Who replaces Ten Hag?

[crossy1686]

Ive said it before, you can keep hiring managers with a scattergun approach, but until you decide as a club what type of football you want to play and only bring in players and managers who play this way then you are doomed to fail.
Even if you have to get shut of your big name players to accomplish this over a few seasons, if you dont it will never work.
You could bring in Di Zerbi, Klopp, Arteta or Pep and they would still struggle as we have no identity of a style.
If Murtough cant do it, then he should hire someone who can oversee whatever style they decide on, and stick to that plan. At least if we fail with one or two managers the players they bought in or promoted would be a base for the next manager. Eventually we would have a team in harmony on how to play the way we want to.

So you're saying that a good coach cannot coach professional footballers to pass and move in a different way to the way they currently do?

If we take that as a stonewall fact then how do we explain the way Ange has taken Tottenham to a free flowing football team after two defensive managers? What about how De Zerbi has got Brighton, who before Ferguson, only had Welbeck as their only recognisable striker, scoring loads of goals when Potter's excuse was that he didn't have a world class forward so their peak was midtable? How did Arteta get Arsenal playing good football and Xhaka to become the heartbeat of Arsenal when he was considered dead wood previously?

You're over complicating things, football is quite a simple game. You don't have to be born within a 10 mile radius of Camp Nou to be able to control a ball and avoid a tackle. Outside of our obvious issues off the pitch, on the pitch everything is fixable when you have a good manager.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

If for whatever reason ETH got sacked tomorrow (he won't or shouldn't - but let's say if) - and we can't get Zidane (ha!) then my choice would probably be Graham Potter. I realise his stint at Chelsea wasn't great, but they're even more of a basket case then we are - and I think there's a good manager in there.

We'd probably go for Van Nistelrooy though.

 

[wolvored]

So you're saying that a good coach cannot coach professional footballers to pass and move in a different way to the way they currently do?

If we take that as a stonewall fact then how do we explain the way Ange has taken Tottenham to a free flowing football team after two defensive managers? What about how De Zerbi has got Brighton, who before Ferguson, only had Welbeck as their only recognisable striker, scoring loads of goals when Potter's excuse was that he didn't have a world class forward so their peak was midtable? How did Arteta get Arsenal playing good football and Xhaka to become the heartbeat of Arsenal when he was considered dead wood previously?

You're over complicating things, football is quite a simple game. You don't have to be born within a 10 mile radius of Camp Nou to be able to control a ball and avoid a tackle. Outside of our obvious issues off the pitch, on the pitch everything is fixable when you have a good manager.

You look at these other teams and you are right of course, but it doesnt work at Utd. Why this is, nobody seems to know otherwise we would be the same and not in this state.
As I said we have had 6 managers since Fergie all trying different ways to play and nothing has worked long term. Surely trying something different as in picking one style, possession lets say and picking the personnel that suits possession over a long term has got to be better than a mish mash of players and managers with different styles not working.

 

[crossy1686]

If for whatever reason ETH got sacked tomorrow (he won't or shouldn't - but let's say if) - and we can't get Zidane (ha!) then my choice would probably be Graham Potter. I realise his stint at Chelsea wasn't great, but they're even more of a basket case then we are - and I think there's a good manager in there.

We'd probably go for Van Nistelrooy though.

The issue with Potter is he cannot coach a team to score goals so we'd be in the same situation we're in now where we can't beat a low/mid block and ultimately concede at some point. Potter struggled with this at Brighton where excuses were made for him because Brighton couldn't afford a good striker but the same issue happened at Chelsea, which would lead us to another situation where we need to give a manager 'time' to learn how to unlock this issue. I'd take him as interim but we really should be looking for a more complete coach.

 

[sugar_kane]

So you're saying that a good coach cannot coach professional footballers to pass and move in a different way to the way they currently do?

If we take that as a stonewall fact then how do we explain the way Ange has taken Tottenham to a free flowing football team after two defensive managers? What about how De Zerbi has got Brighton, who before Ferguson, only had Welbeck as their only recognisable striker, scoring loads of goals when Potter's excuse was that he didn't have a world class forward so their peak was midtable? How did Arteta get Arsenal playing good football and Xhaka to become the heartbeat of Arsenal when he was considered dead wood previously?

