Workrate

Rado_N said:
You say that but our off the ball movement has been awful at times!
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Still we have possession because teams just defend with 11 players at OT? Also our distance stat is less because we have Zlatan who doesn't cover much ground.

Also our off the ball movement is okaish outside the box, once we enter final third our players just freezes.
 
I think the low work rate is due to the system we play to suit Ibra's strengths. Since Zlatan can't press from the top, we start pressing teams only after they enter our half. Our defending is also more zonal so the players don't need to go chasing the ball all over the pitch.
 
I think it's clearly a ploy to save energy, and not just because of the system we play. If we take the lead, we really relax and I can only imagine with all the "fixture congestion leading to player exhaustion" talk from Mourinho (and of course other managers), he tells the players not to over exert themselves. Probably explains why we haven't had so many injuries this season apart from the unavoidable ones.
 
friend said:
I think it's clearly a ploy to save energy, and not just because of the system we play. If we take the lead, we really relax and I can only imagine with all the "fixture congestion leading to player exhaustion" talk from Mourinho (and of course other managers), he tells the players not to over exert themselves. Probably explains why we haven't had so many injuries this season apart from the unavoidable ones.
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Makes sense.

Out of intrest, does anyone know how Chelsea did under Mou in that regard? They hardly ever had injuries either. Or how we fared under LvG?
 
Bump.

Just reading an article by Jonathan Wilson which is well worth checking out.

It contains a stat of relevance to this thread and an interesting interpretation as to why this might be.

One issue that many identified as a problem last season, though, hasn’t changed. Last season, no side in the Premier League ran less than Manchester United, which was generally interpreted as a reflection of their occasional sluggishness and perhaps especially the lack of mobility of Zlatan Ibrahimovic. Yet this season they are averaging as a team 0.6km per game less than last season, more than only Swansea and West Ham, and there is no suggestion that they are labouring.

Given how meticulous Mourinho is, given how consistently he has made improvements between his first and second seasons at a club, the only conclusion can be that he never regarded that as an issue – and results so far would seem to back him up. High distance run stats can indicate one of two things: either a side that plays a hard pressing game (which is why Tottenham are second in the list) or a team who have spent a lot of time chasing after the ball (which is why Bournemouth are top and averaging more than 20km per game more this season than last).

Mourinho’s sides, though, are discerning in when they press. They tend to sit deep, even against lesser sides, far deeper than is fashionable. His teams have always been at their best when they have space in front of them, which is why pace in forward areas and drive from midfield are so important to him. There has been criticism from those who played for him both at Real Madrid and in his second spell at Chelsea for a lack of coordinated attacking practice, particularly against massed defences and that, perhaps, is his one tactical weakness. He seems to prefer, counterintuitively for such a controlling figure, to sort out the defence and then allow his forwards to improvise – which is perhaps why his greatest successes have come with those clubs who could portray themselves as outsiders.

But this season only Stoke have resisted them. There will be sterner tests ahead, but if United are cuffing aside non-challengers, then they don’t have to attack those clubs who are challengers. They can sit back, kill the game, take the draw if necessary, and hope their counter-attacking prowess pinches a win.
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Its the nature of our game. We are content to sit in and let teams play around us, as long as we hold our shape. When we have possession we are good at letting the ball do the work for us. Personally im happy with it as it means our players have more in the tank when our chances to break do come.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
His teams have always been at their best when they have space in front of them, which is why pace in forward areas and drive from midfield are so important to him.
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And much as the students of totalvoetball and tika-taka, the acolytes of Pep and LVG, and just those who have an ingrained hatred of Mourinho, don't like to acknowledge it this is much closer to Fergie's style (and therefore the mythical 'United Way') than any kind of possession based, short passing philosophy will ever be.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He seems to prefer, counterintuitively for such a controlling figure, to sort out the defence and then allow his forwards to improvise
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There's nothing wrong with allowing our fast, powerful players to play intuitively and to develop trust in their own abilities and those of their teammates. After LVG stifled the life out of us with his lengthy rulebook this approach is very welcome.

It's also heartening to see that you don't necessarily need to run around like mad men to succeed in modern football.
 
11101 said:
Its the nature of our game. We are content to sit in and let teams play around us, as long as we hold our shape. When we have possession we are good at letting the ball do the work for us. Personally im happy with it as it means our players have more in the tank when our chances to break do come.
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The only problem I have is, we have defenders prone to lapses in concentration and moments of madness. One mistake and the counterattacking option goes out the window. So if we aren't well versed against playing against a tight defence, we will drop points. Stoke being an obvious example.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Bump.

