When I say talk I don't mean one man making one post I've never read. It's not really a discussion if you're the only one saying it. Wanting a player playing at much lower lever of football, evidenced by the dreadful starts the newly promoted teams have had, is as stupid as basing that opinion on pre season. Thanks for drawing our attention to your idiocy.
Wilfried Zaha - Sold to Crystal Palace
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
- Status
He was crap in his last two preseason games. His selection in the Charity Shield shows he's at least in Moyes' immediate thoughts, but the Wembley performance was so forgettable he played himself out of selection on Saturday.
If he'd continued on his form from the Far East, I think he'd have got at least got 30 minutes.
If he'd continued on his form from the Far East, I think he'd have got at least got 30 minutes.
He was never going to start the first game of the season no matter how good or crap of a pre-season he had.
He was never starting both him and Jones away from home on the same flank imo
If he'd scored a hattrick in every game and dominated the matches against Wigan and Seville, I'm sure Moyes would have had him in his thoughts. It's ridiculous to think he wouldn't.
That's fair. Although I did say I only thought he might get 30 minutes.
I guess SAF was an idiot for spending £15m on him considering that it's apparently impossible to gauge how good a player is unless they're playing in the Premier League.
He's probably bought him on the promise he'll be a player for the future. Did Alex Ferguson say he bought him as first choice? I guess he was an idiot for picking Valencia regularly. I guess Moyes is too.
Our performance yesterday justified his exclusion
His time will come
His time will come
How can anyone perceive of such promise when all he's played is Championship football which apparently cannot be used to gauge a player's ability?
It's not sufficient to make them automatic starters. Seems Moyes agrees. Shit one.
I didn't say ridiculous he'll challenge. I mean the incredulous attitude some posters have towards the notion that Zaha may start. I'm a big Tony fan, Nani too. Of course he's not instantly first choice. He is, however, instantly an option as first choice. Not purely on the back of our pre-season but that did highlight the potential threat he offers. Nobody could have watched the contribution of our widemen last year and considered their starting positions secure this time round.
I'd say that's about right, and in my opinion Toni was actually looking much more confident. Even if Valencia has a fantastic season and gets back to the top of his game, I see no reason why Wilf won't get plenty of pitch time. We can't play AV25 in every match.
Who's said anything about him being an automatic starter?
There's a difference between a player providing strong competition for a first team spot and him being first name on the team sheet.
Don't worry about that though, keep attacking the straw man.
Replace automatic for first choice if you like.Who's said anything about him being an automatic starter?
We don't have any first choice wingers right now; if by first choice you mean automatic starter, which in your own words you do.
Zaha has as much chance as any of the other three of having a positive impact on our season. Keep pretending that I'm saying he should start every game if you want though.
Automatic was the wrong choice of phrase. Though it's not far off as first choice is somebody who will play he vast manority of games when avaialble. You seem a bit confused about your opinion on this. I said the talk of him being first choice started after some good pre season games and you said you were saying it months ago. Now we don't have first choice wingers. So you were you saying it or were you not?
Got to say I was surprised he didn't get any time at all yesterday.
I said he's good enough to be first choice, especially so if Valencia doesn't up his game; I've never said he should have an automatic first team spot. Discussion on this started months ago rather than just in preseason.
He may well be good enough but that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about people saying he should be. He shouldn't until he's proved it and for he time being he isn't. I'm sure he'll play games but Valencia fitness withstanding will play more because for the time being he's a better player.
Do you think Juventus made a good decision in putting Paul Pogba into their first team midfield (37 games for Juve last session) despite him having no experience whatsoever aside from Manchester United reserves?
Is Paul Pogba the same person as Wilfried Zaha? Does one player being a success equate to another doing the same? It's an irrelevant question. The point being made was a great number of people were insistent he should be first choice and starting the first game ahead of Valencia because he was good in pre season. For the time being our manager clearly thinks different.
The point is that Juventus saw Pogba as being first team starter material despite him only playing reserve football his entire career, and they were right. Likewise Dortmund were right in throwing Kagawa into their first team despite him only having previously played in Japan's second tier. Yet somehow you find it ridiculous that somebody might think Zaha ready for the same having only thus far seen him play in the Championship.
You've no idea what our manager thinks.
