the Kashoggi murder has been more or less forgotten about. Contrast that to how Iran are treated where sports washing isn't a thing.
 
Women will feel empowered by the state who treats women as second class citizens being allowed to buy a UK institution :devil:

How inspiring.
 
Reapersoul20 said:
Women will feel empowered by the state who treats women as second class citizens being allowed to buy a UK institution :devil:

How inspiring.
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Doubt that’s how little girls growing up in the ME will see it tbh, as they’re growing up buzzing off of women’s football and seeing their leaders choose to associate with it.

A few generations of that and it’s hard to see how some positive change in equality won’t occur imo.

But you carry on mate. I’m sure your sarcy takes on a message board will make things better in the World :angel:
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Doubt that’s how little girls growing up in the ME will see it tbh, as they’re growing up buzzing off of women’s football and seeing their leaders choose to associate with it.

A few generations of that and it’s hard to see how some positive change in equality won’t occur imo.

But you carry on mate. I’m sure your sarcy takes on a message board will make things better in the World :angel:
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Ya, growing up getting treated like shit and surrounded by gross inequality has historically never lead to, like, terrorism or anything like that. Man Utd, with Qatar, will be making the world a better place.

I mean, not for the women or LGBT people or the slaves...but in three or four generations time...for a few women in Qatar who like football...well, actually, they won't be allowed to watch anyway so I guess it doesn't help too much either.

Sorry, I can't help but be sarcastic. I just find the idea ...very...optimistic. You're effectively saying that things will improve for the subjugated parties because their master will be afforded even more power, access to the world. I get what you're saying, I just don't think it's realistic for things to play out that way.

Also, you're OK with Man Utd being associated with "a few generations" of women being treated like second class citizens? Really? I don't mean to sound accusatory there but that's what I'm seeing written above....in a few generations things might improve so just get on board?
 
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Rhyme Animal said:
Doubt that’s how little girls growing up in the ME will see it tbh, as they’re growing up buzzing off of women’s football and seeing their leaders choose to associate with it.

A few generations of that and it’s hard to see how some positive change in equality won’t occur imo.

But you carry on mate. I’m sure your sarcy takes on a message board will make things better in the World :angel:
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What makes you think women's football will be broadcast on television in Qatar?
 
Fridge chutney said:
I find it interesting that you classify someone who is against sportswashing and state ownership as a "wum". I have been consistent in my views against state ownership model and i won't change what i think just because my own club becomes something i cannot accept personally.

I won't bother addressing the bolded because that is a disingenuous false equivalence and i think you know exactly why.
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How is it false equivalence?

If you're so against sports washing, surely you'd be being vocal against existing sports washing projects?

Could it possibly be you're virtue signalling and have backed yourself into a bit of a corner by saying you'll walk away due to the sports washing?
 
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