You're over complicating things, football is quite a simple game. You don't have to be born within a 10 mile radius of Camp Nou to be able to control a ball and avoid a tackle. Outside of our obvious issues off the pitch, on the pitch everything is fixable when you have a good manager.

So the conclusion here seems to be that Ten Hag and his team can't coach. What happened at Ajax then, where they beat the likes of Real Madrid & Juventus away from home and twice went toe to toe with Bayern? He also had them within two minutes of a Champions League final.

Our squad is a disaster, and the mentality is broken. It is going to take time to fix, replace Ten Hag and it's another reset because we have no long term plan or vision.

Aside from that, we have half our squad injured and no fit left back. Is it any wonder we're struggling.

 

[ThatGreyKit]

I'm starting to think some posters experience the new manager bounce and love the feeling of having a new one over anything else.

Just this weekend I've seen it should be De Zerbi but he should be told he has no money to spend and work with what he has. The same people were complaining about the manager we have now at the end of his first season and saying we give managers too much time.

So basically we take a manager that has a good set up behind him at his old club, drop him into the United black hole, tell him to get on with it, give him a year and if nothing has changed sack him and go to the next one.

When we run out of suitable choices doing it that way we could just circle back round to the start and try them again. Or we give each fan a weekend at it like fantasy football.

 

[Zlatattack]

We need to hire Roy Keane as an assistant and Micah Richards as his muscle.

There is no point sacking the manner, the culture of player power at this club has gone on too long. Leave him be for another couple of years, let him remove everyone and anyone who doesn't do what he says, how he says it. Regularly changing managers has got us nowhere, lets stick with this one for a while.

 

[crossy1686]

You look at these other teams and you are right of course, but it doesnt work at Utd. Why this is, nobody seems to know otherwise we would be the same and not in this state.
As I said we have had 6 managers since Fergie all trying different ways to play and nothing has worked long term. Surely trying something different as in picking one style, possession lets say and picking the personnel that suits possession over a long term has got to be better than a mish mash of players and managers with different styles not working.

Why doesn't it work at United though? We're just a football team like everyone else, in fact we're a very expensively built football team with some of the highest paid players in the world so why are we different to the likes of Tottenham or Arsenal?

The reason 6 managers post Fergie have failed is because they haven't been good enough, and we can dance around the reasons but the black and white of the matter is they weren't good enough to keep their jobs and the results ultimately proved that fact. Part of the reason the new manager fails is because we give the previous manager free reign to sack everyone and buy whoever he wants. If we just stop doing this and force managers to work with the squad we have then they won't be banishing players left right and centre because they'd rather spend another £200m in the summer than work with certain personalities or change their approach to the game.

No one else in the world gets £200m a summer without earning it but we hand it out like there's an unlimited supply of cash.

 

[Gordon Godot]

We need to hire Roy Keane as an assistant and Micah Richards as his muscle.

There is no point sacking the manner, the culture of player power at this club has gone on too long. Leave him be for another couple of years, let him remove everyone and anyone who doesn't do what he says, how he says it. Regularly changing managers has got us nowhere, lets stick with this one for a while.

Dont think this is the issue. THe first problem is the Glazers who dont care and pay incompetents to run the club (badly). ETH is looking out of his depth, and the incompetents in charge have given him free reign on signings. THis is likely to be his downfall, as most are not good enough and we overpaid. So I fear he will be gone by Xmas, I think as we saw with Ole its possible to get more out of this squad, but we wont win anything of significance until the Glazers are gone and club run properly. Player 'power' is just a symptom of the club being badly run

 

[stoinz]

Calm down man. Too early to make any call. We gotten off badly. Not sure how much of the current mess is atttribute to him or down to bad luck.

We have an issue with goals but the club have not exactly provided him with any solutions. We signed Hojlund instead of Kane. It is a bit unreasonable to expect a young prospect to solve our goal scoring issues.

We also have unprecendented injury crisis at our bad, we did wanted to sign KMJ to cover for Varane but gotten no one in defense. In terms of midfield, Mount was injured most of the time so we can't really judge his effect based one game back.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

The issue with Potter is he cannot coach a team to score goals so we'd be in the same situation we're in now where we can't beat a low/mid block and ultimately concede at some point. Potter struggled with this at Brighton where excuses were made for him because Brighton couldn't afford a good striker but the same issue happened at Chelsea, which would lead us to another situation where we need to give a manager 'time' to learn how to unlock this issue. I'd take him as interim but we really should be looking for a more complete coach.

