Woodward (old thread)

[Drummer]

Same here.

Since past 6 or 7 years, when we have become a 'balance sheet' for the Glazers to simply make money, I also don't care about how much we pay for players.

Im not sure why modern day United fans care what we pay for players. Just get the best we can into the club and enjoy watching them play.

Exactly... It's so crazy that fans laud the clubs commercial success and then get all concerned about the cost of players as if any money not spent on the squad is being saved for the future of the club!!

I don't give a flying fk how much the club makes if it's going to haggle over targets like a Europa league team..

 

[Manucho the boss]

Was Shaw really a marquee signing?

Obviously, I wouldn't give a toss if we paid silly money for Vidal. Just so long as we close the fecking deal.

Wouldn't call Shaw a marquee signing as such but it's no secret that Chelsea were very interested and we wanted to show that we're still relevant after an abysmal season.

I still think we're certainly getting another 2 signings at least, although there'll be less pressure on if we have a few wins on the board already, compared to the meltdowns that would be going on if we had bad fixtures before the window closes.

 

[Loon]

I would love to know exactly what the story is with Vidal. How this transfer has been played out to date. I don't even know if we ever made an offer.

 

[Manucho the boss]

Rvp? Are you kidding me? That was a steal!!!!

In hind sight it's worked out well for us, as he's not had any serious injury problems but Ferguson did say we had our pants pulled down on that deal. We ended up paying far more for a player with 1 year left due to man city's interest. Ferguson was desperate to go out on a high and paying a big fee for a 29 year old was successful for him in the short term.

 

[bishblaize]

Im not sure why modern day United fans care what we pay for players. Just get the best we can into the club and enjoy watching them play.

I can't help but see the irony of someone one the one hand complaining about the Glazers, and on the other saying money doesn't matter.

 

[Roboc7]

We do need a few more quality signings, but I would say the club has invested as per a club of our stature. The criticism Woodward has gotten from some on here is unfair.

Fellaini may not be the player muppets want but we should remember Woodward has negotiated and persuaded the Glazers to sanction over €170m worth of new players in Fellaini, Mata, Herrera and Shaw. That comes 12 months after major investments in Van Persie and Kagawa. I would say those 6 players are a very good investment into our squad.

I also remain confident a few more major acquisitions will come in close to deadline day, probably Vidal, Di Maria and Roja; and if they do, Woodward has been warranted to do his due diligence as all are complicated deals.

As the new CEO, I think he has had an even harder job than the new managers after SAF/Gill. Moyes was not Woodward's appointment and that relationship proved to be disastrous. Any CEO needs authority and chemistry with his team manager.

Woodward has as much competence and stature from his footballing general management background as LVG does from footballing team management. I also think his self confidence and 'ego' can go toe to toe with LVG.

The two just need to get on the same wavelength and operate as a team. It does not help them when United transfer muppets continually get on there back with unfounded criticism.

Last summer was a pivotal moment for the club, Woodward and Moyes screwed it up between them but we won’t ever know who was really to blame, as you said we have actually spent a lot of money but we have over paid or paid a premium for players and the two best signings we made (RVP & Mata) were in areas where we were already quite strong. Being successful in the transfer market is about how you spend your money not how much is spent, we are failing in that regard at the moment, circumstance and changing the managers plays a part but I can’t help thinking Woodward hasn’t quite got to grips with the transfer market and we need to get someone in to help him sooner rather than later.

I like your optimism regarding Di Maria, Vidal and Rojo but that would mean spending another £100m or more, can’t see that happening myself, Rojo and Blind are most likely signings for me, maybe even a stop gap like De Jong or Vlaar could arrive instead.

 

[goin4glory]

I apologize for being a pedant mate but is there such a thing as an optimal transfer fee ? Was 80 million for Bale optimal ? Or 35 million for Mangala ? Or similar for Hazard and Moura ? If the club has targeted a certain player and the sellers aren't willing to budge does he have another choice but to overspend ? What if we lose out on said player during the process of seeking the optimal fee ? He'll still be held responsible by in certain quarters. It's damned if you do and damned if you don't for Woodward. If he dithered on Shaw he'd still be culpable for blame and codemned for cutting corners and how we missed out on a potential superstar who could solve our LB issues for the next decade and beyond.

I guess an optimal fee would be what the club is prepared to pay but in truth there's so many variables that can affect any transfer which leads to certain players being seriously overpriced while others go for a relative bargain.

