How many players are anywhere near the finished article even at 21?
Wilfried Zaha - Sold to Crystal Palace
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How many players are anywhere near the finished article even at 21?
I am not talking about the finished article, I am talking about players who are atleast already at an acceptable level. A work in progress of say 70-80% completion not of 40-50% (not that you can quanitfy it, but just to give an idea about what I'am talking about). Feels like Zaha is way of being on an acceptable level, if he can't even do a decent job at Cardiff. Seems like he has a real long way to go, and when that is the case on your 21, chance is high you'll never be a real top player. There plenty of players of 21 or far younger who show alot more maturity in their game than Zaha.
He can become an acceptable player in a few years, if we loan him out to the right clubs and are patient with him, give him some games in the first team, but I just don't see him putting the world on fire anytime soon. We have enough players with potential, alot more potential then him and also players who have more years ahead of them to develop it. When we bought Zaha and paid £15m I thought he was going to be a player ready for first team action, not yet an immediate star player, but somebody who has the potential to become one. However if he can't even get a game at Cardiff because he lacks quality and maturity in his game than I fear this is a guy who won't pay off whatever kind of work we'll put in him. Not the kind of player I want to have around right now and basically if we can cut our loses, I'd rather do it sooner than latter. I have had it with these lads that have potential but were it just never comes off. If he is good enough, he doesn't have to be the finished article to get a game over Young and Valencia, but he is so far off Moyes doesn't trust him to play first team football and at Cardiff, were people were saying Solskjaer would have an inspirational effect on him it also isn't coming off. I fear we have put our money on the wrong player again and I'd rather we cut him lose than keep him for the next 3 years, only to have to say at the end of those years that we should have gotten rid way earlier.
Fair enough if you see it this way, I hope you're correct. But personally I've seen very little that indicates he has the potential some claim he possesses. The Championship success doesn't impress me, Adel Taraabt carried QPR to the top flight as well yet was ineffective at this level. It's wrong to dismiss the Championship entirely, but I also don't think it's worth much as an indicator of EPL success.
Then we come to pre-season, where yes he looked decent against the most mediocre of opposition but still decidedly third best behind Zaha and Lingard, forget the rest of the first team.
Then we come to this season, where admittedly he has had essentially zero playing time at United. Given his performances for Cardiff thus far, it's much more reasonable to conclude that Moyes felt the kid was an inferior option to our other options in attack (though its more fun to go with the Lauren Moyes story
). Then there's his loan spell at Cardiff, in which he has largely underwhelmed at the worst team in the division.
This amid numerous stories of poor lifestyle, unprofessional attitude and so on.
Yes, Zaha can do stepovers and a few other tricks. Sometimes he even beats his man. But his final ball is lacking, his ability to beat a defender is very inconsistent, he has no positional discipline to speak of, his passing is horrendous and his attitude would seem petulant at best. I'm not sure what in all this is supposed to have me thinking he's a future star for Manchester United.
1.You've made this up. Show me where Solskjaer said this. Daehli, a highly praised young player and former United youth member has also been reduced to sub appearances and hasn't made much of a difference. His only goal so far came from a move that Zaha started (WBA 3-3).
2. Nothing is coming off at Cardiff for anyone. Cardiff is a sinking ship that no one could've saved. They have a lot of problems starting from the owner himself.
You may be right about Zaha eventually but a lot of what has been said is nothing short of guesswork. He deserves at least another season on loan at another PL club IMO. And the thing about Young and Valencia, they get games over Nani when fit and Kagawa....so what point does that make really?
In my view Zaha has not shown many signs of the potential that SAF paid £15 million for, and understandably many would argue that United this season and especially Cardiff are not the places to give a player like Zaha the chance to shine at this stage in his career.
But then Januzaj has burst onto the scene in a big way this season, it is early days for him, but so far he appears to be taking his chance in a way that I expected Zaha to.
