don't see how Martial is a better natural finisher. He has limited finishes and only really good from the keeper right, slotting it. Not really good at drilling it across keepers or long range efforts. only curlers across the keeper. thats not a natural finisher
Why can’t we score goals? (Not the Wout bashing thread)
- Thread starter Pintu
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Goal chances created per 90mins
Antony 0.29
Sancho 0.54
Rachford 0.44
Fernandez 0.47
Martial 0.62
Compare that to
De Bruyne 1.24
Saka 0.79
Mahrez 0.97
Saint-Maximan 0.81
United simply don't create enough chances and the % of those chances that they convert is also low.
With the exception of Rashford, uniteds attackers are slow both in terms of running with the ball and without the ball equally there pass completion rates are low.
I would like to hope that with a quality striker performances would improve an in that regard feel that the board let ETH down in January, but my gut feeling is that both Antony and Sancho are simply too slow for the Premier League.
Antony 0.29
Sancho 0.54
Rachford 0.44
Fernandez 0.47
Martial 0.62
Compare that to
De Bruyne 1.24
Saka 0.79
Mahrez 0.97
Saint-Maximan 0.81
United simply don't create enough chances and the % of those chances that they convert is also low.
With the exception of Rashford, uniteds attackers are slow both in terms of running with the ball and without the ball equally there pass completion rates are low.
I would like to hope that with a quality striker performances would improve an in that regard feel that the board let ETH down in January, but my gut feeling is that both Antony and Sancho are simply too slow for the Premier League.
Several factors. Lack of a top quality centre forward is the obvious one. Antony either being a blind or a greedy bastard is another.
I've lost count of the amount of times he's had a chance to play a teammate in a better position but has gone for the shot himself, then held up an apologetic hand with a hangdog look on his face. Either he doesn't see them, which means he doesn't have the vision to play at the top level, or he chooses to ignore them and ETH tolerates it.
Sancho has been a disaster. It doesn't matter how "talented" a player is, if he doesn't have heart or a pair of balls, he'll be found out at this level. And Sancho is being found out.
Garnacho has been a big loss. A player with a bit of attitude (in the right way) who's skillful, fast, direct, and takes the right option most of the time.
I've lost count of the amount of times he's had a chance to play a teammate in a better position but has gone for the shot himself, then held up an apologetic hand with a hangdog look on his face. Either he doesn't see them, which means he doesn't have the vision to play at the top level, or he chooses to ignore them and ETH tolerates it.
Sancho has been a disaster. It doesn't matter how "talented" a player is, if he doesn't have heart or a pair of balls, he'll be found out at this level. And Sancho is being found out.
Garnacho has been a big loss. A player with a bit of attitude (in the right way) who's skillful, fast, direct, and takes the right option most of the time.
I'll go with a more unorthodox answer, other than "we need a striker". One of the main reasons we don't score more goals is the goalkeeper. In before the GK is there to make saves 
Due to the fact that we have a GK that won't leave his line and isn't comfortable with the ball at his feet, we have to compensate by playing our whole team deeper to protect him from crosses into the 6 yard box, or from his poor long kicks that usually cause us to lose possession. As a result, not only does that invite pressure on our back 4(which requires certain CMs to drop deeper to cover our CBs from being exposed), but also increases our transition distance from defense to attack.
Here is a reddit post showing the average defensive line through the season: Man Utd have an average height of 41.52m(bottom 3) vs City are the top(51.69m) and Arsenal(50.82) in 2nd. Next up are Liverpool, Newcastle, Brighton and Brentford.
https://www.reddit. com/r/reddevils/comments/124je6c/pl_2223_average_defensive_line_height_for_each_pl/
Why is that important to our attack?
Not only do we have to sit deeper as a unit, but also it takes us an extra 7-9m to reach the opposition GK. As a result, the opposing team has more time to reorganize and press us higher up the pitch, which in most cases stifles our attack.
I believe with a more courageous GK who isn't afraid to leave his line and string a couple of passes, we will see a drastic improvement in our build up phase, which will allow us to better control games, have more possession, create more chances and and score more goals.
This whole ping pong football we currently keep playing can only take you so far. If we want to start scoring more goals, we need to start dominating possession, and no better place to start than at the very top, the GK.
Due to the fact that we have a GK that won't leave his line and isn't comfortable with the ball at his feet, we have to compensate by playing our whole team deeper to protect him from crosses into the 6 yard box, or from his poor long kicks that usually cause us to lose possession. As a result, not only does that invite pressure on our back 4(which requires certain CMs to drop deeper to cover our CBs from being exposed), but also increases our transition distance from defense to attack.