 

[Shamwow]

I'm not overly glued to news feeds for hopes of a transfer at this point, and I'm nowhere near the muppet as some on this forum, but I'd like to say one thing, Woodward, and his: We can break the transfer record as long as its the right player, etc etc all that big talk, is starting to finally irk me, Actions or Shut up yea?, don't sprout that type of rubbish, it just winds everyone up.
It's like the knobend at school boasting they can pull the fittest girl in the year if he wanted.... but chimes in later he just doesn't find her that hot to bother.
Bellend.

He's doing this to increase confidence in investors, it's to be expected now that we are on the stock market.

He won't be able to keep saying things like this without following up with actions though.

 

[Loon]

Last year, "Dithering Dave" had the blame laid firmly at his departing feet. This year, I believe a list of transfer targets was handed over some time ago.

 

[Invictus]

We can only judge the competency of any CEO/DoF by their records in the transfer market. Woodward doesn't have much in the credit column, but he has signed some good players. Mata is a definitely a very good player and Shaw is hopefully a very good player. If we're using these signings as a basis for judging Woody's competency in his role, you can't ignore the fact we paid a huge premium. And this is something that I usually try not to get too bothered about!

Fair enough.

But maybe we can delve into this particular issue a bit. Does it really count as a negative ? After all Woodward hasn't set the tone of the market : it's been inflated far too long with the emergence of clubs like City, PSG, Monaco or Chelsea and historically Madrid, Barcelona etc that paid exorbitant amounts for even average players. That is what we have to contend with unfortunately so financial logic sometimes goes out of the window.

If Southampton weren't willing to negotiate on price or Athletic with Herrera's buyout clause what recourse should Woodward have taken ? These days a premium has to be paid to acquire players, because if you don't someone else will. And if those players develop into top class signings down the line, United will be mocked for not pursuing them to the utmost. The club found that out the hard way with Hazard and Robben among others while getting labelled cheapskates by a large number of our own support base. In a way I for one am glad that Woodward is willing to overdraft a bit.

 

[Verminator]

Is this thread on a loop?

 

[KeninDC]

In markets prices are usually determined by supply and demand--the price of something is established where the marginal benefit equals the marginal cost. So--someone is willing to pay $5 for a widget so long as she receives at least $5 in benefit.

The transfer market violates every assumption of an efficient market: it's thinly traded, has information asymmetries and the goods have idiosyncratic characteristics that make them difficult to compare to one another. As a result, to me the transfer market operates like figure skating judges: every team has an opinion, which is based on some objective measurables (age of the player, goals, assists, tackles, whatever), but also a bunch of factors that reflect a team's own way of looking at players.

So--I'm not sure there's an "optimal" or "efficient" value for players. There are bargaining spaces between a buy-out clause price and whatever the purchasing team can get. The actual price paid, I suspect is influenced by the negotiating abilities of the parties involved. Sure-you can attempt to benchmark values using other transactions: so Bale went for X; a wing player half as good should sell for x/2. But--that's subject to so many variables that it's an approximation of market value, at best.

 

[Ødegaard]

Too slow at preparing bids for my taste.

 

[Red17]

Very poor again this year from Woodward. Very unlike what we've come to expect from United under Fergie and Gill. Starting to smell of the desperation and embarassment of the last transfer window. Big big promises, big big claims followed by very drawn out and very public saga of rumoured multiple pursuits but nothing concrete, leaving fans dangling, fake representatives, embarassing declines .... not the style and class of United past.

 

[Loon]

Plenty of time left, but should be looking at easily obtainable cover now as opposed to poster boys. Get that Champions League spot.

 

[dwd]

Is this thread on a loop?

 

[Moriarty]

Very poor again this year from Woodward. Very unlike what we've come to expect from United under Fergie and Gill. Starting to smell of the desperation and embarassment of the last transfer window. Big big promises, big big claims followed by very drawn out and very public saga of rumoured multiple pursuits but nothing concrete, leaving fans dangling, fake representatives, embarassing declines .... not the style and class of United past.

This. It's like having Del Trotter in charge of transfers. The Glazers are to blame for thinking their tame banker boy had skills that were transferable to the world of top-level football transfers - a world populated at this level by some of the most ruthless and savvy men in the game. It's all very well getting a Korean noodle manufacturer to sign on to the brand, but the serious business of football transfers is best left to pros like Gill. At least Gill looked the part. He dressed well, had good contacts, and had earned the respect of his peers. Woodward has the appearance of a barrow boy trying to get into Eton and being turned away at the gates.

 

[Will Absolute]

In markets prices are usually determined by supply and demand--the price of something is established where the marginal benefit equals the marginal cost. So--someone is willing to pay $5 for a widget so long as she receives at least $5 in benefit.

