Just my opinion, if you disagree all good.
Will Bruno achieve legend status at utd?
- Thread starter simplyared
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He will become „the best player in the shittest period of Manchester United History”
A lot of the criticism Bruno gets is ridiculous - there are pundits who complain that he has a body language that is wrong for a captain etc - but he is a world-class player who has been surrounded by players who aren't good enough - or even worse players who don't work hard enough (like Sancho and Rashford), he has been surrounded by pundits who complain about everything, he has had to endure 4 different managers who failed to lift United to the top of the P.L
And while this has happened - Bruno has :
a) Worked his socks off in every single game
b) While his teammates have dropped like flies - Bruno has missed (I think it was) 8 games in 4.5 seasons
c) Have always stood tall and unlike many of his teammates - stayed at the club to help restore it to what it used to be
d) And in the process, produced 62 goals and 50 assists in 189 games in the league (or 95 goals and 96 assists in 279 matches) - I have found slightly different numbers on different sites, but in that region at least.
That is a goal or assists every 0.68 games - in comparison Rooney over his entire career at United as a striker had 253 goals and 146 assists in 559 matches. That is a goal or assist every 0.71 games - just marginally better than Bruno playing for a much better team.
And with these points in mind - it's impossible to argue that Bruno wont be a United-legend.
And Roy Keane who is the one whining the most about Bruno - lost his temper regularly and behaved as anything but a captain. And he did it in teams surrounded by world class players - if Keane had played for the United-sides Bruno have, he would have been sent off 3-4 times each season in frustration.
And while this has happened - Bruno has :
a) Worked his socks off in every single game
b) While his teammates have dropped like flies - Bruno has missed (I think it was) 8 games in 4.5 seasons
c) Have always stood tall and unlike many of his teammates - stayed at the club to help restore it to what it used to be
d) And in the process, produced 62 goals and 50 assists in 189 games in the league (or 95 goals and 96 assists in 279 matches) - I have found slightly different numbers on different sites, but in that region at least.
That is a goal or assists every 0.68 games - in comparison Rooney over his entire career at United as a striker had 253 goals and 146 assists in 559 matches. That is a goal or assist every 0.71 games - just marginally better than Bruno playing for a much better team.
And with these points in mind - it's impossible to argue that Bruno wont be a United-legend.
And Roy Keane who is the one whining the most about Bruno - lost his temper regularly and behaved as anything but a captain. And he did it in teams surrounded by world class players - if Keane had played for the United-sides Bruno have, he would have been sent off 3-4 times each season in frustration.
After 15 months, 400 plus posts and some ridiculously negative comments, looks like the opinion on the caf has taken a massive swing in Brunos favour.
Shouldn't have been the case but I knew the OP would get the haters going, and they certainly didn't disappoint.
For me it wasn't even up for discussion!
Escaped the lock and matured with time
Shouldn't have been the case but I knew the OP would get the haters going, and they certainly didn't disappoint.
For me it wasn't even up for discussion!
Escaped the lock and matured with time
Not only has he had to endure 4 different managers, he was 1st name on the team sheet for all 4 managers.
Each manager had a different playing philosophy, different types of players preferred but Bruno has always been a constant.
Regardless of what fans think of each manager, the fact that Bruno is always available and selected shows his quality.
Yes, easily, he is probably the one singular bight spark in the last decade.
His critics when we hired Amorim: "This is the end for Bruno! Rejoice! He simply cannot play in this system!"
Amorim last week (paraphrased): "I need Bruno to play no.10, no.8 and no.6!"
Amorim last week (paraphrased): "I need Bruno to play no.10, no.8 and no.6!"
Without a shadow of a doubt, he is the one signing in recent memory that actually lived up to the expectations of when we signed him, possibly even surpassing them expectations.
in true legend status no I don’t think so BUT if he can steer us a captain into a competitive team again whilst keeping HIS standards very high then I think he deserves to be recognised as a semi legend!
Agree with this.
Meaning that the first one is an actual quote?
Not even close to the shittest period in our history, football didn't begin 30 years ago
Compared to our current squad, sure. But the same could be said about O’Shea and Chicharito. Not sure what your point is anyway, as it’s universally acknowledged that Rooney went into a nosedive as a footballer after Ferguson left.
But Rooney did have one outrageous performance for DC United that ranks right up there with any performance after his ankle injury in 2006. He was possessed that night and created a chance out of nothing like no other that I’ve ever seen.
