Ty mate. Looking forward to exchanging opinions about portuguese football with you. You usually do a good job, except when you were mocking us last year (but i give you the Godinho Lopes excuse
)William Carvalho
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Ty mate. Looking forward to exchanging opinions about portuguese football with you. You usually do a good job, except when you were mocking us last year (but i give you the Godinho Lopes excuse
)Mané is a different player in relation to Nani. I understand when you say that he reminds you of Nani from viewing some highlights but they are different. Mané is a winger like Nani was but our manager is trying to make a transition to the number 10 position putting him behind our striker. His performance in the last game was very encouraging and perhaps he will start playing there. But responding to your question, he is one of the latest gems (along with Carvalho) from our academy. He comes from our distinguished school of wingers ( "produced" players like Futre, Figo, Quaresma, Simão, Ronaldo and Nani) and is showing alot of potencial. He is very pacy, capable of beating his man with good dribbling and shooting ability. If i compare him to Nani i can say that Nani has a better shot and is a better crosser but Mané has better decision making and positioning. Mané although playing as a winger in some games, has the ability to appear in very good positions in the box and has scored some goals thanks to that. Nani has better raw potencial and ability but Mané is a more intelligent player in football terms with better end product (comparing their Sporting careers).
Even so it´s still too early for him to move abroad. He has about 15 game for the main team and hasn´t proved himself in european competitions like Nani did (Nani had a very good Champions League campaign before moving to United). But the potencial is there and i have the expectation that he will be a key player next year (considering Carvalho will probably leave in the summer)
Sporting has some well known financial difficulties i think United if United offer them half of what they are asking they will sell him cause they need the money plus if i'm not mistaken Sporting only owns a portion of his pass (they are currently trying to buy the rest of the pass) unless some team like City gets involved and then they will end up probably paying them what they are asking for or make United match their offer in order to get the player(then its the players choice and i believe he would choose United over city).
Mané is a promissing talent but i think hes closer to say Yanick Djalo than Nani in terms of talent and where he can play as either a winger or behind the main forward playing as second striker, he even looks like Djalo physicaly hopefully for him and for the national side he doesnt turn out like Djalo and could maybe follow the footsteps of Nani.
Thats a good post mate. Hopefully he doesnt end up playing for The Corrupts(Porto) in the future like some players that were product of Sporting's youth academy have.
You're now making up posts just to use the expression "The Corrupts". As if Porto had any chance of getting anyone from Sporting nowadays. I wonder what your role is in this forum other than spewing condescending and insulting crap all the time.Thats a good post mate. Hopefully he doesnt end up playing for The Corrupts(Porto) in the future like some players that were product of Sporting's youth academy have.
Thats a good post mate. Hopefully he doesnt end up playing for The Corrupts(Porto) in the future like some players that were product of Sporting's youth academy have.
Well i know you were just teasing me but you are right. As a person who hated the "Croquette" breed, I hope Bruno de Carvalho has ended those days, that´s all i can say.
From the games I've seen of Mané, I can't say he's struck me as an A1 talent to be one of the best in the world. My guess is he'll end up around Europa League level (at best). No 'boy genius' there, which you would want in a 20 year old Portuguese winger. There is maturity in football yes, but as a wide player, you should show more raw talent at 20 if you are to make it to the very top. We are not talking about a centre half or right back here, who may become good later. Mané will of course improve as a player, but not to the level where he will become an elite player I don't think.