The transfer market violates every assumption of an efficient market: it's thinly traded, has information asymmetries and the goods have idiosyncratic characteristics that make them difficult to compare to one another. As a result, to me the transfer market operates like figure skating judges: every team has an opinion, which is based on some objective measurables (age of the player, goals, assists, tackles, whatever), but also a bunch of factors that reflect a team's own way of looking at players.

So--I'm not sure there's an "optimal" or "efficient" value for players. There are bargaining spaces between a buy-out clause price and whatever the purchasing team can get. The actual price paid, I suspect is influenced by the negotiating abilities of the parties involved. Sure-you can attempt to benchmark values using other transactions: so Bale went for X; a wing player half as good should sell for x/2. But--that's subject to so many variables that it's an approximation of market value, at best.

Never send a woman out to buy a widget.

Good post though.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Even if he gets Blind en Rojo, if the fee is over 40 million euro, he is a utter joe, they arent worth that money, he is a very bad negotiator since we have overpaid for all the players we've bought since Fergie left. Get him back to the commercial deals.

 

[7even]

Before the window is closed I reserve my judgement but I have to admit that I'm worried.

Roja? Looks like our scouting/legal team didn't get all the facts before entering negotiations. Let's see the outcome before final judgement.

Doing business so late is always a bad sign, no matter the circumstances.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Even if he gets Blind en Rojo, if the fee is over 40 million euro, he is a utter joe, they arent worth that money, he is a very bad negotiator since we have overpaid for all the players we've bought since Fergie left. Get him back to the commercial deals.

How can we possibly have overpaid for Herrera? Athletico can't play players not from Basque, they have no use for the money, so it's get out clause or nothing. And personally I think that if Shaw is out left back for 15 years 30m is a great price. Don't get me started on Mata, how much do you expect to be paying for a player of Mata's quality? 20m? Sure Lallana was more than that

 

[SirAF]

Even if he gets Blind en Rojo, if the fee is over 40 million euro, he is a utter joe, they arent worth that money, he is a very bad negotiator since we have overpaid for all the players we've bought since Fergie left. Get him back to the commercial deals.

A bit harsh I think? We have only really overpaid for one player under Woodward IMHO.

 

[Sammyjunn]

How can we possibly have overpaid for Herrera? Athletico can't play players not from Basque, they have no use for the money, so it's get out clause or nothing. And personally I think that if Shaw is out left back for 15 years 30m is a great price. Don't get me started on Mata, how much do you expect to be paying for a player of Mata's quality? 20m? Sure Lallana was more than that

TBF, Herrera is not worth 36 million euro, he is a very good player but imo not that good to cost 36 million as a midfielder. And what if he isnt, what if he plays here for 6 years and goes to Chelsea or something? 40 million for an 18 year old (LB), how is that not overpaying? Lets be a little realistic, Mata wasnt even a starter, and played a poor season, to get him for that amount is ridiculous, this amount would fit more if we bought him in that summer, IMO. And when you talk about overpaying, you compare it also with the other transfer businesses, when we buy Herrera for 36 million, and Chelsea buy Fabregas for 32? Real Kroos for around 30, Arsenal Sanchez for around 32 (talking in Euro's), I am quite shocked. Liverpool buy Moreno for what 20 million, we buy Shaw for 40, Bernat went for like 11 million to Bayern Munich.

 

[sullydnl]

I would say that the owners should take a close look at Woodward's performance regardless of who we sign.

Even if things work out for us in the next few weeks (and it's far from certain it will) it's still very dangerous leaving this much transfer work so late in the window, particularly in light of last year's disaster. Even if we miraculously pull off some spectacular signings it might be the case that Woodward has made enough mistakes to suggest he is out of his depth in this role generally.

 

[Moriarty]

In markets prices are usually determined by supply and demand--the price of something is established where the marginal benefit equals the marginal cost. So--someone is willing to pay $5 for a widget so long as she receives at least $5 in benefit.

The transfer market violates every assumption of an efficient market: it's thinly traded, has information asymmetries and the goods have idiosyncratic characteristics that make them difficult to compare to one another. As a result, to me the transfer market operates like figure skating judges: every team has an opinion, which is based on some objective measurables (age of the player, goals, assists, tackles, whatever), but also a bunch of factors that reflect a team's own way of looking at players.

So--I'm not sure there's an "optimal" or "efficient" value for players. There are bargaining spaces between a buy-out clause price and whatever the purchasing team can get. The actual price paid, I suspect is influenced by the negotiating abilities of the parties involved. Sure-you can attempt to benchmark values using other transactions: so Bale went for X; a wing player half as good should sell for x/2. But--that's subject to so many variables that it's an approximation of market value, at best.

