Workrate

I think intense pressing has become fashionable, probably starting with the 09 Barcelona, and then later Geggenpressing, or however you spell it. IMO, it's an approach, not the approach, and Mourinho has never really used it.

Mourinho has generally had a good injury record over his career, usually with a small core first team. I would hazard a guess he prefers not to increase fatigue by pressing like that.
 
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We are lacking so much in running power and pace as clearly seen here http://www.skysports.com/football/n...-league-distance-covered-rankings-for-2017-18. Football is a simple game in many way´s and it´s the case more often that the team working harder wins more games. Having 2 former wingers both at the age of 32 as the best options at right and left back is hardly going to last much longer and despite Valencia doing a ok job there, Young will never be a top class fullback. In midfield we are lacking a proper playmaker/attacking midfielder, I belive Mata,Miki,Lingard best postion is behind a striker but I also belive none of them are good enough for a top tier club. None of those 3 are wingers either. I really like Martial and Rashford but they are both strikers for me and Martial can do a job on the wings. Seeing Fellaini as a starter with United has never been right as he would get nowhere near the top clubs in England,Spain or Germany. Hoofing the ball to him as a plan B is just outdated football and we must get in proper fullbacks,wingers and a playmaker. Give Tuanzebe,McTominay,Gomes a chance to show what they can do. I´m afraid Gomes will go to Barca but we would be wise to avoid the same mistake as we did with Pogba leaving for Juve again. I´m sure Gomes would not do worse than Miki and Tuanzebe is a better player than Lindelof for me.
 
I agree somewhat with Jose that running for the sake of running is futile, and clearly the table itself is an indicator that increase workrate doesn't necessary equate to good results otherwise Bournemouth would be top of the table.

Nevertheless, there should be a happy medium and one thing I will say about this United side is that it always looks lethargic, slow and cumbersome and the distance results seem to reflect that. We are not a very high tempo side and that has been the case for a decade now.
 
Don't really care about running for the sake of running. Running is not our problem.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Km covered per team after first 4 PL games.

YHqwA




Problem?
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Aye, I canna see the actual picture.

However just noticed this post is ancient, my bad.
 
Said it last year, but unless you are winning every game comfortably, there is no remotely justifiable excuse for working less hard than every single opponent in the same competition as you. You don't have to be running around like maniacs every week, but if EVERY team you play outworks you, it is an obvious disadvantage straight away.

The idea it is to help later in the season and prevent fatigue was also thrown out the window last season, when after Christmas Jose made an absolutely massive fuss about us being too tired, despite similar statistics, and even went so far as changing his tactics and more or less throwing games away to try and prove his point. We also picked up a load of injuries.

Don't think it's any coincidence at all that City and Spurs are near the top either. If either of those teams had covered the ground we have, they would almost certainly have less points. Partly admittedly because their style of play relies on covering more ground, but if part of your game plan involves working harder, and it results in you winning more, I'm not sure what the excuse is for doing the opposite. There doesn't appear to be any long term benefit to it at all.
 
Raees said:
I agree somewhat with Jose that running for the sake of running is futile, and clearly the table itself is an indicator that increase workrate doesn't necessary equate to good results otherwise Bournemouth would be top of the table.

Nevertheless, there should be a happy medium and one thing I will say about this United side is that it always looks lethargic, slow and cumbersome and the distance results seem to reflect that. We are not a very high tempo side and that has been the case for a decade now.
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That's true. But sides like Bournemouth and WBrom are limited with regard to technical quality and sort of compensate with high work rate. Maybe their tactics aren't that great either. Still, the better sides tend to make the top 10 both regarding distance covered and sprints. City are 1st in sprints.

United look a bit passive for long periods of the games even when winning. There is also a clear tendency of struggling in away games: Stoke, Soton, Liverpool, Huddersfied (who are among the top sides re sprints), Chelsea. Benfica away was dull too. And this tendency may have a lot to due with the work rate.
 
noodlehair said:
Said it last year, but unless you are winning every game comfortably, there is no remotely justifiable excuse for working less hard than every single opponent in the same competition as you. You don't have to be running around like maniacs every week, but if EVERY team you play outworks you, it is an obvious disadvantage straight away.

The idea it is to help later in the season and prevent fatigue was also thrown out the window last season, when after Christmas Jose made an absolutely massive fuss about us being too tired, despite similar statistics, and even went so far as changing his tactics and more or less throwing games away to try and prove his point. We also picked up a load of injuries.