See mate this is where we disagree. We are experiencing financial difficulties (like Porto and Benfica are, both are lowering their football investments) but we have finished our financial reestructuration, lowered our expenses (sold and loaned big wage flops like Labyad and Jeffrén) and will probably have more financial leverage for negotiating with our possible Champions League qualification. You are right when you say that we only own a portion of his pass (60%, the other 40% are in the hands of a Peter Kenyon fund i think) but we have the player tied up to a 5 year contract. Our position is confortable, as our President explained in yesterday´s interview. I already said in the newbs, that the 45 million euros valuation (you can´t call that valuation, it´s just the release clause) is too high but if he is attracting interested from top clubs (for example Mónaco has also joined the race and has close ties with Mendes) our President will use that in negotiations and will definitely defend our interests. I think he is a very good player with potencial to become a world class one and i think the investment will be considered a "bargain" with what he can possibly offer in the future
You can´t make that evaluation yet. I don´t really know what "boy genius" means but if Quaresma and Paím for example were considered "boy genius" that´s a pretty bad endorsement. And i disagree with your "simplification" implying that at 20 you must show more raw talent or that in the specific winger position it´s harder to improve comparing to other positions. I can counter with an example from our own academy. Figo only began to really "explode" talent wise at the age of 21. He went to Barcelona at the age of 23. You know the rest of the story but it was good enough for him to play in the top two big clubs in Spain and become a World player of the year. Things aren´t as linear as you try to portray and every player has their own caractheristics.
Regarding Mané, he is highly rated by our youth team coaches and by our manager. Mané was very good (Bruma said he thought Mané was better than him) in the youth ranks and in the next gen competition (specially against english opposition mainly Liverpool). Last year he played in the youth ranks and B team and began doing the transition to the main team this year under Leonardo Jardim. It´s still too early to tell but he has great potencial. Will he fulfill it? I don´t know but he needs to prove himself in the portuguese league and play in european competitions like Nani did. Then i will make the assessment if he can become an elite player or not. It´s madness to discard that based on 15 games and i doubt you have seem them all. Like i said we are in early stages of his career but i have big hopes he will become an influencial player in next year´s Sporting campaign
My assessment wasn't definitive, I said this is what has struck me from watching him a few times. And yes, Quaresma and perhaps Paim were boy geniuses, and they did not fulfil on that promise for many reasons, none of them being a lack of talent. Likewise, in my opinion, if Mané becomes a world class player it will not be solely because he is just a world class talent.
Of course, I expect him to develop (if he works harder than the likes of Quaresma he can develop very far), although he will of course develop within the confines of what he has. Ronaldo could have gone the route of Quaresma for example. But he had enough at 18 to know that if it DID work out, he would probably be the best player in the world. With Mané if it all works out, he will likely not be that good in my opinion.
I didn't watch Figo as a 21 year old, but I would imagine that his coaches would have known, even then, that he had the potential to become what he became. He certainly didn't learn how to play football at Barcelona.
Fair enough. But i still can´t give definitive opinions like even if he fulfills his potencial he won´t be as good talent wise as Quaresma for example (it´s too soon). Talent isn´t just tricks and rabona´s and although Mané doesn´t have Quaresma´s "repertoire" he does seem better at decision making, end product and with better collective sense even with all the technical talent (comparing the same Sporting stage). In my opinion Mané has the talent and the mentality (very humble with good work ethic) to become a very good player. I can´t define any goals for his development because he is still a work in progress and he shows new aspects everytime he plays a new game (capability of dictating game from the number 10 position is something new). If it´s enough to become world class i don´t know. But next year with a full calendar portuguese league and possibility a champions league campaign we will probably make a better assessment.
Last part about Figo was probably true about Ronaldo but not Figo. I mean we expected him to have a good internacional career but just not as good. It was all thanks to his drive, professionalism and ability obviously (a bit like Ronaldo on that aspect).
Surely though, any good coach should be able to look at a 21 year old and say 'IF he is determined and applies himself, he can become a world class player'? The 'talent' of a player should be visible by that age, if not the maturity and end-product. Decision-making and mentality etc may be areas in which Mané is superior to a young Quaresma, but that surely shows greater maturity, not talent?
Anyway, in your opinion, do you see Mané as a 'special' talent? Do you see him the same way you saw a young Quaresma or Robinho? Just asking as you have obviously seen him more often than myself.
Not sure i agree. I considered Rui Costa a very talented player. What was his major qualities? Decision making and passing. I understand what you are trying to say but i consider that as talent. It´s a matter of opinion. Van Nistelrooij´s end product and finishing can´t be classed as talent? A natural and intuitive ability? If i was to take a wager with you about who is going to have a better internacional career between Mané and Quaresma, i´d have no doubts in betting on Mané. Who is going to have best youtube highlights all over the net? Quaresma definitely.
