And that's not the subject, the subject is workrate. A successful conservative system that isn't based on possession will provoke distance runned.
Workrate
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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And that's not the subject, the subject is workrate. A successful conservative system that isn't based on possession will provoke distance runned.
That's troubling though. He's asking them to press, but they aren't.
How is that the players aren't responding to a new managers instructions? Are they nodding their heads in training, only to discard everything when the game comes around? Or do they simply not understand what Mourinho's thinking is. Which I find hard to believe.
I assumed that he was actively encouraging the players to sit back, absorb pressure and break quickly, hence the lack of pressing. That's what we tried to do against Southampton, but seemingly against Watford, we should've been pressing, but weren't.
If this is a case of the players not responding to Mourinho, then we're up said creek without a paddle.
Or, shock horror, a new manager taking more than a few weeks to get the team playing the way he wants?
Seriously, people are losing their minds here. Presumably because City have started so strongly. There's loads of examples of excellent teams taking a few months to get up and running under a new manager. Just because some teams seem to be able to gel under a new manager fairly quickly doesn't mean we should expect all teams to do the same.
I've been as crushed as anyone by the way we've floundered after that decent start but the amount of posts drawing long-term conclusions about Mourinho's ability to do the job, within a fortnight of 90% of this place being delighted with him, is absolute fecking madness. The very definition of knee-jerk.
The players need to press but only when the opponent is in their zone. For example Shaw, when a player enter his zone with the ball he needs to press aggressively, the LCB needs to slide slightly to the left and samething with the RCB and the RB but when the right winger leaves shaw's zone or if the ball leaves that zone Shaw regains his optimal position and his back four teammates do the same. And that applies for most players on the field, at the very least for the back four, the two CMs and the two wide midfielders, they are not supposed to press outside of their box.
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No, no, no.
We're not referring to an entire tactical shift here, which undoubtedly, can take weeks and months to implement.
He's just asking them to press. In it's most basic form. He's asking them to run more.
In a single conversation that message can be gotten across. Prime example - Klopp didn't seem to have any trouble getting his new squad to press and run further in his first game in charge against Tottenham.
We've had a bad week. Which can happen. But that's not to say we shouldn't be asking the question as to why we so poor against Feyeonord and Watford.
Nah, it's obvious that Mourinho likes us to generally keep a compact shape. Which was also his modus operandus at all his previous clubs. Which creates a tension between sitting off the player in possession and closing the distance as they approach the danger areas. Getting that balance right isn't easy and it's obviously going to take a while before the players are instinctively reacting as he wants them to.
We're also talking about a fairly radical shift in approach to what we saw with our previous manager. Unlike Liverpool, where Rodgers was basically a poor man's Klopp. Ditto City, who won the league under Pellegrini playing very similar tactics to what Pep wants from them now. Seriously, the amount of data being used to make definitive decisions about whether he can succeed at United is insanely small and people are being far too hasty to jump to conclusions on here.
Not really, a conversation won't make you defend correctly as a unit. These things are worked on the training field and worked a lot.
No. Put the tactical shift to one side for a moment.
I'm just talking about a player closing down an opponent quicker. He specifically said after the Watford game 'instead of going up to press they decide to give space' - he is asking individuals to press and they aren't.
They are failing to following a basic instruction. That's what I'm getting at.
Rashford against Feyenoord, was pressing the backline. He was visibly frustrated that his teammates weren't doing the same.
If a manager, in a single conversation, asks you to close down an opponent in a game, you do it. It's not complex. Instead of standing off. You close down.
The tactical approach of the team is different and yes I agree, it is that that requires work on the training field.
Why is it against Feyrenoord, Rashford can follow orders and press, but some of his teammates can't?
What if Rashford is the one who didn't respect the instructions? Also in the opposition half, the instructions for the attackers or wide players can be different and are often different for a short lapse of time.
I know what you're getting at but I'm not sure you read (or followed?) the first paragraph of my last post and I'm not sure I can make myself any clearer, so I'll leave it here.
He was visibly frustrated that his teammates weren't doing the same. He was gesturing to them to do the same.
It doesn't mean that he is following the instructions.
Oh come on.
Perhaps the lack of a proper pre-season early on is starting to show
I get that you refer to it taking some teams longer than others to gel. And indeed the balance between compactness and knowing when to press. But if an individual isn't doing anything at all, then something is wrong.
It's one thing to not yet have fully grasped instructions, it's another to be just plain lazy.