Those teams will have seen the player in training before they were selected for the first team and know whether they are better than the players they have so they have a little more to go on than we do. Saying Zaha is already better than Valencia, which some morons were, based on what Zaha has done is stupid. Put Valencia in the Championship and he would destroy those teams.
I know the team he selected yesterday and saw who was in it. Just as I predicted weeks ago, Valencia started ahead of Zaha. And he'll do the same next week.
So you cannot feasibly judge the ability of a player from 143 games of competitive second tier football, yet a few training sessions after a summer signing and, yeah, that's enough?
You're talking through your arse.
You can't really judge if they're better than a player who's played for Utd's first team for four years. I doibt you, anyone else om this forum who said he should start the season or those who signed him watched him 143 times. Had he played at a similar level you might have a point. Unfortunately you don't. Facts are come the start of the season it's Valencia in the team and not Zaha.
Not surprised that he didn't start at all against swansea, though slightly disappointed that we didn't chuck him on for the last ten minutes or so after we went 4-1 up. Would have been a good chance to get some more minutes under his belt.
Some talk out there that he apparently asks for the number 7 shirt, but the club rejected it citing that the number has already been kept for another player. Whether it's for an incoming one or a current player already at the club nobody knows for certain. Thought it's an interesting rumour as i'll just post it out here
We didn't get the fourth till the 90th minute, and at 3-1 Swansea were still looking dangerous. The fact it was Anderson who came on for Persie and not Zaha or Januzaj shows us how serious Moyes is about those points.
i would probably give him an appearance after we got that 3rd goal. his time will come obviously but it was a wise decision by moyes to go for valencia's experience for an away game.
Perhaps you can't really judge such things. Other people are certainly able to.
Of course I haven't watched all 143 of Zaha's outings for Palace in full, but I watch The Football League Show every week and have thus seen quite a lot of him over the years. I've seen him play in perhaps ten full matches prior to our preseason tour.
If such an assessment cannot feasibly be made based on Championship level football then how can you explain Pogba at Juventus and Kagawa at Dortmund being given first team berths based on nothing but reserve team football and the Japanese second tier respectively? You say teams are able to judge players' comparative abilities from a handful of training sessions but not by watching how they play in actual competitive games... well that's horseshit.
thought it was earlier than that, must have been 3-1 still when I was hoping for him to come on for a short cameo.
Very cautious from Moyes, but certainly understandable. He probably won't be quite as good at getting everyone game time as Fergie.
They have both to go on. Since when was a full pre season a handful of training sessions? Those players were signed cheap and when given their chance they took it.
We have both to go on with Zaha then, a full pre-season with United and three full seasons of Championship football; it was you who mentioned training sessions. According to you it's inconceivable to suggest that Zaha is first team material based on such evidence, yet above you seem to be suggesting that pre-season + some reserve team or J2 League football was enough to convince Juventus and Dortmund of Paul Pogba and Shinji Kagawa's suitability. You can't have it both ways; either it was ridiculous of Juve and Dortmund to throw Pogba and Kagawa in at the deep end or it isn't ridiculous to suggest that United might do the same with Wilfried Zaha.
It would be ridiculous to assume it before they joined the club. I doubt either signed them with the idea of throwing them straight in. Ultimately the only point to remember is that when the real thing started it was Valencia in the team and not Zaha.
That's certainly the only point to remember if you wish to present an insincere argument. You and I both know that the Matchday#1 team sheet isn't necessarily representative of any season long starting XI. The fact that Moyes started Valencia against Swansea is not proof that the manager doesn't think the youngster himself already capable of being a regular starter.
Your faith in the ability to judge footballers is extremely lacking if you find the notion of recognising top class ability in a young player despite him not necessarily having yet played in the top tier as being worthy of ridicule. As I mentioned above, it's your own shortcoming if you're not able to assess the ability of such players relative to a higher division; don't just assume that others share this same ignorance.
My point was always that Zaha wouldn't come in and instantly displace Valencia and he hasn't. I never ridiculed the notion that he may become a better player just that he already was. You seem to have misunderstood that. Moyes must also be ignorant despite knowing more about both players than either of us.
Can someone please PM me when this never ending debate between ciderman90210 and the people who don't think Zaha has enough experience ends. Thanks.
This Zaha chap is quite good, and looks remarkably like Valencia...
- Status