If the rumours are correct, there is a massive difference in the lifestyle and attitude of these two players, and at such a young age that will have an effect, I recall Lee Sharpes early days, he looked a better prospect than Giggs, the approach to training, lifestyle and general attitude was very different, we know how that turned out.
I thought Cardiff was his chance to show United why he cost £15 million, and I thought we would be calling for his return, but it hasn't worked out that way.
Clearly a loan somewher better than Cardiff would be good for him, but where does he fit into Uniteds plans in the next few years.
But then Januzaj has burst onto the scene in a big way this season, it is early days for him, but so far he appears to be taking his chance in a way that I expected Zaha to.
If the rumours are correct, there is a massive difference in the lifestyle and attitude of these two players, and at such a young age that will have an effect, I recall Lee Sharpes early days, he looked a better prospect than Giggs, the approach to training, lifestyle and general attitude was very different, we know how that turned out.
I thought Cardiff was his chance to show United why he cost £15 million, and I thought we would be calling for his return, but it hasn't worked out that way.
Clearly a loan somewher better than Cardiff would be good for him, but where does he fit into Uniteds plans in the next few years.
There's no point speculating on rumors. Show me a picture of him smoking or out with the boys clubbing in the middle of the season. As you so well put it, Cardiff is not exactly the best place for anyone (even Ole) to try and make any kind of impact. I think a season long loan term will give us a better assessment of his progress in this league.
A full preseason and a fresh start, not a struggling team gasping for air in January. Or better yet, let him play in the Europa league group stages and in the League cup with the occasional PL app depending on progress. He does possess a few qualities that we could really do with, pace and trickery. I'd be damned if United spent that much on him only to give up this soon.
I wasnt actually referring to drinking, clubbing and smoking, but seeing as you asked :
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I don't make this shit up, many have observed it and stated it. The critics have always been the same, he doesn't work hard enough, he just strolls around looking uninterested, his confidence seems fragile and his overal game is based on step overs and other technical poeha that doesn't come off and is uneffective. (http://metro.co.uk/2014/04/07/send-...n-the-first-train-back-to-manchester-4690234/)
You say Nani and kagawa don't get games over Young and Valencia and that is true, but Nani has had his injurry and Kagawa has a history off being very uneffective on the wings, now that he can link up with Mata it is improving but he is not a natural on that position. Zaha is a real winger and when he was anything near as good as we thought he was when we wasted £15m on him he would have gotten his chances in this United side. The fact he didn't shows something was terrible wrong, alot of people thought it was Moyes making the wrong decisions but looking at his performances in Cardiff and the critics he is getting and his lack of game time there aswell suggests the problem iswith Zaha himself.
It may be that nothing is coming off at Cardiff and that the same is true at United and the boy is struggling with this. I also think he would be a far better player when everything around him was working like clockwork, but we aren't in that situation right now and might not be in that situation for a couple of years. If he can't deal with these troubles and he doesn't have the discipline or the desire to do something about it than we really shouldn't even bother with him.
He has been terrible on his loan, simple as that. Sure we might loan him out next season to another team and hope that it works better for him, small improvements will be made no doubt. But Zaha is no use for us if he can't become a first team winger with the right mentality. What I have seen from Zaha this year, he is so far off, it isn't even funny anymore and for a 21 year old, really disappointing he isn't already much further in his development.
I don't think Zaha will ever be a regular first team player for us that will get the OT crowd chanting his name because he is putting in worldclass performances and goals that will lead us to silverware. I don't see it him. He has the same talent set as Ronaldo but unlike Ronaldo he doesn't seem like a guy with his head screwed on well and doesn't seem like a guy who is determined to become the best in the world and wants to work hard for that and train like a beast. I'am not saying he has to become Ronaldo to be a good player, as that is one out of a million, but this guy just looks unprofessional and I don't think he'll ever make it at this club.