Well, I don't know the instructions in the opposition half just after a lost of possession, I have noticed that no one except Rashford pressed in pretty much all our game, so he either isn't respecting the instructions or he is the only one to have them.
As for Pogue's point, Mourinho was talking about the goal and Shaw not closing the space, it's about when a player is supposed to leave his first assignment and press the ball carrier in our own third, that's a different scenario.
it is a process and the team just needs time to understand the philosophy. Jose just needs another 2-3 transfer windows to sort of the squad and everything will come together.
Am I doing it right?
Am I doing it right?
That would mean that Rashford isn't aware of the instructions given to his teammates. Which I find hard to believe. After all, he's unlikely to ask them to do the same, if he knows that they have been given different instructions. Thought I appreciate his youthfulness might be a factor here.
I'm more concerned by the individuals who are failing to follow instructions at all. As I have mentioned, it's one thing to be unsure of what to do, it's another to do bugger all.
Whatever the case may be, we should not find ourselves at the bottom of the table regarding running statistics. It's telling.
Apologies for not sticking to the subject. Workrate: non-existent.
I'm not sure that the players have run less than all other teams in the EPL only because they haven't learned when to press the opposition. Especially, when you see how exhausted they looked in the final 15 min of the last games, even when chasing the game as vs City and Watford. Something else is going on. Maybe we had a shit preseason and the players are not sufficiently fit?
Yeah, fitness does seem an issue. Which is odd. Because Mourinho's teams are usually fit as butchers dogs.
Exactly. It takes time to implement a pressing style. You need the right manager, who can draw it up, then you need the players who are intelligent enough to do it and most importantly have the (young) legs for it. That´s where I think United face huge questions marks. Mourinho has never set up his teams lke that. Mata, Rooney and Ibrahimovic as the physical and intellectual architects of a press?
Honestly they might be the biggest waste of money, if that was the original tactical plan. Is Pogba capable of setting the pace in midfield and be a maestro at his young age? At Juventus he was surrounded by Khedira and Marchisio, that´s like a MENSA-type midfield of footballing intelligence. Maybe Mourinho was very foolish to dismiss Schweinsteiger so quickly. Rashford
Martial Mkhitaryan Mane
Schweinsteiger Pogba
That would have been a lot more sensible than just buying the Raiola deluxed package. Also would have given Mourinho a little more leniency. Now he´s under big pressure, to not only win, but to play exciting football at the same time. Not exactly something his team have ever been known for. Even the Madrid sides were very organised and set up to hit big teams on the counter with the crisp passing of Alonso and Ozil releasing the speed of Ronaldo and ADM.
I think you're overcomplicating this. When the opposition gets into your third of the pitch you don't give them time to make decisions. You press them. It's a pretty basic instruction and there's nothing knee jerk about expecting that to already be in place. It's clear from what he's said that Mourinho is also expecting that of the players.
Why we don't is unclear. It's either fitness or a lack of confidence.
Well the Kolarov situation was in their final third, so I'm sure the expectations are a bit more complex than you imply.
nothing complex about saying, that we shouldn´t be #19 when it comes to distance covered.
Not really, that situation was equally simple. If the opposition is deep in their own half you don't let them easily play out. It's just basic stuff that you know at any level. Mourinho pointed it out after the game. Mkhitaryan shouldn't need a tactics book to know what to do there.
Again why he didn't we don't know. I'd put it down to a lack of confidence. Playing aggressive football takes a certain bravado.
Are we really? That's a pretty shocking statistic if true, but it confirms the laziness of the players we have.
Which probably explains why nobody would disagree with that.
20th, actually.
It'd be tough to say exactly what his specific frustration was but the instructions for Rashford would have been different to other players. Mourinho typically gives his two most attacking players an instruction to press intelligently and try and either win the ball if the opportunity is there or as is more likely, force the opposition to pass the ball wide by closing off the passing options in the middle.
For the most part he wants his midfield and back four to defend deep and stay compact. Only when the ball goes wide or gets close to our third of the pitch are they to start pressing.
That is unbelievable. We have overpaid, lazy and unfit players.
Agreed. Unsurprisingly.
As an aside, our lack of pressing hurts our own attacking impetus. With pressing comes tempo, with tempo comes movement, with movement comes options, with options comes chance creation and with chance creation comes goalscoring opportunities.
Instead, we're stand-offish, ponderous and at times, static.
We've been shit at pressing teams for a long long time now. We should be right up in a teams face squeezing them to the point of suffocation however with Mourinho preferring his teams to sit deeper this will likely be an issue we wont solve too easily. We'd need our defence to play a higher line so the midfield can push on to enforce this which I don't see happening.