It is really hard to think of anyone who gets anywhere near in terms of consistency (appearances, goals and assists) in the post SAF era. DDG is a legend in my opinion but those final 3 or 4 years you could see a drop in quality from him.
100% he will
This will soon become a silly question. He's without a doubt a club legend.
His numbers don't lie. He's played in our worst period in recent memory and is always one of few players who gives it his all. I think at times we get caught up because he's the captain and every captain is compared to Keane and before my time, Robson. He's not a Robson or Keane when it comes to being a captain but very few ever were.
It isn't though, some perspective is needed here sometimes. We've not been where we want to be in terms of competing for the league but we've still won 5 trophies including a European one in the last 9 seasons.
Applies to a degree for Onana as well. To Dalot. To Maguire. Rashford. McTominay to a degree. All those guys were somewhat staples of the team. After all, we are a football team and goals are needed. All those managers failed to create good football teams. Them picking Bruno is a testiment for his availability, for his ability to produce even in dire situations. But apart from that, this point doesn't carry much value in my eyes. We aren't a good team. The overall level isn't great and none of Brunos team mates is noteworthy. Of course the one guy who is producing is getting picked. And we arent for quite some time. Bruno being head and shoulders above his team mates is great, but we know most of his team mates aren't much to begin with, so the angle doesn't really work to elevate Bruno above the points I made. (And imagine, most of you will have perceived that as me criticizing the player ^^)
We burned through a lot of money, we made ourselves a bit of laughing stock and a poster boy for how to not run a football club. And beginning with last year, 10 years of bad decisions finally resulted in results going downhill (even though the trends were indicating it for quite some time).
Perspective yes. It might not be the shittiest time the club ever experienced. But that doesn't make it less shit as it is. We all know it isn't an absolute state that is impossible to change, we are working on it, hopefully it will work out. But I don't see any point in sugarcoating.
This thread needs a poll
Yes but my point was as bad as we've been some seasons, especially last season and this one. 99% of clubs haven't won 5 trophies in the last 50 years never mind 9. So while yes we've generally been poor on and off the pitch, it could have been worse and it wasn't all bad.
No one (almost) becomes a legend when they still play, and becoming legend is more about the retroactive storytelling than about who deserves what.
For now, I think it’s interesting in Bruno’s case to note how for instance United have only six players the last 35 years to achieve above 50 goals and 50 assists in the league. Looking at the names and their ratio of goal involvements per game makes for a pretty impressive list:
1. Eric Cantona 115/143 = 0,80 GI/game!
2. Wayne Rooney 276/393 = 0,70
3. Bruno Fernandes 112/187 = 0,60
4. David Beckham 142/265 = 0,54
5. Paul Scholes 262/499 = 0,53
6. Ryan Giggs 271/672 = 0,40
If you were to factor in what percentage of the team goals a player was involved in, Bruno would come out even better.
For now, I think it’s interesting in Bruno’s case to note how for instance United have only six players the last 35 years to achieve above 50 goals and 50 assists in the league. Looking at the names and their ratio of goal involvements per game makes for a pretty impressive list:
1. Eric Cantona 115/143 = 0,80 GI/game!
2. Wayne Rooney 276/393 = 0,70
3. Bruno Fernandes 112/187 = 0,60
4. David Beckham 142/265 = 0,54
5. Paul Scholes 262/499 = 0,53
6. Ryan Giggs 271/672 = 0,40
If you were to factor in what percentage of the team goals a player was involved in, Bruno would come out even better.
Well, I guess, "it could have been worse" can be easily be said in any case and for any team. All you need is a bit of creativity and a healthy "glass half empty"-attitude. But yes, it could have been worse. Even though, and that is not at all in connection to Bruno or any of the managers or any other player specifically, I have to agree on what Ruben said in his early days. That trophies, sprinkled here and there, aren't a good indicator of moving in the right direction. I mean, for me personally, I think we moved into the wrong direction when we went away from LVG and moved to what couldn't be more of the polar opposite in Mourinho. Since then, all our rivals have taken leaps and are now way ahead of us. But those 2nd and 3rd places, EL, League Cup, FA Cup stuff events have blocked sight. There were just happy landmarks and distractions on a route that led to where we are now. Even if we win EL again this year, nobody will consider us a team on the rise, not even speaking of becoming a good team.
I wouldn't say so to be honest, even though I can see your point (I guess).