I guess United are to blame them, for signing him without proper scouting and investigation into his professionalism. All these things have to be taken into account and passed in levels before a final decision is made to purchase a player. If they deemed him fit and saw no problem in paying 15 Million for him then they have to try and get the best out of him. He needs another loan term or a fresh season (next season David Moyes starts anew and they'll be no excuses for him and anyone else, including Fellaini) with the first team. You just don't cut your losses this early on a 21 year old with potential. I dont even rate Fellaini at all but the piece of crap at least deserves another season too.
The bit missing here is that players develop at different rates in 3 different areas, technical, physical and emotional. That keeps going along an entire career but more rapidly in the early stages. You may have the physical and technical building blocks in place but if the emotional side is struggling things can be slowed. By Emotional i dont mean if he is happy or not although this is a part of that but more the maturity and understanding side of things. Ole stated that they need to "teach Wilf how to defend" which indicates to me that parts of his game are not yet fully developed. At 21 with just 1 season with us and half of it on loan its far too early to be writing him off.
Also he has joined a side during the clubs most difficult period in decades and then went on loan to a manager new to the EPL and to a team which is seriously flawed and will be relegated. Not an easy couple of factors for him to cope with.
He's 21 already, on loan at Cardiff, and not doing well there. That's not the profile of a player with a future Old Trafford career. He is running out of time and will do well to turn it around from here.
He does?
21 which gives him plenty of time, starting a career in the EPL at a team where he was the new boy, had a new coach and the club going through its most difficult time in decades. Then he gets loaned out to a relegation struggling team with a new manager who is managing at EPL level for the first time. Its not been an easy beginning to this phase of his playing career but he has plenty of time.
You get exactly what you paid for with Fellaini, unfortunatley he is not the kind of player we needed in this team. We know he can do alot better and given time he'll do beter no doubt, he may even end up a valuable squad player, but he'll never be worth the £27.5M we paid for him. Had we paid less, the sentiment about him would be calmer but the end result would still be that he isn't really the kind of player this club needs.
Zaha however can't even do a job for us, we have no use for him at all, not even as a squad player, because he lacks a vital qualities to be a real good professional footballer. It is not that he isn't the kind of footballer we need, we need a technical winger with pace, it is just that the guy on age 21 looks so mentally fragile he'll never become a top player, for any kind of club. The problem with Zaha isn't that he needs more game time or some more training but an entire new attitude to start realising his potential. ofcourse if you invest time and effort in a player you can start to change this attitude but given the situation of Zaha, I don't know if his talent is worth the investment, definitley given the situation the club is in, we have bigger fish to fry than to concern ourselves with this.
I would offload Zaha if I could get half of his transfer fee back this summer. If you deffer it, we won't get back that kind of cash and it will be worth less than if we get it now anyhow. Also he isn't worth the investment of time and effort, we should be directing that to other players who deserve it more and can deliver more for it.
What you say about this being Uniteds fault is exactly true. However it is not because at some stage we were thinking this lad had what it takes that we should stick by that if he is clearly shows that thinking was erronous. It is the same kind of mistake United have made over and over and over again the last couple of years and I'am tired and sick of it. I'am willing to give certain players a bit a slack, because they showed their value elsewhere and it is not just promissed potential you are investing in but a real professional footballer, but I'am tired with this overhyped english potential world stars, that in the end prove that they aren't even fit to clean out the gutters.
We paid £15m for him, not so he could be a squad player given 1 or 2 years of loaning out and being patient with him. We paid because we thought he could do a job for us in the first team now, and we thought he had the potential to grow into a worldbeater over time. I don't see that last scenario materializing anytime soon, so I'd say cut our loses and get rid. In the end we may have to do the same with Fellaini, but he proves he can do a job and deserves a bit of slack based on his work contribution and his performances at previous clubs.
He has alot of potential and is similar to Ronaldo as in what type of player he is, that is all I wanted to say with that. Ofcourse nothing of that comes off because he lacks intelligence and maturity in his game that Ronaldo has and he is not as professional in his works ethics aswell.