I suspect this chap has some legal training or has recently studied contract law. If so, fraternal greetings and congrats on a very good post. I don't pretend to have an in-depth knowledge of the transfer market - far from it. In the 70s and 80s, before English clubs were seriously involved in overseas transfer dealings, the First Division was essentially a club for the boys where transfers were conducted between parties known to each other and on terms that didn't need a slide rule to calculate. Now it's a different world and the transfer market is global, whilst retaining much of it's local customs, if you get my drift. South American players often are owned by third-parties and that's a fecking minefield, as well we know. Can you imagine Ron Atkinson or Howard Kendall, for example, operating in that snake pit? They'd run a mile.

The transfer market is, as you say, "thinly traded." In that respect, wouldn't it benefit a dealer in that market to employ the best specialists available? Agents are power brokers, like the king-makers of old, they can dictate the fate of footballing dynasties. Object to paying their fees and it can lead to a whole world of trouble and your closest rivals beating you to the punch. The knock-on effects are very real and costly. Manchester United may well have been the preferred destination of top British talent back in the day, and still might be, but not for the Europeans or the South Americans. Players listen to their agents and if the word is that United are doing things on the cheap, players won't sign. If the agent thinks the guy he's negotiating with is a twat, same goes.

There are just so many imponderables in this bubble of a market as you've stated. It's not a place to learn on the job.

 

[Bloxy]

some are saying there's plenty of time, but most good clubs have done almost all their business already. Its all panic from here on.
we're still trying to get rid of 6 players and bringing in 3 new ones.

how do we do that in 3 weeks when we've done nothing in the last 5 weeks?

 

[Mindhunter]

People criticizing Woodward's work is laughable really, especially when they don't have a clue about the constraints that he us working under.

The only point of criticism that I think is fair is for him to disregard the fans and using press conferences as a propaganda machine for sponsors and season ticket buyers. He and the club should be sensitive of the fact that things said in those press conferences are scrutinized by the fans and they set expectations based of it. You can't run a football club like a corporate machine where you spout bullshit in the media.

 

[nimic]

It's pretty ridiculous that after such an underwhelming season, United is the club with the least amount of signings in the Premier League.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

Fellaini may not be the player muppets want but we should remember Woodward has negotiated and persuaded the Glazers to sanction over €170m worth of new players in Fellaini, Mata, Herrera and Shaw. That comes 12 months after major investments in Van Persie and Kagawa. I would say those 6 players are a very good investment into our squad.

Of the players that have moved since 2012 think of what you could have got for 170m + whatever we spent on Van persie and kagawa.
looking at it like that we have spent poorly overall in my opinion.

Starting with van persie and kagawa, only one of them were needed. in this specific case, kagawa has been wasted whilst RVP was a very good buy.

Fellaini is self explanatory including the horrific debacle surrounding the buyout. 27m was a panic buy pure and simple.

Mata is the only one of the 170m euro pack worth the exact price we paid. he is a brilliant marquee signing, albeit a luxury one chelsea were desperate to offload. who knows if with better negotiating we could have got closer to 30m its not too big an issue im just glad we got him.

Herrera looks a real player, and in a position we desperately need strengthening. im not too fussed about the price as he's a good signing, but it was steep compared to players like Kroos moving for 20m euro, de rossi being available for 10m or so last summer. Modric was 25m or so at the same age. there are tons of examples we could dig up.

Luke shaw. Where to start. 27m rising to 31m or somewhere around that. He will most likely turn out to be our lb for a decade, but you have to ask is he really 15-19m POUNDS better of an investment than Moreno? or 10m or so better than Rodriguez from wolfzberg?
im not doubting the lads quality one bit he's going to be a smashing LB for us im sure. but im talking about compared to other investments available.

The summer we paid 40m on kagawa and Van persie, zlatan and Thiago silva moved for a combined 50m. talk about value in the transfer market and you will be hard pressed to find much better there.

Weve allways spent money at united. But i reckon we've spent it pretty poorly recently. dating back to ronaldo being sold and Valencia taking his place.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It's pretty ridiculous that after such an underwhelming season, United is the club with the least amount of signings in the Premier League.

Past 2 seasons big purchases:

Marouane Fellaini - 27m
Juan Mata - 37m
Shinji Kagawa - 12m
Robin Van Persie - 22m
Wilfred Zaha - 15m

Excepting RvP, not one of them have earned their keep. The team was screaming for midfielders, yet we get only Fellaini. The team was screaming for wingers last season, yet Zaha was ignored.

