Wilfried Zaha - Sold to Crystal Palace

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Ducklegs said:
I didn't say he wasn't or isn't.
What I said was, transferred players are bought because we want them, that's our problem, not theirs.

The player has had a couple of months at United before the worst manager in living memory decided to ship him out to a relegated side with a rookie manager, I don't think anyone can make an objective judgment on his long term prospects based on that.
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You're completely ignoring the fact that Holloway, OGS and Pearce (England u/21) have all alluded to an attitude problem. Do you remember that he turned up late for a reserve game? A game where he could have shown what he could do, and maybe given himself a chance of a first team start?

Moyes is just an easy target, someone to blame for everyone else's failings. Cardiff were nowhere near relegated when Zaha went there, and OGS has had oceans of experience with Utd as a player quite apart from having managed a team to the Norwegian title.

Everyone else's fault but Zaha's.
 
Rednotdead said:
You're completely ignoring the fact that Holloway, OGS and Pearce (England u/21) have all alluded to an attitude problem. Do you remember that he turned up late for a reserve game? A game where he could have shown what he could do, and maybe given himself a chance of a first team start?

Moyes is just an easy target, someone to blame for everyone else's failings. Cardiff were nowhere near relegated when Zaha went there, and OGS has had oceans of experience with Utd as a player quite apart from having managed a team to the Norwegian title.

Everyone else's fault but Zaha's.
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So what..... His young and talant as f@&k don't know so many are encourage him to fail. We should be hoping that he has a bright new start under LVG.
 
Rednotdead said:
You're completely ignoring the fact that Holloway, OGS and Pearce (England u/21) have all alluded to an attitude problem. Do you remember that he turned up late for a reserve game? A game where he could have shown what he could do, and maybe given himself a chance of a first team start?

Moyes is just an easy target, someone to blame for everyone else's failings. Cardiff were nowhere near relegated when Zaha went there, and OGS has had oceans of experience with Utd as a player quite apart from having managed a team to the Norwegian title.

Everyone else's fault but Zaha's.
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I'm not ignoring any facts, because the points you raise don't apply to this particular issue.

That being, clubs don't buy players to "earn" their place in the team, they buy players (for that amount of money anyhow) to play.
If his attitude stinks you have to ask why, why does a player who has enough about him to be pretty decent have this terrible attitude in less than his first season at the club?
 
Ducklegs said:
I'm not ignoring any facts, because the points you raise don't apply to this particular issue.

That being, clubs don't buy players to "earn" their place in the team, they buy players (for that amount of money anyhow) to play.
If his attitude stinks you have to ask why, why does a player who has enough about him to be pretty decent have this terrible attitude in less than his first season at the club?
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Yes, you should ask yourself why. Why would a young player who has just signed for one of the biggest clubs in the world not knuckle down and learn everything there is to learn about his trade, rather than sulk about not being given an automatic place in the first team. Why would that same player sulk about being sent to a competition with the England u/21 team because he thinks he should be with the senior squad on tour in Brazil last summer? Why would his previous manager allude to an attitude problem? Why would he turn up late for a reserve game when it was a clear chance to impress?

It matters not how much he was bought for, nobody has an automatic right to a first team place. They still have to justify being given that place. Do you think he wasn't selected just because somebody didn't like him? Of course not, he wasn't selected because he didn't show enough in training to justify selection.
 
I will be absolutely astonished if he makes it here, or at any decent level for that matter. Never, ever, got the hype around him at Palace. Matt Philips and Tom Ince often outperformed him in the Championship and, ya know, neither of them are that good.

He often flattered to deceive, even at that level. He was all pace and tricks (attempted anyway), usually with little substance or end-product.
 
Rednotdead said:
Yes, you should ask yourself why. Why would a young player who has just signed for one of the biggest clubs in the world not knuckle down and learn everything there is to learn about his trade, rather than sulk about not being given an automatic place in the first team. Why would that same player sulk about being sent to a competition with the England u/21 team because he thinks he should be with the senior squad on tour in Brazil last summer? Why would his previous manager allude to an attitude problem? Why would he turn up late for a reserve game when it was a clear chance to impress?