Yes i consider Mané a special talent. Not only me but also our Manager (obviously he would say that), our Academy director Aurélio Pereira and players like Bruma and Carvalho who played with him in the youth ranks. I have great confidence in him because if he evolves well physically and mentally he has all the tools to become a very interesting player. It´s difficult to combine technical ability with a good collective sense and productivity. Put that in a package along with good work ethic, professionalism and drive and we can have a winner. I´m still skeptical about branding him in the same bracket as William because he has to prove more. Carvalho has been one of the players of the season in Portugal (full campaign) and has achieved national team internacional status. Mané has about 15 games of very interesting performance with potencial to become a main player in our squad next year. The challenges of a full domestic campain and a champions league participation will give us a more exact evaluation of the players potencial and ability.
Rui Costa's 'talent' was his technical ability. He had a great touch, weight of pass, dribble and shooting. The fact that he made the right decisions, in my opinion, helped him to make the most of his talent. No matter how many goals Ruud got in his career, he could not be considered as 'talented' as Ronaldo (R9). They may have both got to similar places, but Ronaldo's potential to be the best player in the world was probably visible since he was 10, I doubt Ruud's was.
It is also easy to bet now that Mané will have a better international career to Quaresma, seeing as the latter has already proven to not be a success at that level and the former has yet to begin his. My point was if they were both 20, I doubt many people would rate Carlos higher. Similarly, nobody thought Ronaldo was more gifted than Quaresma when they were both young players. They went different paths and now, everyone would say CR7 is better. That doesn't mean he was more gifted. Ronaldo is a combination of very good natural talent and fine-tuning of the highest order, wheras Quaresma is extreme talent with little or no harnessing.
Would you say, based on what they achieved in their careers, that Frank Lampard was more gifted/talented than Paul Gascoigne?
I know I've stopped talking about Mané now because I am submitting to your superior knowledge on the player. I'm just generally speaking now.
Him and your kid Bernardo Silva (i like his ability) will have national team status if they fulfill their potencial. The difference is Mané plays in a team with less financial resources and has been given chances in the main team. Bernardo Silva although a great talent is still stuck in the B team. I have no doubts if Bernardo Silva was at Sporting, he would be a part of our main team.
You make good points and express yourself better in english but perhaps our definition of talent is different. Even so it´s hard to disprove your point in the first paragraph. My main problem with the way you evaluated Mané is that you have set him some limitations in terms of potencial and i´m not that hasty to make that kind of assumptions. Like i said, he shows new aspects of his ability in a every game and is still evolving.
It´s not an easy bet. Quaresma although he didn´t prove himself at Barcelona, Inter and Chelsea was still able to get there. He had very good campaigns for Porto in the Champions League, against top european teams. He also had some reasonable games in the qualifying stages for our national team. He just couldn´t do it in the major competitions where the managers prefered other less talented but more reliable options. Mané has potencial but he is yet to prove himself in our domestic football (he has about half of season of top flight football). Nothing is certain although he has been showing encouraging signs with his ability.
Look at this wellfare abuser and corruption apologist getting mad and crying his eyes out over nothing
The Corrupts have two former Sporting youth team players playing for them and have had others in the past as for the future who knows what will happen, you and i dont know for sure if any other will end up there someday, So what did i made up in my post?@Sly
What happened to Filipe Chaby from your youth teams, i remember him looking excellent in the youth gen a couple seasons back?
What happened to Filipe Chaby from your youth teams, i remember him looking excellent in the youth gen a couple seasons back?
Look at this wellfare abuser and corruption apologist getting mad and crying his eyes out over nothing
What the feck is this shit?
If you insult my team without absolutely no content to discuss, then I will stand up for them. I've put walls of text in this forum about corruption and you replied to none, instead you jump from topic throwing that crap like if this was a Portuguese football forum.
Adding personal insults in a football forum goes far beyond that, "son".
Figo was part of the Portugal u20 team that won the world cup wasn't he, i'm sure he had a lot of hype around him before he was 21, he made his senior debut at 18...