Here is a reddit post showing the average defensive line through the season: Man Utd have an average height of 41.52m(bottom 3) vs City are the top(51.69m) and Arsenal(50.82) in 2nd. Next up are Liverpool, Newcastle, Brighton and Brentford.
https://www.reddit. com/r/reddevils/comments/124je6c/pl_2223_average_defensive_line_height_for_each_pl/
Why is that important to our attack?
Not only do we have to sit deeper as a unit, but also it takes us an extra 7-9m to reach the opposition GK. As a result, the opposing team has more time to reorganize and press us higher up the pitch, which in most cases stifles our attack.
I believe with a more courageous GK who isn't afraid to leave his line and string a couple of passes, we will see a drastic improvement in our build up phase, which will allow us to better control games, have more possession, create more chances and and score more goals.
This whole ping pong football we currently keep playing can only take you so far. If we want to start scoring more goals, we need to start dominating possession, and no better place to start than at the very top, the GK.
Greenwood too, no?
The only player who looks to put early balls into the 18 Are Bruno, Erikson and Shaw. Our wingers are looking to score first, pass second while it should be the other way around, and we desperately need a #9 who can stay healthy. Martial is really good with his link up play, but he can't stay healthy and his off the ball movement is non-existent (he wants ball to feet). We need to see more team play and wingers taking guys on wide. Yesterday Antony was given a pass that could have put him straight through on goal if he let it run across his body and ran onto it with his right. Instead, he took a touch with his left and went back towards the 18 and let the defender get goal side. It is so frustrating. I don't know how guys can get to this level and not be able to play with both feet..
Rashford's purple patch is over and our other forwards are shite in front of goal, not that complicated.
Kane can definitely link the play and no doubt Caicedo can provide the physicality and passing but unsure about game control
We weren't great at goals after Ole's pandemic success. Then we lost Ronaldo and Greenwood permanently, lost Martial for more than half of the season. None of the replacements - Antony, Sancho or Weghorst - are goalscorers. Bruno might be creating more than KDB right now but we had no one to finish those chances. It's impressive that we're still around top 4 and in contention for another trophy.
That list makes me really sad.
That list makes me really sad.
Last season we averaged less possession per game and scored slighty more game so it's not as simple as improving possession= more goals and no you don't replace a keeper if you wanna improve your goalscoring, that only works if your team has a semblance of a coherent attacking unit.I'll go with a more unorthodox answer, other than "we need a striker". One of the main reasons we don't score more goals is the goalkeeper. In before the GK is there to make saves
Due to the fact that we have a GK that won't leave his line and isn't comfortable with the ball at his feet, we have to compensate by playing our whole team deeper to protect him from crosses into the 6 yard box, or from his poor long kicks that usually cause us to lose possession. As a result, not only does that invite pressure on our back 4(which requires certain CMs to drop deeper to cover our CBs from being exposed), but also increases our transition distance from defense to attack.
Here is a reddit post showing the average defensive line through the season: Man Utd have an average height of 41.52m(bottom 3) vs City are the top(51.69m) and Arsenal(50.82) in 2nd. Next up are Liverpool, Newcastle, Brighton and Brentford.
https://www.reddit. com/r/reddevils/comments/124je6c/pl_2223_average_defensive_line_height_for_each_pl/
Why is that important to our attack?
Not only do we have to sit deeper as a unit, but also it takes us an extra 7-9m to reach the opposition GK. As a result, the opposing team has more time to reorganize and press us higher up the pitch, which in most cases stifles our attack.
I believe with a more courageous GK who isn't afraid to leave his line and string a couple of passes, we will see a drastic improvement in our build up phase, which will allow us to better control games, have more possession, create more chances and and score more goals.
This whole ping pong football we currently keep playing can only take you so far. If we want to start scoring more goals, we need to start dominating possession, and no better place to start than at the very top, the GK.
Our chance creation and scoring is so low that changing the keeper to improve it would be ridiculous
It's because we don't have a proper striker, a proper focal point up front to aim for.
That then filters down the team to wingers, midfielders...they've no one to aim for, so are then stuck in no man's land. Anthony...does he take players on and try to get a cross in?..in to who? Rashford?..Sancho?..Weggy?..who's the target man? So in the end his mind makes it up for him...there isn't one so just cut in and shoot.
Same with the midfielders, who can they supply or play through the lines too? Same decision goes through their minds...Rashford? Sancho? Wegs going to make that run?...in the end they've either been dispossessed, play a safe pass and slow the game down or try a ridiculous shot from 30yrds and send it into the car park.
There's no focal point so the team flaps about trying to create something. Even if you stuck Kane up front, it would at least give the rest of the team something to aim for.