Don't think it's any coincidence at all that City and Spurs are near the top either. If either of those teams had covered the ground we have, they would almost certainly have less points. Partly admittedly because their style of play relies on covering more ground, but if part of your game plan involves working harder, and it results in you winning more, I'm not sure what the excuse is for doing the opposite. There doesn't appear to be any long term benefit to it at all.
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Treble said:
That's true. But sides like Bournemouth and WBrom are limited with regard to technical quality and sort of compensate with high work rate. Maybe their tactics aren't that great either. Still, the better sides tend to make the top 10 both regarding distance covered and sprints. City are 1st in sprints.

United look a bit passive for long periods of the games even when winning. There is also a clear tendency of struggling in away games: Stoke, Soton, Liverpool, Huddersfied (who are among the top sides re sprints), Chelsea. Benfica away was dull too. And this tendency may have a lot to due with the work rate.
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Agreed with both posts.
 
Our pressing has dipped massively too, no surprise when you consider we're compensating for the summer's recruitment and the midfield we currently have available.
 
This is all very strange. One of the strangest things is that there's only 50km total difference between us and the geggenpress at Liverpool!

Another odd quirk of the data is Matic being in the top 5 individuals. If anyone gets what Mourinho wants from the team then surely he does. I guess his status amongst the United players is a reflection of him being the only player to start every league game but how come he's also covered more ground than any other player in the top six?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
This is all very strange. One of the strangest things is that there's only 50km total difference between us and the geggenpress at Liverpool!

Another odd quirk of the data is Matic being in the top 5 individuals. If anyone gets what Mourinho wants from the team then surely he does. I guess his status amongst the United players is a reflection of him being the only player to start every league game but how come he's also covered more ground than any other player in the top six?
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Well the fact he's been one of our best players suggests he'd had to do some seriously heavy lifting which makes you worried as to how he will cope business end of the season considering his previous form for losing his way when exhausted and his age.
 
I don't think our team lack work rate when in defensive transition or closing down the players. It's more to do with off the ball runs which none of them does.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
This is all very strange. One of the strangest things is that there's only 50km total difference between us and the geggenpress at Liverpool!

Another odd quirk of the data is Matic being in the top 5 individuals. If anyone gets what Mourinho wants from the team then surely he does. I guess his status amongst the United players is a reflection of him being the only player to start every league game but how come he's also covered more ground than any other player in the top six?
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Liverpool have struggled in a lot of games this season and that and them not covering the ground you'd expect are probably linked I would guess. Klopp's approach seems to basically be to drown the opposition and it must require every player to be right up for every game, which only really happens if the players are hungry and confident. You see with any team that the intensity drops off somewhat when the confidence isn't there...unless it's a real make or break game.

Matic does cover noticeable more ground than our players generally do even without the stats, which is odd in that it just makes the lack of work rate from the rest of the team make even less sense, especially as he has also for me been our best player when you take consistency into account.
 
noodlehair said:
Liverpool have struggled in a lot of games this season and that and them not covering the ground you'd expect are probably linked I would guess. Klopp's approach seems to basically be to drown the opposition and it must require every player to be right up for every game, which only really happens if the players are hungry and confident. You see with any team that the intensity drops off somewhat when the confidence isn't there...unless it's a real make or break game.

Matic does cover noticeable more ground than our players generally do even without the stats, which is odd in that it just makes the lack of work rate from the rest of the team make even less sense, especially as he has also for me been our best player when you take consistency into account.
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I'd like to see distance/game stats because that might give a better idea of where Matic ranks with his team-mates in terms of effort. I'm fairly sure he's racked up more minutes than anyone else. I wonder if it's our fullbacks that are the main reason we're not covering more ground as a team? Valencia's the only fullback who gets up and down the touch-line with any kind of regularity and he's at an age where he can't be expected to work as hard as people who are 5 or 10 years younger than him.

It probably also doesn't help that Mkhitaryan has played so many games. His lack of effort is apparent for all to see. Bound to drag down the stats of the team as a whole,
 
I think we've been bottom of the distance covered table for the last two season. It says it all when we just love to sit deep and wait for the opponent to make a mistake. Somehow we end up complaining about fatigue without running.
 
No surprise, we literally walk around the pitch. Whenever opponents play at a high intensity, we don’t get near them and we lose every 50-50 ball.
 
Work rate is one of the most important qualities in the team, which was one of the reasons for our success in the past. We have always had players with very high workrate so it helped in faster transition from back to front and side to side.

Having high work rate in players is really important in epl as workrate is a quality which is relative to other teams and players. The higher the work rate ,you have more chances of winning 50-50 balls , duels and first and second balls, while having a quick transition which we are lacking at the moment in several areas, and the results and performances are in front of us in all the big games against sides who have fitter and faster players with relatively better work rate than our players.