Fair points - I'm just a fan of Potter, which blinds it a bit. His win percentage over his career though is pretty poor.... I just don't really know who this "complete coach" is that is actually available/would come here. Probably just take a massive punt on a McKenna or Xavi Alonso or something.

 

[crossy1686]

So the conclusion here seems to be that Ten Hag and his team can't coach. What happened at Ajax then, where they beat the likes of Real Madrid & Juventus away from home and twice went toe to toe with Bayern? He also had them within two minutes of a Champions League final.

Our squad is a disaster, and the mentality is broken. It is going to take time to fix, replace Ten Hag and it's another reset because we have no long term plan or vision.

Aside from that, we have half our squad injured and no fit left back. Is it any wonder we're struggling.

Ask the Ajax fans, they were largely unimpressed with Ten Hag and he was looking at the sack at one point but then it clicked, in his first season. He didn't have them playing well then slowly regressed the team to playing shit because he signed his own players.

We did not lose to Palace because we had a makeshift LB, it's not an excuse. We beat Arsenal once with a midfield made up of defenders.

 

[Dr Foo]

The lord Jesus Christ himself could be available and eager for the job and it wouldn’t make the slightest bit of difference. The manager is NOT the problem, the owners are.

Even Buddha's patience would be tested as a manager here. As has been mentioned, we need to sort out the structure first before thinking of changing managers. Where the be all and end all is not the manager (proper scouting network, clear style and identity that breeds continuation, getting rid of deadwood for good, funds for the right players with new owners).

 

[sugar_kane]

Ask the Ajax fans, they were largely unimpressed with Ten Hag and he was looking at the sack at one point but then it clicked, in his first season. He didn't have them playing well then slowly regressed the team to playing shit because he signed his own players.

Sorry what's your point? Didn't he then get them to a Champions League semi-final beating Real Madrid 4-1 in the Bernabeu and win the league with them three years in a row?

 

[crossy1686]

Fair points - I'm just a fan of Potter, which blinds it a bit. His win percentage over his career though is pretty poor.... I just don't really know who this "complete coach" is that is actually available/would come here. Probably just take a massive punt on a McKenna or Xavi Alonso or something.

Nah, they're out there but we have to gamble slightly with someone who has a strong belief in the way they want to play and is willing to actually coach instead of just throw money at the issue. At the moment we're always trying to replace Fergie with our next appointment, bring a man in who can do everything and cover for the incompetence of the board, but the reality is that guy doesn't exist so let's just focus on getting a well drilled team and winning games then who knows what will happen after that? Maybe they'll earn the right to have access to big money, maybe they'll be more inclined to listen to the scouting team? Who knows, but we should probably avoid appointing this managers that need to learn on the job at the biggest club in the world.

 

[crossy1686]

Sorry what's your point? Didn't he then get them to a Champions League semi-final beating Real Madrid 4-1 in the Bernabeu and win the league with them three years in a row?

He did, Di Matteo won a CL title once, Ole got to a Europa league final. We can talk about past glories that mean absolutely nothing all you want.

 

[wolvored]

Why doesn't it work at United though? We're just a football team like everyone else, in fact we're a very expensively built football team with some of the highest paid players in the world so why are we different to the likes of Tottenham or Arsenal?

The reason 6 managers post Fergie have failed is because they haven't been good enough, and we can dance around the reasons but the black and white of the matter is they weren't good enough to keep their jobs and the results ultimately proved that fact. Part of the reason the new manager fails is because we give the previous manager free reign to sack everyone and buy whoever he wants. If we just stop doing this and force managers to work with the squad we have then they won't be banishing players left right and centre because they'd rather spend another £200m in the summer than work with certain personalities or change their approach to the game.

No one else in the world gets £200m a summer without earning it but we hand it out like there's an unlimited supply of cash.

The first bolded part is the $64k question. No one knows otherwise it wouldnt keep happening. The next two black bolded parts are to blame as like I said every manager is different so the previous managers players cant or wont work with the new manager. The red bolded part is wrong, as we dont let the manager sack or sell everyone, so we got the likes of McTom Maguire VDB etc still taking places that even the youth could take up.
Like you I cant see why Utd struggle so much. I look at Arsenal and Wenger Emery and Arteta. Are they that much different in how they want to play, compared to the managers we have had? Rogers and Klopp? Potter and di Zerbi? Pep and the previous managers at City? Spurs are the only enigma for me, how they have started.