You could argue that even Wrexham have more of a point man to aim for in Mullin.
That then filters down the team to wingers, midfielders...they've no one to aim for, so are then stuck in no man's land. Anthony...does he take players on and try to get a cross in?..in to who? Rashford?..Sancho?..Weggy?..who's the target man? So in the end his mind makes it up for him...there isn't one so just cut in and shoot.
Same with the midfielders, who can they supply or play through the lines too? Same decision goes through their minds...Rashford? Sancho? Wegs going to make that run?...in the end they've either been dispossessed, play a safe pass and slow the game down or try a ridiculous shot from 30yrds and send it into the car park.
There's no focal point so the team flaps about trying to create something. Even if you stuck Kane up front, it would at least give the rest of the team something to aim for.
You could argue that even Wrexham have more of a point man to aim for in Mullin.
He won’t even come close in the PL, which is where we struggle to score. He’s on 16, van Persie ended on 26. He’s not scoring 11 in 5 games.
Edit: van Persie remains our last player to score 20+ in a PL season. Ronaldo came closest on 18. Martial, Rashford, Ibrahimovic all hit 17 once.
In the league he won't fair enough.
RVP finished on 25 I think actually and that was with his 2 month drought.
26 goals and 9 assists in 38 matches. Even with that drought - how we’d kill for those figures from an attacker in the league!
Caicedo would just be competition for Casemiro. We still need a starting 8 with physicality who can run a game like Eriksen can
What came first, the chicken or the egg?
Hard to score a lot of goals with this de facto formation:
----------------GK------------------
----------CB---------CB-------LB
----------CM--------CM----------
-----------------AM-------------IF
---------------------------------------
----------------GK------------------
----------CB---------CB-------LB
----------CM--------CM----------
-----------------AM-------------IF
---------------------------------------
Possession point is fair enough, but we're definitely underperforming xg in a way other teams around us, let alone others in cl places, aren't (or aren't as much). And having a keeper who can't consistently sweep or recycle possession properly does lead us to being too deep which always has knock on effects in terms of connecting defence and midfield and then midfield and attck, doubly so when Lisa is out: Shaw is good, and slightly better at driving out with the ball, but LM, with Shaw on left, is usually the only way we start to compensate for de gea's non-shot saving attributes..
Because Ten Hag's system offers us nothing extra in attack. We haven't had a competent attacking system since Ferguson retired.
Brighton have Welbeck as their main striker. His finishing has been as poor as usual. He has scored 6 goals. Ferguson has 4 goals in relatively few mins. Overall Brighton have scored 62 compared to our 49, despite playing one game less and making a significant profit in the transfer market this season. Between them, Potter and De Zerbi have created a system that works, almost regardless of the quality of the players available.
Meanwhile United think the answer is to spend £100m+ on a striker.
Brighton have Welbeck as their main striker. His finishing has been as poor as usual. He has scored 6 goals. Ferguson has 4 goals in relatively few mins. Overall Brighton have scored 62 compared to our 49, despite playing one game less and making a significant profit in the transfer market this season. Between them, Potter and De Zerbi have created a system that works, almost regardless of the quality of the players available.
Meanwhile United think the answer is to spend £100m+ on a striker.
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You know what would be a good way to get closer to our xG ? Getting a consistent scorer, a ball playing keeper would be helpful but only if many boxes are ticked before it.
We are lacking the most important element of an attack (Rashford carried the torch impressively this season), a reliable scoring threat
City scored plenty last year and they didnt have a striker. Liverpools main "striker" was Firminho and he didn't score much. You can't just drop a good striker into a team and expect the goals to increase. Ronaldo scored plenty for us but we got worse. The striker converts the chances, they don't often make them. We could add Haland and he wouldn't score for us near what he has for City because we don't make the same amount of chances. All those strikers you listed had brilliant supply.
Our problem is that we don't really have a winger or right back that creates anything. Fernandes makes a lot but is very risky sometimes. Sancho and Antony are very ineffective. Rashford is more a scorer than a creator.
Do they necessarily need physicality
Eh, that's not really true. A quality striker makes chances for himself and has better movement too receive passes from others, makes it easier for others to create for him, knows where to move for the ball to fall to him, and brings others into play better than what we've had. A huge amount of our weakness up top is simply from having absolute garbage players up there. There are at least 20 Premier League central forwards who would start for us on a regular basis, across like 15 of the teams. That says it all, and it's not an exaggeration.
We create a good amount. No we don't create as much as City nor are we as dominant. But that's an unrealistic level to be frank. There is a whole world in between where they are and what we produce, and a top striker does a whole lot to bridge a good chunk of that gap. Of course, we can do more, but a top striker would make an enormous difference.