Martial , Shaw, mkh, pogba, darmian blind Lingard ( lukaku a tad) all have relatively very low waork rates as compared to former United players and this becomes a clear reason you can not expect to win a midfeild battle out right , can not make faster transitional movements and loose out on duels and second balls.

Fergie never stopped chasing after players with high work rate from ji sung park to Roy keane evra giggs Nani Valencia young Rooney Ronaldo rvn kanchenclies, the new managers have changed that trend a lot which is obviously hurting our team when ever we face top teams.

Going for mkh instead of mane was one of those decisions where I was surprised to see mourinho choosing the former option intead of the latter one given mourinho has always been a workrate kind of manager.

Need to again target players with high work rates in mid and wings to improve this side.
 
We haven't been much of a high press side, preferring to sit deep waiting for 'mistakes'. We look very organised and more a unit, but it's at the transition that we seem to get disjointed. We don't break as a team with usually only a few select players keeping up or getting ahead of the ball. So many times I've seen the forwards try hold up the ball but there being huge spaces between team mates and no one (other than probably Rashford) particularly busting a gut to get there - let alone making coherent runs as a unit. This is why when we set up for the counter atrack away from home, we look like having just come for the point - this is not by design.

Even in games when the opponent parks the bus our movement is very hot and cold, no one really floating in between the lines and when there is its like no one's prepared for the interplay so it breaks down or we just recycle it back till a fullback puts in a cross.
 
I wonder where we were in these tables when Fergie was our manager, be interesting to see. Despite good results, we do look one paced and lethargic for the most parts of the game, it's how Mourinho keeps control of the games without being devastating going forward.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I'd like to see distance/game stats because that might give a better idea of where Matic ranks with his team-mates in terms of effort. I'm fairly sure he's racked up more minutes than anyone else. I wonder if it's our fullbacks that are the main reason we're not covering more ground as a team? Valencia's the only fullback who gets up and down the touch-line with any kind of regularity and he's at an age where he can't be expected to work as hard as people who are 5 or 10 years younger than him.

It probably also doesn't help that Mkhitaryan has played so many games. His lack of effort is apparent for all to see. Bound to drag down the stats of the team as a whole,
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Nah it's not something you can pin on an individual. When you look at the Chelsea game, I think they covered nearly 10k more than us in total. That can't be pinned on one player loafing about...that's the entire team doing less...In terms purely of ground covered it IS pretty much the equivalent of the opposition having an extra man on the pitch. It's really difficult to see how that doesn't give us a very real dissadvantage.

I mean, again, I could let it pass if we had a gameplan that was clearly working...but we're talking often about games we struggle in or in this case were outplayed in and lost. Where is the justification for it? Last year it was the same and the only possible redemption was it having a positive effect later in the season...yet for the last third of the season we were the ones who looked LESS fit than the other teams around us. We were the team picking up injuries. We were not even being competitive in the league games. Yeah we had a lot of games, but there is no way to be a succsful team without playing a lot of games.

What it says to me is that our players just aren't as fit or well conditioned as the other teams we're competing with. Either that or they are just not prepared to put the work in, or being told not to. The firs tof these explanations seems the most likely.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I'd like to see distance/game stats because that might give a better idea of where Matic ranks with his team-mates in terms of effort. I'm fairly sure he's racked up more minutes than anyone else. I wonder if it's our fullbacks that are the main reason we're not covering more ground as a team? Valencia's the only fullback who gets up and down the touch-line with any kind of regularity and he's at an age where he can't be expected to work as hard as people who are 5 or 10 years younger than him.

It probably also doesn't help that Mkhitaryan has played so many games. His lack of effort is apparent for all to see. Bound to drag down the stats of the team as a whole,
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He was around 11,5km in a recent game (most of our team), but can't remember which. Not Chelsea since I turned it off straight away, I think it might've been Benfica.
 
noodlehair said:
What it says to me is that our players just aren't as fit or well conditioned as the other teams we're competing with. Either that or they are just not prepared to put the work in, or being told not to. The firs tof these explanations seems the most likely.
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I'm sure you're right. There was a bizarre moment towards the end of Benfica at home when Lukaku went on a biggish run and looked and acted completely knackered for about five minutes afterwards. Everyone around me in the ground noticed and commented on it.
 
Good football comes with an intensity both with and without possession. Problem is, our players are pretty crap at keeping it at low intensity, nevermind at a higher one. Although I do actually think it'd improve if we did up it, and allowed for more natural creativity to happen.
 