Just reading an article by Jonathan Wilson which is well worth checking out.

It contains a stat of relevance to this thread and an interesting interpretation as to why this might be.
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Very interesting, when I started reading I was expecting the opposite stat, that we were covering alot more ground. How decieving it is when we are getting good results and playing with pace.
 
We seem to press a lot within small areas this season. I've noticed we cycle the ball in midfield a lot so far with passes received immediately back and done only to produce that bit of space. Distance may not have improved but i still consider our workrate to have done so.
 
11101 said:
Its the nature of our game. We are content to sit in and let teams play around us, as long as we hold our shape. When we have possession we are good at letting the ball do the work for us. Personally im happy with it as it means our players have more in the tank when our chances to break do come.
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Which is presumably a factor in us scoring so many goals late in the game.
 
12OunceEpilogue said:
There's nothing wrong with allowing our fast, powerful players to play intuitively and to develop trust in their own abilities and those of their teammates. After LVG stifled the life out of us with his lengthy rulebook this approach is very welcome.

It's also heartening to see that you don't necessarily need to run around like mad men to succeed in modern football.
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It must feel extremely liberating to move from LVG to Jose in that sense, but I've never read comments where players are complaining about a lack of attacking plans. Is it really realistic to assume that we do not actively work on particular ways to overcome teams that will shut up shop?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Bump.

Just reading an article by Jonathan Wilson which is well worth checking out.

It contains a stat of relevance to this thread and an interesting interpretation as to why this might be.
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Interesting, thanks for posting.

Just goes to show that really - it's a totally misleading stat based purely on style of play or in-game situations as opposed to being indicative of effort.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
And much as the students of totalvoetball and tika-taka, the acolytes of Pep and LVG, and just those who have an ingrained hatred of Mourinho, don't like to acknowledge it this is much closer to Fergie's style (and therefore the mythical 'United Way') than any kind of possession based, short passing philosophy will ever be.
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100%
 
Bastian said:
It must feel extremely liberating to move from LVG to Jose in that sense, but I've never read comments where players are complaining about a lack of attacking plans. Is it really realistic to assume that we do not actively work on particular ways to overcome teams that will shut up shop?
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I don't think anyone is suggesting we don't do any work on offensive tactics but I think you can see in players like Lingard that they have freedom to pop up in various areas.

The specific issue you raise of overcoming deep entrenched defences is an interesting one, and I can't pretend I'm privy to our work in that regard, but I would think allowing players to move into various areas to link up is a good way of getting defenders unsettled in their thoughts and moving out of position to try to pick us up.
 
Interesting read, thanks for sharing.

I guess one way Jose tries to ensure we are an attacking threat against packed defenses is to be a threat through set-pieces and crosses in general. Because with deep sitting teams, you do get the opportunity to play crosses and set pieces into the box quite often. We have probably improved in this aspect also this season, but we definitely need a better winger/full back in the team to be truly effective.
 
Thanks for sharing, great read.

Part of the reason why United are bottom 3 in terms of covered distance may be that all games ( except Stoke) were going well and the opposition was supposed to chase the ball. But if we are still bottom 3 come March, I'd be surprised if we challenge for the title. Different styles of play require different kinds of team movement to bring success but I don't belive that the winner of the physically hardest league in the world can afford to run significantly less than the other contenders.

BTW, there may be a correlation between the height of the team (the tallest team in the top European leagues) and the distance covered per game as I suggested in another thread. But that's highly speculative at this stage of the season.
 
AndyJ1985 said:
I won't lie; I see the way Liverpool press and how hard they work and I wish we played with such drive and determination. When done right it's very effective. The way we play is far too static and slow. It's been that way for years now.
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I agree that we are far too static on offence. But our defensive pressing is different. Liverpool go all out to pressure; it's like a full court press in basketball. Jose has clearly instructed us to sit deep and press at specific moments. Might explain the difference in distance covered.
 
12OunceEpilogue said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting we don't do any work on offensive tactics but I think you can see in players like Lingard that they have freedom to pop up in various areas.