It matters not how much he was bought for, nobody has an automatic right to a first team place. They still have to justify being given that place. Do you think he wasn't selected just because somebody didn't like him? Of course not, he wasn't selected because he didn't show enough in training to justify selection.
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Why wouldn't Cantona play a reserve / practice game for Sheffield Wednesday..
Some players just don't pay by the rules most of us would given the same opportunities... Zaha has bags of potential so I hope we loan him out this year as if he does not perform his value won't drop much more than it has and if he plays well / regular we either get our money back or have a talented young player to come back.
Loam him to Sunderland as it did wonders for Welbeck and might make him see that he had the same opportunity
 
Rednotdead said:
You're completely ignoring the fact that Holloway, OGS and Pearce (England u/21) have all alluded to an attitude problem. Do you remember that he turned up late for a reserve game? A game where he could have shown what he could do, and maybe given himself a chance of a first team start?

Moyes is just an easy target, someone to blame for everyone else's failings. Cardiff were nowhere near relegated when Zaha went there, and OGS has had oceans of experience with Utd as a player quite apart from having managed a team to the Norwegian title.

Everyone else's fault but Zaha's.
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With all due respect, none of those guys had a clue about managing. Zaha had never been managed by a top manager. And I love OGS as a player.

Btw wasn't Solskjaer the one to say he never saw as much talent in a player since Cristiano Ronaldo? (In regards to Zaha)
 
jason93 said:
With all due respect, none of those guys had a clue about managing. Zaha had never been managed by a top manager. And I love OGS as a player.

Btw wasn't Solskjaer the one to say he never saw as much talent in a player since Cristiano Ronaldo? (In regards to Zaha)
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Sure, he's got talent but he definitely has an attitude problem.
 
He's further proof that talent, without application and attitude is basically worthless.

See Morrison, Ravel for another example
 
Robbie Boy said:
I will be absolutely astonished if he makes it here, or at any decent level for that matter. Never, ever, got the hype around him at Palace. Matt Philips and Tom Ince often outperformed him in the Championship and, ya know, neither of them are that good.

He often flattered to deceive, even at that level. He was all pace and tricks (attempted anyway), usually with little substance or end-product.
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I agree. Zaha was/is largely pace and strength (pace and strength which a good number of Premier League defenders can match.)
That was largely what made him a handful. The actual consistency in touch or dribble (which is supposed to be his strong point) isn't at Ince's level, let alone Sterling's. It's not a case of beating men and then showing immaturity to try to beat another man or holding the ball for too long. He's barely even beating a man first.

When he's gathered pace with the ball, he's definitely hard to knock off it. But he's not so good from a standing position - which is needed as a wide player at a top club. He had his moments at Palace. But most have heard (or seen) that he wasn't consistent over the season.
He's more comparable with Bolasie than the better English talents, in my opinion.

Even if we'd loaned him back to Palace last year I believe he'd have had a poor season. He'd have struggled with the step up in quality. He'd have had a few moments of magic (then again, who doesn't over a 38 game season?) and people would have used it as proof that he's class. But I don't think United (or any manager) are to blame. He's just not that good, aside from his mentality.

No point selling him now, but loan him out again (i'd push for Aston Villa), and if he struggles to show anything - sell him next year.
 
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jason93 said:
Bebe is actually good now.
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He got a few goals for relegation candidates in the Portuguese league and will probably end up as a bench warmer for 2 seasons at Benfica before being sold to a mid-table club in Portugal... wouldn't call that "good" in any context relevant to Man Utd.
 
Rednotdead said:
I suppose it's handy to blame everyone but Zaha himself for his failures. Not just here, at Cardiff too.
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He's hardly been given a chance.

Like I said before, have you observed training? No you haven't.

You seem to think our previous coaching regime was pretty good, I disagree. Zaha might become a flop or he might not, let Louis van Gaal decide instead of shipping him out because Moyes didn't rate him.
 