How do you know this?
It is my opinion, I don't claim to know anything, these disucssions aren't exact sience, it is about opnions based on things we see on the pitch and read in the media. Based on all I have seen from Zaha and read about him, I think the guy isn't worth our time and effort. If he were, he'd be showing alot more promise.
Just my opinion, but we were damned if we do, damned if we don't with Zaha. Once the English hype machine took focus on him, it put us (Moyes included) in a terrible situation. To me Zaha has potential and despite the high transfer fee, he was worth the risk. But make no mistake about it, he was a risk. Zaha needs coaching and time before he's ready to play any significant role for us, but it's time Zaha seems unwilling to wait and for that you can't really blame him or claim he has attitude problems. If someone keeps getting told how great they are and a host of teams want you and are willing to start you, it's easy to get frustrated and be unwilling to sit on the bench.
Zaha's career can go either way. He's shown flashes of brilliance at times, but there's alot missing from his game. If he doesn't improve certain aspects of his game, he will probably end up like Ben Arfa or Taarabt, who are a joy to watch and on their day can be match winners, but there's a reason why despite their obvious talent they never made it to a bigger club.
* Note: I know Taraabt plays for AC Milan now, but they are AC Milan in name only nowadays.
Zaha's career can go either way. He's shown flashes of brilliance at times, but there's alot missing from his game. If he doesn't improve certain aspects of his game, he will probably end up like Ben Arfa or Taarabt, who are a joy to watch and on their day can be match winners, but there's a reason why despite their obvious talent they never made it to a bigger club.
* Note: I know Taraabt plays for AC Milan now, but they are AC Milan in name only nowadays.
As I said, no it's not. Any level-headed person who has followed football for any length of time knows this, really. To be clear, I'm neither defending Moyes nor castigating him. I'm just saying that you can't prove anything in football in a single season.
As for the rest of your post, I don't see how it is a reply to mine. I never said Zaha should be 'discarded'. I'm saying I think the status quo is fine - keep him on loan until fulfils his potential enough to be worth having in the squad. If in the long run he never does so, we'll be able to sell him with little harm done.
At this point, for him to make it here, he needs a reality check. He needs a mentor to show him that it isn't all hunky dory in the footballing world and that he needs to knuckle down in order to get better. He needs a mentor to fix his mentality and view of himself.
Zaha definitely has the potential to be useful for a top club. He has a good delivery, he is strong and fast, he's willing to take players on, and he's positive in his game. What he needs right now is a mentor and refinement of his skills and abilities. He needs to improve his teamwork and team skills. He needs to improve on the simple things. He needs to learn to keep things simple and not overcomplicate things. All of those will come from regular football and someone who will knuckle him down rather than treat him like a king. I'm sure his loan spell at Cardiff will provide him that reality check. Plus, Ole's good at handling players, himself.
Zaha definitely has the potential to be useful for a top club. He has a good delivery, he is strong and fast, he's willing to take players on, and he's positive in his game. What he needs right now is a mentor and refinement of his skills and abilities. He needs to improve his teamwork and team skills. He needs to improve on the simple things. He needs to learn to keep things simple and not overcomplicate things. All of those will come from regular football and someone who will knuckle him down rather than treat him like a king. I'm sure his loan spell at Cardiff will provide him that reality check. Plus, Ole's good at handling players, himself.
He had that here - except the regular football because he didn't warrant it - but apparently wasn't taking in anything he was taught.
The loan spell at Cardiff should do the trick, then. He's experienced highs so often in his career, so far, that he thinks that he will never experience any low. Now that he's experiencing these lows, he may fix his attitude (note that I said may, as there's still a chance that he can be a fool and just play for the lower-level teams).
He could be like Ravel and never change his attitude and approach towards this sport, or he may change and get better. I'm hoping for the latter.