The specific issue you raise of overcoming deep entrenched defences is an interesting one, and I can't pretend I'm privy to our work in that regard, but I would think allowing players to move into various areas to link up is a good way of getting defenders unsettled in their thoughts and moving out of position to try to pick us up.
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Yes, I don't doubt that the team works on various offensive tactics but I asked because of this from the article Pogue posted above

There has been criticism from those who played for him both at Real Madrid and in his second spell at Chelsea for a lack of coordinated attacking practice, particularly against massed defences and that, perhaps, is his one tactical weakness.
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It's interesting. Guess it's just confirming you should be working smart, not hard and it does indeed fit well with Mourinho's desire for a powerful, pace-driven side the needs space in front of it.
 
Treble said:
Thanks for sharing, great read.

Part of the reason why United are bottom 3 in terms of covered distance may be that all games ( except Stoke) were going well and the opposition was supposed to chase the ball. But if we are still bottom 3 come March, I'd be surprised if we challenge for the title. Different styles of play require different kinds of team movement to bring success but I don't belive that the winner of the physically hardest league in the world can afford to run significantly less than the other contenders.

BTW, there may be a correlation between the height of the team (the tallest team in the top European leagues) and the distance covered per game as I suggested in another thread. But that's highly speculative at this stage of the season.
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You'd think so. Although, paradoxically, perhaps conserving energy whenever possible is the key to success in such a physically demanding league without any winter break?
 
Bastian said:
Yes, I don't doubt that the team works on various offensive tactics but I asked because of this from the article Pogue posted above
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Ah I must have missed that. You're right, I haven't heard any of Jose's former players complain about this but perhaps there is something in it. That said breaking down stubborn defences wasn't our specific problem last season, it was more finishing the many chances we made that caused us trouble.
 
We still manage to win the ball back often enough too. One might argue it's been weak opposition, but I believe we had that ability last season as well barring the shaky start.

So we're able to press quite high without running ourselves down to the ground, which can't be anything but good news.
 
Probably also explains why Mourinho defences tend to look more focussed and organised as soon as he arrives - being tired leads to a higher chance of poor decision making.
 
Interesting. And surely a good sign that Jose can achieve results without running the players into the ground like Liverpool or Spurs. Tired players make errors. But I imagine are also more prone to injury long term?

Not sure if anyone has stats on the injury record of Klopp for example? His demands might lead to more injuries compared to Mourinho's style.
 
High work rate and energy is a must at United, very crucial in winning the duels and first and second balls.
 
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Treble said:
BTW, there may be a correlation between the height of the team (the tallest team in the top European leagues) and the distance covered per game as I suggested in another thread. But that's highly speculative at this stage of the season.
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:lol: You're obsessed.
 
I don't care about distance covered, I'd rather our players conserve their energy and use it when needed than spending 90 mins running around like headless chickens and chasing lost causes.
 
Thisistheone said:
Interesting. And surely a good sign that Jose can achieve results without running the players into the ground like Liverpool or Spurs. Tired players make errors. But I imagine are also more prone to injury long term?

Not sure if anyone has stats on the injury record of Klopp for example? His demands might lead to more injuries compared to Mourinho's style.
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I don't think it's really a key factor in injuries, you may run more kilometers when pressing higher so you might expose your players to more injuries due to fatigue, but sitting deeper and choosing a more direct style requires explosive efforts from the players, leading to injuries related to explosiveness.

The playstyle may not be even a "top 3" factor in how much your players get injured
 
Ishdalar said:
I don't think it's really a key factor in injuries, you may run more kilometers when pressing higher so you might expose your players to more injuries due to fatigue, but sitting deeper and choosing a more direct style requires explosive efforts from the players, leading to injuries related to explosiveness.

The playstyle may not be even a "top 3" factor in how much your players get injured
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That makes sense. I was just speculating really. Klopp seemed to have a lot of injuries at Dortmund.
 
It there any actual data in that article? The difference from top to bottom might only be a couple of km averaged over the full team, which I doubt would make that much of a difference.
 
Gopher Brown said:
It there any actual data in that article? The difference from top to bottom might only be a couple of km averaged over the full team, which I doubt would make that much of a difference.
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Normally, the differences between the top and the bottom teams in that table are quite significant. There are stats about previous seasons on the first pages of this thread.
 
It is obvious that Jose is using a different approach than almost all other top managers out there. To label it pragmatic wouldn't be precise because Simeone is as pragmatic as it gets but Atleti players run a lot.

In short, either Jose has found a more effective approach that can bring wins while saving energy or his understanding is a bit outdated. Personally, I reckon that relentless pressing is daft at times and the overall effect may be negative. Patience and a more withdrawn game may be more productive in certain circumstances. But at the same time I think that running less than the other top teams won't result in big success either. The big games are coming next month, so we'll know better.
 
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