Would we score 81 goals (instead of 49 now) if we had Jesus as striker?
I don't think we create enough chances in the first place. Rashford and Antony are generally not interested in creating for anybody else. They see the goal and look to shoot at almost every opportunity. When Martial plays, he will set other players up. We create more chances when he is on the pitch. Sancho also looks to pass, but a lot of what he tries doesn't really come off.
The only player that has scored much this season is Rashford. When he doesn't score, nobody else steps up. Bruno also stopped scoring over the past 2 seasons. His shooting now is nothing like his first 18 months. Almost everything went in back then.
I don't think adding a quality #9 will fix everything. He will score goals, but it's still not going to be enough. We will need to add close to 30+ goals to realistically challenge for the title. The rest of the team have to score more. We also need our forwards to be less selfish in the final 3rd.
People complain about our strikers being bad/unreliable, but let's be real. Look at Brighton. Their #9 is Welbeck. He has 6 goals in the PL. They have scored 13 more goals than we have. Adding a #9 will not fix all of the problems.
The only player that has scored much this season is Rashford. When he doesn't score, nobody else steps up. Bruno also stopped scoring over the past 2 seasons. His shooting now is nothing like his first 18 months. Almost everything went in back then.
I don't think adding a quality #9 will fix everything. He will score goals, but it's still not going to be enough. We will need to add close to 30+ goals to realistically challenge for the title. The rest of the team have to score more. We also need our forwards to be less selfish in the final 3rd.
People complain about our strikers being bad/unreliable, but let's be real. Look at Brighton. Their #9 is Welbeck. He has 6 goals in the PL. They have scored 13 more goals than we have. Adding a #9 will not fix all of the problems.
Technically xG has us at 58 or so right now, so you'd expect around 10 more even just through regressing to the mean with what we have, then add a boost of just having a more confident group and you'd expect a bit of positive finishing which even if you look at our past 5 seasons, we tend to do every other year. So really we are at our ultimate low in terms of variance below our expected goals. Add a far better forward than any striker we've put out this season and yeah I'd say 15 goals on top of that is fair. Could easily have us in the 70s with Jesus and just variance.
Arsenal for example are 10 above their xG. We are about 9 below. Only a difference of 12 xG between United and Arsenal. Next season it could easily swing the opposite way, as it tends to do year to year, and that xG difference (not counting if they improve, just those 12 xG) you would think would easily go away with playing with even a striker like Jesus, let alone Osimhen or Kane.
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This is it, close the thread.
I am feckin fed up to the back teeth with marshall. He needs to be sold. 7 years of mostly shite. No other club would tolerate this sort of bullshit from him. Cant be arsed moving, cant be arsed tracking back, cant be arsed generally. Get rid. useless frenchman.
Martial used to be a great finisher, certainly better than Rashford. The issue was always that he didn't get into dangerous positions enough, but when he did he was very good at slotting it into the back of the net. He seems to have lost that ability over the last few years, although in saying that he was finishing at a very high rate in the earlier part of this season again.
Whatsup with garnacho?
I don't see having Jesus would make us close to Arsenal's 81 goals so far (instead of 49 we have). Also Rashford's goals would probably be less as some of his goals were when he was the main striker.
But you're probably right. I wish I share your optimism.
We're easy to defend against because we only have one goal threat, shut him down and unless Bruno does absolutely everything himself we're completely impotent
Not really true.
We are one of the top teams for chances created. We are not a freak team like City but Bruno still creates as much as De Bruyne. We dont finish them.
You don't need a 30+ goal striker either. A single focal point can be a problem. If you don't have that, you need one who scores 15-20 and contributes at least the same again with their all round play. Most importantly we need somebody who will get on the end of all those chances created. Not all of them will be converted but we don't have anybody who even tests the opposition defenders.
We just don't have a finisher. Simple as that. A finisher is a finisher, can't replace that with other players. Players like Rashford, Bruno, Anthony, etc. are supplements. We miss a 25 goals Striker.
When Rashford was injured we scored plenty.
As others have written there are other teams without strikes who score a lot with more goals than us. City didn't even play a striker often and massively out scored us. A better striker won't improve us much for 2 reasons
1. as we are poor in midfield and our current attackers are just not good enough.
2. A striker is the icing on the cake, rarely do they alone make a massive impact.
1. as we are poor in midfield and our current attackers are just not good enough.
2. A striker is the icing on the cake, rarely do they alone make a massive impact.
The system ETH deploys just doesn’t create enough chances per game.
We've created enough chances, we just don't have enough players that put them away.
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