This from a guy that has called me idiot and other stuff multiple times , gotta love the irony.
Get off your moral horse and go back to wellfare line "son".
You rile people enough to get that kind of insult back. Dozens have experienced your condescending bullshit here, name me one person that has something to say about me.
And I'd rather you called me idiot than kept up with that wellfare crap, which I don't know where it comes from but I presume is another lowly stereotype about Porto (city). The use of the expression says everything about you.
Yeah he made the debut at 18 but played about 5 games that year and then progressively started to gain main team status till he cemented his place at around 21 years of age. Of course he had hype but not just the type of hype Ronaldo or even Quaresma had. The part about the u20 team doesn´t really prove anything as there were alot of potencially good players from that generation that achieved nothing. Everyone expected Figo to have a good internacional career, just not at the level he achieved (world player of the year).
Good memory. Him and Iuri Medeiros are at B team level at the moment. His transition has been slower because he faces more competition for his position in the main squad. Even so our football structure has high hopes on him and he just recently renewed till 2018 and has a 60 million release clause (obviously not indicative of his value, just a new Sporting policy for youth players with high potencial).
Been following the João Carlos thread on rawk. He was a player that i liked alot on our youth ranks and was sad to see him leave without taking full advantage of him in our senior team.
Dozens
Here he goes making up shit again.
Like he does when he denies that The Corrupts aka Porto where deeply involved in corruption for the last 30 years.
The Corrupts fans live in denial they deny that they were ever involved in corruption like some people deny that the holocaust ever happened, luckily for the rest of us 99% of people now better and can see through poeple of your ilk's BS.
Portuguese verbal civil war happening here by the looks of it...
I'm stayin out of it thats for sure!
I'm stayin out of it thats for sure!
Any need for that?Look at this wellfare abuser and corruption apologist getting mad and crying his eyes out over nothing
Dozens
Here he goes making up shit again.
Like he does when he denies that The Corrupts aka Porto where deeply involved in corruption for the last 30 years.
The Corrupts fans live in denial they deny that they were ever involved in corruption like some people deny that the holocaust ever happened, luckily for the rest of us 99% of people now better and can see through poeple of your ilk's BS.
Did I ever deny that? No, I didn't. And I've written loads about it. I just denied Porto is any worse than other clubs. Naive to think that in a country where corruption is rife in every area of society, Porto, who isn't even the biggest club, would be the sole culprit.
You don't read the discussions you sparkle yourself. You just see the world in an ignorant black in white. "Oh, there's a Porto fan. He denies corruption ever exists because he's a Porto fan. He's a corruption apologist." There are no individuals with individual opinions here, are there? Actually there are, you just don't bother to read them. You, on the other hand, are as stereotyped as it gets. I've read everything you said here in other football or newspaper forums for years. Your mind is a whole assembly of copy-pastes you do of the things you read most often, without an ounce of critical thinking.
Yes i rated him very highly because i remember him and Teixeira demolishing a youth team that consisted of Sterling Suso and others. Really impressed me that night, in fact even more than Joao Carlos, thought he would have progressed more considering Texieira recently made his first team appearance and looks to have a promising future at Liverpool. Really hope he kicks on for the sake of Sporting and Portugal, also Illori has looked decent, what was your opinion of him?
Its crazy the rate Sporting have been and are still producing players as well, up there with Barcelona and Ajax for me.
Yes you were worse than any other clubs and any non The Corrupts fan would agree with it, its not like i'm the only one saying it most of the country would agree with me, hell theres even foreign neutral observers that would agree with me and the problem is not that corruption is rife in the country the problem is that justice doesnt work and corrupts like your club's chairman gets away with it with a slap on the wrist and a slap on the face for the law obedient citizens who see guys like him act with impunity for years and years. Say what you will about Italy and their reputation for being corrupted and all the mafia shit etc but they had the guts to send their biggest club to the second division due to corruption and what they did is nothing compared to The Corrupts aka Porto reign's of corruption in portuguese football for the last 30 or so years and Luciano Moggi is a saint compared to The Corrupts chairman Pinto da Costa.