Our front 4 haven’t got the intensity which the like of citeh and pool have, it’s annoying because our attackers are just as good as there’s!
 
We keep shape quite a fair bit and in that running around like a headless chicken can be more of a hindrance than anything else.
 
Where did Chelsea rank in distanced covered and sprints during their title in 2014-2015?
 
If United continue to occupy the same positions in the distance covered and sprints tables come April, the challenge for a top 4 place will be hard even though Liverpool and Arsenal look a bit worse than last season. It would take a miracle to win the title with such work rate.
 
funny how City as a collective are top for sprints but individually not one player makes the top 10
 
I was at the Huddersfield game and the difference in workrate between the two teams was substantial. I'm not saying that our base plan should copy Huddersfield's but, particularly given the dreadful conditions on the day when the difference in quality between the teams was bound to be reduced, we should have upped our workrate to compensate - we didn't look bothered until the last 15 minutes.

And generally we look quite static which is an indicator of poor workrate. I heard several comments on Sunday imploring the players to "pass and move".

It's odd because I always associated Jose's team with having a good workrate.
 
noodlehair said:
Nah it's not something you can pin on an individual. When you look at the Chelsea game, I think they covered nearly 10k more than us in total. That can't be pinned on one player loafing about...that's the entire team doing less...In terms purely of ground covered it IS pretty much the equivalent of the opposition having an extra man on the pitch. It's really difficult to see how that doesn't give us a very real dissadvantage.

I mean, again, I could let it pass if we had a gameplan that was clearly working...but we're talking often about games we struggle in or in this case were outplayed in and lost. Where is the justification for it? Last year it was the same and the only possible redemption was it having a positive effect later in the season...yet for the last third of the season we were the ones who looked LESS fit than the other teams around us. We were the team picking up injuries. We were not even being competitive in the league games. Yeah we had a lot of games, but there is no way to be a succsful team without playing a lot of games.

What it says to me is that our players just aren't as fit or well conditioned as the other teams we're competing with. Either that or they are just not prepared to put the work in, or being told not to. The firs tof these explanations seems the most likely.
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Well we can rule that out. There’s not a snowball’s chance in hell that a club like Manchester United with all the money, facilities and expertise built up over decades of success is somehow incapable of keeping its professional athletes as fit any other club in the league. That’s just preposterous.

Which leaves your final two theories. The very last one the most likely. Exacerbated by the other issues I mentioned.
 
I thought the whole point of the geggenpress was that you are pushed up in the final third against the opponent, and if lose possession regain it back quickly thus limiting the distance to recover the ball by running back, so it kind of makes sense that Liverpool ought not to be top of the distance cover league!

More than anything, the most frustrating aspect of watching Utd isn't so much the lack of distance they cover but the ponderous nature of moving the ball...the sort of pointless triangular passes in the opponents half more akin to a training session which just encourages the opposition to press and regain possession. I feel Utd players are collectively slow in thought rather than just slow in movement...and I'm not too sure if this is due to managers instructions being drilled in about positioning and tactical awareness which has driven out their impulsiveness and sharpness of thought. That may be a possible explanation for why our players (esp the forward ones) don't seem to be on the same page as passes, cutbacks and crosses go astray as frequently as they do!
 
RooneyLegend said:
We keep shape quite a fair bit and in that running around like a headless chicken can be more of a hindrance than anything else.
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This, a 100 times. Keeping it compact like Mou prefers is also what makes defenders like Jones/Rojo able to look great when in reality they are not near Vidic/Rio levels.

Keeping the shape tight is what makes us get more out of average players in defence.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Well we can rule that out. There’s not a snowball’s chance in hell that a club like Manchester United with all the money, facilities and expertise built up over decades of success is somehow incapable of keeping its professional athletes as fit any other club in the league. That’s just preposterous.

Which leaves your final two theories. The very last one the most likely. Exacerbated by the other issues I mentioned.
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I don't know if we're fit enough or not but facilities, wealth and and stature don't guarantee fitness. In the end it still comes down to the individual.
 
Dobbs said:
I don't know if we're fit enough or not but facilities, wealth and and stature don't guarantee fitness. In the end it still comes down to the individual.
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Of course but this is a business that makes its money out of maintaining a stable of elite athletes. And has all the technology you could ask for when it comes to getting them into peak physical condition and monitoring their fitness throughout the season. If any individual isn't putting the work in, there's nowhere for them to hide. Hence I find it extremely unlikely that, despite all of this, every other club in the league is better at doing this fundamental element of running a professional football club than Manchester fecking United. It's just completely implausible.
 
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