We did not even need Kagawa, yet there was this possibility of moving away from 4-4-2 that Fergie dangled, then Moyes 'upgraded' with Mata who again is a good player, but not one who players where we sorely need cover.

With gross misspending like this, no wonder we struggled.

 

[ravi2]

Past 2 seasons big purchases:

Marouane Fellaini - 27m
Juan Mata - 37m
Shinji Kagawa - 12m
Robin Van Persie - 22m
Wilfred Zaha - 15m

Excepting RvP, not one of them have earned their keep. The team was screaming for midfielders, yet we get only Fellaini. The team was screaming for wingers last season, yet Zaha was ignored.

We did not even need Kagawa, yet there was this possibility of moving away from 4-4-2 that Fergie dangled, then Moyes 'upgraded' with Mata who again is a good player, but not one who players where we sorely need cover.

With gross misspending like this, no wonder we struggled.

All of this could have been avoided if we had a proper DOF.
But something tells me the shit would have to hit the fan in a spectacular way for that to happen because it would entail Ed relinquishing some of his responsibilities.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

All of this could have been avoided if we had a proper DOF.
But something tells me the shit would have to hit the fan in a spectacular way for that to happen because it would entail Ed relinquishing some of his responsibilities.

Maybe. I would say create a Director of Transfers spcifically for the role to support managers with dealings.

For me, Woodward has pretty much been useless as CEO. He is damn good as Director or Marketing/Revenues/Brand Improvement etc...but overall as CEO, a non-person.

 

[Moriarty]

People criticizing Woodward's work is laughable really, especially when they don't have a clue about the constraints that he us working under.

The only point of criticism that I think is fair is for him to disregard the fans and using press conferences as a propaganda machine for sponsors and season ticket buyers. He and the club should be sensitive of the fact that things said in those press conferences are scrutinized by the fans and they set expectations based of it. You can't run a football club like a corporate machine where you spout bullshit in the media.

He's the one saying money is no object and we could break the world record transfer fee.

 

[sullydnl]

It's pretty ridiculous that after such an underwhelming season, United is the club with the least amount of signings in the Premier League.

We haven't cleared many out either, have we? So much for our big summer.

Right now it's about avoiding a terrible summer rather than actually having a good one.

 

[sullydnl]

All of this could have been avoided if we had a proper DOF.
But something tells me the shit would have to hit the fan in a spectacular way for that to happen because it would entail Ed relinquishing some of his responsibilities.

Maybe or maybe not. Plenty of clubs with DoFs have been terrible in this regard too. Gross incompetence will kill you regardless of the structure of the club.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Right now it's about avoiding a terrible summer rather than actually having a good one.

Deja vu 2013!

 

[Mindhunter]

He's the one saying money is no object and we could break the world record transfer fee.

Yes, and hence the second part of my post. I firmly believe that he addresses sponsors and prospective season ticket buyers while making such statements. He has been a corporate person all his life and that's how his brain is wired. He should actually think about how these pressers are the only way fans get information about the club and stop making such sensationalist comments.

 

[ravi2]

Maybe or maybe not. Plenty of clubs with DoFs have been terrible in this regard too. Gross incompetence will kill you regardless of the structure of the club.

You are correct in that getting a DOF doesn't suddenly make us run like clockwork but it sure assists in negating risk and continuity planning IMO...2 things which we seem not to give a crap about in recent times.

 

[ravi2]

Yes, and hence the second part of my post. I firmly believe that he addresses sponsors and prospective season ticket buyers while making such statements. He has been a corporate person all his life and that's how his brain is wired. He should actually think about how these pressers are the only way fans get information about the club and stop making such sensationalist comments.

His interview convinced me that he is a fan of the club as well and not just a money man.
I truly believe he wants the best for the club and is willing to do whatever it took to get us back to the top....unless the man is a very good actor.

Last year I was slating him and Moyes to the heavens but I am prepared to give him till deadline day before casting judgement.
I am unnerved by the length of time all of this is taking but I believe that the ends will justify the means.

 

[LARulz]

I just thing this guy is not that great with negotiating with clubs. He spends a lot of money on players he does buy but for me that doesn't make him impressive. What I'd find impressive is someone who can buy a great player for something that is not their buy out or pay over the odds. Throwing tons of money like he seems to do does not seem too difficult. I would much rather he stick to bringing in business as he seems fantastic at that, let someone else do the negotiating when it comes to spending the money. In doing so, we could get more targets more often