Yeah that makes sense and the best teams have always done that. You don't leave big gaps between each other.
However the two examples cited by Mourinho so far are all about workrate and desire. Shaw and Mkhitaryan should have closed their men down much quicker. They didn't need to move out of their zone to do so.
Our players are the highest paid and have the best training facilities. I think it's a joke we're bottom of the distance covered table.
Agreed. Unsurprisingly.
As an aside, our lack of pressing hurts our own attacking impetus. With pressing comes tempo, with tempo comes movement, with movement comes options, with options comes chance creation and with chance creation comes goalscoring opportunities.
Instead, we're stand-offish, ponderous and at times, static.
Yeah completely agree. If you're sluggish off the ball you're not going to suddenly spring into life once you're on it.
Keane used to say that if you start slowly it's very hard to then pick it up. Tempo off and on the ball has to be there right from the off. Football gets overcomplicated for me. It's a simple idea but running really helps.
I don´t think that sitting deeper is the problem. A lot of teams to it successfully and Mourinho always organized his teams this way. The problem is, that we lack quality and coherence in midfield. We had a billion threads about this during pre-season, discussing how we´d line up. No-one expected that Pogba + Fellaini would be the go-to partnership and it is not hard to see, that those two player don´t create a good duo in this position. Herrea is not and never will be a DLP/DM so adding him won´t solve the problem.
I think it is fair to say, that Mourinho himself still hasn’t figured out how he needs to set up the team.
Our 3 DMs are Carrick (who is old and declining), Schweinsteiger (who is out) and Schneiderlin (who never got a look). I struggle to come up with any convincing lineup, that doesn´t include at least one of those three players. I am not concerned about losing a couple of games or about mediocre performances. I am concerned about another manager – who got every player he wanted - coming up with weird lineups that shoe-horn player into strange roles.
That's a fair summary and a bit of a worry alright. Crazy the way that for at least 10 years of Fergie's reign a large majority of United fans thought our options in central midfield were inferior to our rivals and now we've spent an absolute bloody fortune on beefing up exactly that part of our team we don't look a whole lot closer to building the dominant midfield we've craved for so long. The ghost of Scholesy haunts us still.
I'm sure Mourinho can get a lot more out of his various options given time, though. It was only a few games back that the press were raving about Hererra's reinvention as a deep-lying playmaker. Even if we give up on Carrick entirely, I'd be optimistic that the combination of Hererra, Blind and Schneiderlin gives Mou enough options to get the best out of Pogba eventually.
Another reason why we are 20th in the distance covered table is that we are hoofing the ball too often and bypass midfield. In a sense, Mou's style has been the opposite of Guardiola's or Klopp's or Poch's: almost no high pressure and bypassing midfield with long balls. Maybe he is trying something new here. It doesn't work so far.
Even if it doesn't have a huge impact on the match itself (although I believe it does), it at least has a big impact on the fans.
For example City last season just looked like they couldn't be arsed, it was so frustrating watching players run past our fullbacks/midfielders & them casually jog back towards our goal whilst we get overrun & concede time and again. If the same players had busted a gut to get back, failed & we'd conceded I'd be far less pissed off with what I'd just seen.
This season the work rate the team puts in for City is my favourite thing for sure, we actually look like we want to win the ball back & want to go and dominate the game - it's fantastic.
Similar to why fans always like Milner at their club, he's not a top tier player, but he works his ass off for the team & fans appreciate that style. Same with Navas at City currently, he gets far less grief than perhaps a forward in a free scoring team who scores once in two years should get because he always puts in a 100% shift each game.
Fans appreciate work rate, if my team are going to be working less hard they best be winning in my eyes or it'll be even more frustrating to watch.
For example City last season just looked like they couldn't be arsed, it was so frustrating watching players run past our fullbacks/midfielders & them casually jog back towards our goal whilst we get overrun & concede time and again. If the same players had busted a gut to get back, failed & we'd conceded I'd be far less pissed off with what I'd just seen.
This season the work rate the team puts in for City is my favourite thing for sure, we actually look like we want to win the ball back & want to go and dominate the game - it's fantastic.
Similar to why fans always like Milner at their club, he's not a top tier player, but he works his ass off for the team & fans appreciate that style. Same with Navas at City currently, he gets far less grief than perhaps a forward in a free scoring team who scores once in two years should get because he always puts in a 100% shift each game.
Fans appreciate work rate, if my team are going to be working less hard they best be winning in my eyes or it'll be even more frustrating to watch.