What level headed person would let a manager continue who is clearly out of his depth and has been a disastrous failure? This can be judged in less than one season. It's more than enough time to decide whether Moyes is capable of getting something out of our players. And he cannot.
So what constitutes this cut-off point then? 2 seasons? 3? Are you willing to let Moyes carry on screwing up for that long? It's not about getting instant results or expecting miracles in one season either. Would you say the current Chelsea side have progressed or improved in one season with new managers? Or Man City? Theirs would be judged on that, why shouldn't ours?
Very good after coming on for Cardiff today. Some really impressive runs with the ball. Lots of power and pace. Almost scored what would have been a fantastic goal to kill off the match for Cardiff, but got pushed just enough to get a little unbalanced. But finally some good signs from him, haven't been too many of these kinds of performances since he left Palace.
He's one of those flair players that need to learn to do the simple well before showboating. Pleased that he looked better today
Caught his great solo attempt there on MOTD; I thought he'd be very useful here for his speed on the counter, extremely fast.
He's probably at his best when thinking is kept to a minimum, bit like Nani in that regard
He's probably at his best when thinking is kept to a minimum, bit like Nani in that regard
It was good to see him have a go at the Southampton defenders. He is still developing that dribbling at pace thing, he sometimes gets it right, sometimes messes it up. Sometimes he is too strong to knock off the ball, sometimes he gets knocked off easily. Im sure he will improve that quickly. His defensive work is still lacking, he doesnt appear to have worked out when he should apply pressure and where. I think this burst with Ole will do him a lot of good even if he hasnt had as much game time as he would have liked. I hope he is able to get it together for us next season as he does have the attributes there to become a decent player for us.
Once he goes back to United in the summer, Moyes will tell him to knuckle down, work hard and he'll get his chance. If he doesn't, he'll be gone next summer.
I was thinking about him today for some reason... I think he will go down as one of SAF's worst ever signings... He cannot even hold down a regular first team spot at Cardiff. If he was 18-19, that woukd be understandable, but he turned 21 in November.
Given his positiin, he should be showing far more at his current age.
Given his positiin, he should be showing far more at his current age.
Meh. He was signed for 10mil. You would still get 5mil for him. It was a punt that didnt work out at worse.
Get best part of all of it back, he ain't finished at united yet anyway. Just as welbz ain't, other heads will roll first.
My bad, I thought it was 15. 10 is not that bad, I agree.
Funny, that's ecxactly what most of us would say to Moyes if he was still to be around
I don't think it's fair to judge young players by their loan progress alone. Look at Giuseppe Rossi and how he was mishandled when we sent him out on loan in search of first team experience. The fact is that managers usually won't give priority to their loan signings unless they have enough quality to make an instant impact, eg Lukaku. Placing him at Cardiff under the tutelage of Ole didn't seem like a bad idea, but the situation at Cardiff is even more dire than at United, so it was always going to be just as tough if not tougher for him to get games there than staying here, where he could have rotated with Young and Valencia when Nani was still out.
I think his work rate and mentality is probably what's holding him back. HE would have been the perfect signing mid way into last season, we could have bedded him in after we pretty much had the league won by over ten points. He would have been a great signing for an already successful, winning team to develop and add squad depth, not for a struggling team that could hardly buy a win at home.
Had a decent cameo again.
Absolutely agree. When you sign a young player, theres always gonna be falls to their game, and thats why they are loaned out in order to work on them I guess through getting game time.
Patience appears to have gone out of football, and maybe we would never have seen the greats like CR at this club if he was signed today as a 21 year old lad. It certainly wasn't the fans that had patience with him, it was the manager. Its funny cause there was a time when people wanted Giggs to be sold also....
So, any future for this lad under a new manager?
Can't see Giggs being keen on the competition he brings...
Can't see Giggs being keen on the competition he brings...
So, any future for this lad under a new manager?
Can't see Giggs being keen on the competition he brings...
Yeah i think he has.. not sure about his character though!
LVG will straighting him out. Dutch know all about egos.
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