Could Van Gaal look to utilise his pace in some sort of Robben-type role in the team? Give him a lot of responsibility in the first team and see how he responds?
 
Antisocial said:
Could Van Gaal look to utilise his pace in some sort of Robben-type role in the team? Give him a lot of responsibility in the first team and see how he responds?
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Could he? I suppose he could. Will he? God no.
 
Empire said:
He's hardly been given a chance.

Like I said before, have you observed training? No you haven't.

You seem to think our previous coaching regime was pretty good, I disagree. Zaha might become a flop or he might not, let Louis van Gaal decide instead of shipping him out because Moyes didn't rate him.
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No, I haven't observed training. Can you explain then ,why Januzaj was given a chance but Zaha wasn't?

I don't have any opinion on our previous coaching regime. You seem to be able to form an opinion on them though, on what basis is that opinion formed? Do you think they're all completely clueless idiots who have no idea whatsoever about coaching? Can you explain why they had relative success at Everton if they're no good?

He hasn't been given a chance because he hasn't justified being given a chance. If he had justified it do you think he would have been denied a first team place just for the sake of it?
 
Januzaj was given a chance because he was our best young player who plays wide. He's something special, Zaha is not. That doesn't mean he can't be given a chance and can't become a first teamer. Lawrence was given a chance and he's not special either
 
Antisocial said:
Could Van Gaal look to utilise his pace in some sort of Robben-type role in the team? Give him a lot of responsibility in the first team and see how he responds?
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Did Cardiff not give him responsibility in the first team?

Manchester United's first team is not the place to throw somebody in just to see if they're good enough. That's what the reserve team is for. Premier League points are far too valuable to be effectively playing a "trialist".
 
Rednotdead said:
No, I haven't observed training. Can you explain then ,why Januzaj was given a chance but Zaha wasn't?

I don't have any opinion on our previous coaching regime. You seem to be able to form an opinion on them though, on what basis is that opinion formed? Do you think they're all completely clueless idiots who have no idea whatsoever about coaching? Can you explain why they had relative success at Everton if they're no good?

He hasn't been given a chance because he hasn't justified being given a chance. If he had justified it do you think he would have been denied a first team place just for the sake of it?
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Exactly. Januzaj clearly impressed in training or he wouldn't have been given a chance. Zaha evidently didn't.
 
mancan92 said:
Wow so one season under a two poor managers and all of a sudden he is crap and not ever going to be good enough?

Only on the caf.
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Never thought he was very good in the first place, personally.
 
Ekeke said:
Januzaj was given a chance because he was our best young player who plays wide. He's something special, Zaha is not. That doesn't mean he can't be given a chance and can't become a first teamer. Lawrence was given a chance and he's not special either
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Well, yes - the coaching staff decided Januzaj was good enough to justify giving him a chance in the first team. They decided Zaha wasn't good enough.

Why are people who have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of what goes on in training implying they know better than the coaching staff who saw him every day in training? He simply didn't justify a place in the team.
 
Rednotdead said:
Well, yes - the coaching staff decided Januzaj was good enough to justify giving him a chance in the first team. They decided Zaha wasn't good enough.

Why are people who have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of what goes on in training implying they know better than the coaching staff who saw him every day in training? He simply didn't justify a place in the team.
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Well if you watch england u21 training, he seems to be Sterlings level. xD; I think the lad has lots of potential, he needs the right manager, and needs to be focused.
 
mancan92 said:
Wow so one season under a two poor managers and all of a sudden he is crap and not ever going to be good enough?

Only on the caf.
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My sole argument is that the coaching staff who saw him every day decided he didn't justify a starting place in the first team, yet some on here who have no knowledge of what went on are questioning that judgment.
 
Rednotdead said:
Did Cardiff not give him responsibility in the first team?

Manchester United's first team is not the place to throw somebody in just to see if they're good enough. That's what the reserve team is for. Premier League points are far too valuable to be effectively playing a "trialist".
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The Cardiff point is a good one - not much faith we can take from that whole experience.