I think, achieving many goals in a team that is firing on many cylinders is more impressive because it takes more to stand out. Bruno has been the only noteworthy source of anything for quite some time now, without him, nothing happens, which obviously tells a story about his team mates but it also tells a story about how unfunctional of a team we are. Even if Bruno had half the goals and assists this season, talk would still mostly be the same in here, because he would still be well above his team mates.
When I think of legends its not just ability or leadership or raising the standards of those around you. He has all those. But you also need titles. Now it’s not his fault that the team as a whole has dropped in performances but I think he needs a CL or a PL title to nail his legend status. A Europa League title would be a nice start.
A minor monetary observation, but he has always been our best player the moment he has joined. Yet, we have seen players come in on much larger wages and done nothing in comparison to what he did. Amazing he is still not the highest earner at the club, yet busts a gut and puts up the stats that he does.
The post Fergie era has been dark, but he has come in where it's really come at it's worst point and still fights as if its his one and only club. He wont be a legend if the rest around him keep failing, however if they can pull their socks up and help get the club back to some form of glory, no one is more deserving of legendary status in this era.
The post Fergie era has been dark, but he has come in where it's really come at it's worst point and still fights as if its his one and only club. He wont be a legend if the rest around him keep failing, however if they can pull their socks up and help get the club back to some form of glory, no one is more deserving of legendary status in this era.
You wouldn’t say it’s more impressive getting 112 goals/assists in a team that doesn’t produce chances to score and doesn’t tuck away chances to make assists, than 112 goals assists in a team that produces chances and goals for fun? I find that hard to believe.
You don’t think it’s more impressive and downright unusual, in itself to score 35 league goals for Leicester or Las Palmas than to score 35 league goals for Manchester City or Real Madrid? Really?
I'm pretty sure a goal or assist every 0.68 games is better than the same every 0.71 games.
For me never, on 30+ years hes been most unlikeable player for me, that hand ball away to sociead summuries why i dislike him
Final straw for me was him telling Case (I think) how unlucky it was that the ball hit his hand. Well mayde he thought it was unlucky since he wasnt looking at the ball
I don't disagree mate, the last 2 years are a good example of winning trophies while going backwards. Ten Hag left the squad in a worse place than he found it. And while I have no problem with sacking managers we've hired the wrong managers at the wrong times and given them way too much power to shape the squad. In my opinion while I see your point about LVG, I personally he set us back quite a bit during his time too. While I could see he had a proper plan he was in the process of implementing he was given way too much leeway with selling players and in most cases replacing them with inferior players.
But yes we're off topic at this point so I'll leave it there.
Does he though? Would Robbo not have been a United legend if he hadn't have won the title in 93 as a squad player?
Not really, Onana was not there under Ole and Rangnick, so I am not sure you can say that about him.
Dalot was never used by Ole, again can't be said the same about him either, there was also a period under Ten Hag when he was fit and AWB was ahead of him. Same with Rashford, under Rangnick and Amorim, he wasn't playing...
Maguire and McTominay were dropped by Ten Hag.
When was Bruno ever dropped by any manager / Interim for more than one game?
No, a player who plays every game for every manager is not good apparently.. and is only selected because he is available... is a clear agenda.
I think a lot of the problems within this thread are caused by such a loose definition of the word "legend" - compounded by posters either liking Bruno or not liking him. It's got to the point of stats being pulled out to support or refute other people's opinions - yes, I know people like to be right on football forums, and people rarely admit they are wrong, but this thread has been constantly derailed by arguing about his best position, his assists, the number of passes he should have made but didn't, his gesturing during a game etc.
For me it is much more simple. Will Bruno's legacy stand the test of time? (Even the word "will" in the thread title invites conjecture that none of us have a clue about.) Best, Law, Charlton, Cantona, the Busby Babes, Sir Matt, Sir Alex - for me, those are club legends.
Robson, Keane, Scholes, Beckham, Ronaldo, Rooney, Solskjaer, Giggs - all winners in the greatest period of our club's history - also club legends. And yet we rarely throw Schmeichel, Irwin, Stam, Rio, Vidic, Neville into the mix.
I like Bruno. I think he is an excellent player and we would be much worse off without him. Will he be a legend? Who knows? Personally I doubt that he will be talked about in the same way as those players mentioned above.
For me it is much more simple. Will Bruno's legacy stand the test of time? (Even the word "will" in the thread title invites conjecture that none of us have a clue about.) Best, Law, Charlton, Cantona, the Busby Babes, Sir Matt, Sir Alex - for me, those are club legends.