, , , --> They're useful.
When faced with the truth he goes silent typical behavior of people of your ilk.
Even The Corrupts themselves accepted that were involved in corruption when they were found guilty of corruption and instead of appealing the verdict they chose not to, they basically accepted that they were guilty.
BTW hers a pic of Arruda taken this morning while he was in line to receive his wellfare check.
Look at him displaying his The Corrupts associate card so proudly
Look at him displaying his The Corrupts associate card so proudly
Wow, it's all kicking off in here!
Ilori was a very good player at Sporting, who was improving on game basis and had potencial to evolve into an important first team player. But he choose not to renew and we had to sell him to Liverpool. His performances for Sporting were very encouraging and our previous board tried to convince him to stay but he had the objective of imediatly going to England. What impressed me about Ilori was his pace (holds the academy record for the 100 meters surpassing players like Ronaldo and Nani), man marking capability and technical ability. He also had a very decent passing range (saw his hollywood ball style assist for Granada the other days very impressive). His positioning was kinda suspect which is normal for an inexperienced young player but there was potencial for improvement under a good manager such as Rodgers.
I think he should have stayed at Sporting in order to improve or Liverpool should have loaned him instantly after purchasing Sakho. You can´t evolve if you don´t play or if you play at reserve team level competitions. Liverpool made the right move to loan him to Granada now but i haven´t been following his career there. Did Liverpool give a buying option to Granada?
No, this is wrong, and for what it's worth, if you watched the news, you'd probably know we will probably get our 6 points back. We just refrained from appealing to THAT court, have done to others. But again, you only read newspaper titles.
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In regards to your previous post, it merits no reply because it has no content, and it's not "the truth" just because you think so, or because others think so. Either way I can try. You won't understand, others perhaps will. (numbers pulled out of my arse)
7 million Sportinguistas and Benfiquistas will say Porto is "corrupt", owes it's success to it and nothing more. 3 million Portistas will refute that.
7 milllion Benfiquistas and Portistas will say Sporting is constantly benefited by refereeing because of their crying demeanor. 3 million Sportinguistas will refute that.
6 million Sportinguistas and Portistas will say that Benfica only got to where it is out of being favored by a fascist regime, and having all the political power on their side, not to mention most of the media. 4 million Benfiquistas will refute that.
Numbers don't add coherence to opinions. But if too many people scream that something is true for a long time, others will pick up on it and assume it's true. That's why I believed in God when I was a child. All of the above are seen as true by some group of people or another. Yet all are assumptions with no solid evidence to sustain it, the little you may find will have counter-evidence that is conveniently ignored. None of them can even be constituted as a "yes or no" scenario, just shades of gray. What you present as fact, is just a stereotype.
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And that picture you posted. God, are you 12 years old?
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Blah Blah Blah what a bunch of BS its like i said these The Corrupts associates live in denial they deny corruption like some people deny the holocaust ever happened, they forget that theres wire taps some of them available to hear on youtube showing proof of corruption they forget that there was a ref that was suspended and stopped reffing after he admitted he was corrupted by The Corrupts aka Porto who offered him gifts and prostitutes before a Porto match that he was the ref in exchange of him favoring them throughout the game.
These are facts the rest is you trying to cover their corrupted asses.
Even foreign observers know what went on.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/330214-fc-porto-leaked-phone-taps-proof-major-corruption-scandal
Now you can comeback with some long winded ass meaningless reply denying everything but we all know better than that and and you're not fooling anyone here.
Anyway back to the player
what do people think he would actually cost (surely we wont pay the full buybout clause up front)
£25M + 5 mil in addons (couple of mil based on games played couple of mil on league titles and a mil on European title)
anything more would seem excessive given his lack of top level games
or are we going to end up in a fellaini situation where we pay over the buyout clause?
what do people think he would actually cost (surely we wont pay the full buybout clause up front)
£25M + 5 mil in addons (couple of mil based on games played couple of mil on league titles and a mil on European title)
anything more would seem excessive given his lack of top level games
or are we going to end up in a fellaini situation where we pay over the buyout clause?
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