For me it is his pace that has made him stand-out to the extent that he got his move here; if we can't use that in an attack as slow as ours, then there isn't much hope I can see tbh.
 
Rednotdead said:
My sole argument is that the coaching staff who saw him every day decided he didn't justify a starting place in the first team, yet some on here who have no knowledge of what went on are questioning that judgment.
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But that doesn't mean he isn't good enough. We've seen a full squad of players look like half as good as they should simply down to poor management so I don't see why zaha should be judged so harshly. He clearly has ability and potential. How much? We don't know yet and there's no way we can after a season like that.
 
He's got to learn not to take so many touches when he gets the ball. You can get away with that in the Championship, but not in the prem.

When I watched him at Palace, he had a knack of running at people and they would tackle him, but the ball still somehow wriggled out with him due to his strength. I want to see if that was a fluke or a strength. Suarez annoyingly always managed to do that.

There wasn't a huge gulf in class between him and Bolasie either. He was a better player, but not by a huge margin.
 
mancan92 said:
Wow so one season under a two poor managers and all of a sudden he is crap and not ever going to be good enough?

Only on the caf.
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Yea, it's never his fault but Ole's, man who's worked wonders with our reserves and youth players but he was too shit to make Zaha look like a proper player.

Poor Wilf, we should send him to Madrid or Munich to make sure that he's not mistreated again.
 
Solskjaer's Cardiff were a mess in the 2nd half of the season. It doesn't explain away Zaha's majority ineffective performances for them, but the rest of the team and other young talents like Daehli didn't look much better. Zaha could certainly have shown more than he did
 
Moyes gave debuts to Rooney, Barkley and others. If he was good enough, and determined enough, Moyes would have gone with him, like he did with Januzaj. I'd understand if it was just Moyes who didn't play him after all the trouble with his daughter, but for a player of his quality to not got picked at a relegation side must obviously indicate a lack of enthusiasm?

He is immensely talented, I can't believe people are doubting that, but he will never be Ronaldo because of his attitude.
 
Speak said:
Never thought he was very good in the first place, personally.
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This place really is hilarious. It's not as if people, like me, yourself, and plenty of others didn't rate nor want Zaha before be joined. So, if anyone doesn't rate him, it's obviously only because of last season; lets not forget, he looked like a world beater before that.
 
Kostur said:
Yea, it's never his fault but Ole's, man who's worked wonders with our reserves and youth players but he was too shit to make Zaha look like a proper player.

Poor Wilf, we should send him to Madrid or Munich to make sure that he's not mistreated again.
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Whatever these are really strawman arguments. He was part of two teams who were a complete mess. Both weren't his fault. If you never thought he was good then Fair enough but that in itself is silly as it was clear to anyone who has watched him that he has some ability and clearly something about him mentally. But whatever these arguments against him are weak because none of us have enough evidence either way so let's wait before passing judgement eh?
 
mancan92 said:
Whatever these are really strawman arguments. He was part of two teams who were a complete mess. Both weren't his fault. If you never thought he was good then Fair enough but that in itself is silly as it was clear to anyone who has watched him that he has some ability and clearly something about him mentally. But whatever these arguments against him are weak because none of us have enough evidence either way so let's wait before passing judgement eh?
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I'm not crossing him off, so you don't understand me wrong, and I think he should be given a chance under LVG but to claim that he was under two 'poor' manager's is just wrong. We all can agree that Moyes and his circus was not player-friendly at any point but same thing can't be said about Ole.
 
Kostur said:
I'm not crossing him off, so you don't understand me wrong, and I think he should be given a chance under LVG but to claim that he was under two 'poor' manager's is just wrong. We all can agree that Moyes and his circus was not player-friendly at any point but same thing can't be said about Ole.
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But Cardiff was also a circus and lacked any kind of team spirit of style of play the same way we did. I don't think ole is poor but his performance at Cardiff was particularly poor.
 
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