Robson, Keane, Scholes, Beckham, Ronaldo, Rooney, Solskjaer, Giggs - all winners in the greatest period of our club's history - also club legends. And yet we rarely throw Schmeichel, Irwin, Stam, Rio, Vidic, Neville into the mix.
I like Bruno. I think he is an excellent player and we would be much worse off without him. Will he be a legend? Who knows? Personally I doubt that he will be talked about in the same way as those players mentioned above.
Again, I see your point, but I stand by it. In my perception, Manchester United started to channel everything through Bruno since Pogba was mostly out of the team. Since then, Bruno, not because he is bad or at fault or anything, it happened due to his team mates and managers giving him this responsibility, is the catalyst for the team. As it is pointed out so often: "everything good goes through him". For me, thats not a testiment of how good of a player he is (don't need to touch the extent of that for this point) but how dysfunctional the team is. One of the points that were criticized is that while Brunos individual numbers have been good to very good throughout the years, the team numbers have been dwindling. I think, we reached a point, where all his team mates expect something from him - so while he stepped up and produced even when the team got worse he did it with an amount of freedom (tactically, positionally), that I'd say is unusual, and with backing and appreciation of team mates and managers and fans who were all in need of goals.
Thats not me saying that achiving those numbers isn't very good, it is. But I think they come (to a degree, which's extent is obviously debatable) at the cost of something seeing the teams overall productivity decreasing. Not at Brunos fault, but because of dysfunctional elements and others not stepping up.
In terms of assists only, I think you are right. Obviously, you have bigger chance of reaping assists when you deliver passes to clinical team mates. But since we were talking goals and assists, I personally think it doesn't apply exactly the same.
Good points, I agree. Just to make sure: I don't think moving away from LVG was the issue because I share your opinion, I meant moving away from LVG and towards Mourinho.
I agree. Thats why I said it applies to a degree. I still think the argument in itself isn't as convincing as it appears to be. I'd totally agree with you had the team been firing on all cylinders but our team has been dysfunctional and lacks in key areas. Not even speaking of constant injury issues. So I see your point I just don't think it carries that much weight.
He wasn't because he was the sole source of goals and assists in our team. Since you need those in football, every manager will have to make sure to get those so most will pick the players able to deliver them even though those players might not be ideal fits for how the manager wants to play. If it is the only way to achieve something, you go for it. I mean, just look at the last few games, the matches mostly look exactly like they did under ETH or even Ole. We try to stay compact, we don't even attempt control of the ball and when we reach a certain point, we'll launch long balls into runners. It makes use of Brunos talent to do those. And for a long time it made use of Rashfords talent to convert those into goals or chances. Last few matches have seen individual moments to achieve goals and capitalizing on opposition errors. Thats all good and beggars can't be choosers but we need to finally make the next step.
edit: So to close that bow - yes, for the kind of football we played for the recent past, Bruno has been instrumental and will remain that. But that wasn't good football, for me personally it is football we HAVE TO move away from. Maybe thats why I see Bruno so differently than most others on here. He is the piece of tape that holds something kind of together what I probably would like to being shattered and rebuilt.
I am honestly not sure what those constant BS attempts are supposed to achieve. I think I make an effort to make clear that my points never can be interpreted as "Bruno is actually really bad, you guys just don't see it". Maybe if you think I suffer from an agenda, you should look at yourself as well
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No 100% mate I agree. The chopping and changing between managers with totally different styles has along with recruitment been two of the main issues holding us back post SAF.
So which one of you is Mo from Jo’burg? 
If Robson was a legend, then so too is Bruno. It's as simple as that.
Every Manager since Ole's departure, there are always the talks from the same quarters, that surely the new manager's style will spell the end of Bruno.
For me, he is already a legend in my eyes, always available, reliable,Captain hardworking and consistent. Once we hopefully win this year's Europa league, he will cement his status.
Becoming a legend at United is not that hard compared to some other top clubs.
Take Solskjaer legend at United, compare him Gareth Bale who won 5 Champions League at RM. I don’t really think Bale is considered a legend.
So yes. I think Bruno can become a legend. If win the league, or say CL, while he’s a regular starter. The 100%.
Take Solskjaer legend at United, compare him Gareth Bale who won 5 Champions League at RM. I don’t really think Bale is considered a legend.
So yes. I think Bruno can become a legend. If win the league, or say CL, while he’s a regular starter. The 100%.
But under Amorim we no longer see the Bruno that used to just shoot & play Hollywood balls. In fact the performance vs Sociodad was top tier attacking midfielder play. If he plays like that more often he’d be one of the best in Europe.