 

[The Hilton]

We're not though. We're regressing and scoring less goals.

You're a different poster, the poster I replied to explicitly said "only trophies buy credit" and then referenced managers who had multiple seasons without trophies as a building credit. It was textbook moving the goalposts.

As for regressing, I disagree, we're going through growing pains, trying to implement a new style. No matter who the manager is, there will be pain trying to transition away from the mid block counter attacking football to something more proactive.

 

[crossy1686]

The first bolded part is the $64k question. No one knows otherwise it wouldnt keep happening. The next two black bolded parts are to blame as like I said every manager is different so the previous managers players cant or wont work with the new manager. The red bolded part is wrong, as we dont let the manager sack or sell everyone, so we got the likes of McTom Maguire VDB etc still taking places that even the youth could take up.
Like you I cant see why Utd struggle so much. I look at Arsenal and Wenger Emery and Arteta. Are they that much different in how they want to play, compared to the managers we have had? Rogers and Klopp? Potter and di Zerbi? Pep and the previous managers at City? Spurs are the only enigma for me, how they have started.

They're not different though, we've seen pretty much every manager in the league change their approach over the last few seasons to play out from the back, even 'shit' managers have managed to get their one dimensional teams to do this to varying degrees. For some reason we all believe this isn't possible without replacing the entire squad first. Part of our problem is we keep the wrong managers for too long because we make excuses up for them and we also do at board level when a competent board would fire Ten Hag in the next month or so. He could probably lose 15 games this season and keep his job because the board are too scared of getting another Rangnick situation. If we want to continue playing expansive football then just hire a coach that is in touch with modern philosophies, there's no reason to over complicate the issues.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

So you're saying that a good coach cannot coach professional footballers to pass and move in a different way to the way they currently do?

I think the problem with this whole "we need a playing philosophy" thing is, it works better for smaller clubs than bigger clubs.

For a smaller club, you maximize your resources by getting somewhat limited players who are really good at 1-2 things.

But if you're a bigger club, like Manchester United, you really oughta sign players who could excel in most systems, aka top top players.

People talk about the ill-fitting squad at United, the varying approaches of different managers... all those things are issues, yes. But a bigger issue, IMO, is that the players aren't that great.

 

[IRONTUSK]

Look I don`t think ETH should go, but based on the question.

It feel`s to me like it wouldn`t make any difference anymore who comes in. There is a major reset that needs to happen starting with the owners going and a change in the backroom/board level. All of that + nailing recruitment for the following 2-3 years.

We have cut/changed managers when they have one poor season and finished outside the top 4. Maybe this time we should try a different tactic and stick with one manager for longer than 2-3 seasons and support them whilst the reset/ recruitment happens. All of which we are looking at 3-4 seasons to happen.

 

[wolvored]

They're not different though, we've seen pretty much every manager in the league change their approach over the last few seasons to play out from the back, even 'shit' managers have managed to get their one dimensional teams to do this to varying degrees. For some reason we all believe this isn't possible without replacing the entire squad first. Part of our problem is we keep the wrong managers for too long because we make excuses up for them and we also do at board level when a competent board would fire Ten Hag in the next month or so. He could probably lose 15 games this season and keep his job because the board are too scared of getting another Rangnick situation. If we want to continue playing expansive football then just hire a coach that is in touch with modern philosophies, there's no reason to over complicate the issues.

These next few games before City he needs to start winning and getting belief into the side. Otherwise an heavy defeat to City could see him gone. Where do we go from there though? Who would you like to take over if that scenario happens?

 

[crossy1686]

These next few games before City he needs to start winning and getting belief into the side. Otherwise an heavy defeat to City could see him gone. Where do we go from there though? Who would you like to take over if that scenario happens?

I don't really know mate, I don't have the answers other than we identify another good coach who's hungry to prove they can coach a big team and will do whatever it takes to be successful. We need to stop 'marrying' the manager and holding him up as our saviour and great last hope. You try someone based on what you're looking for in a coach, if it doesn't work out then you replace him until you get it right, you don't stick with the wrong man because you're scared of getting another wrong man. We have a squad that was good enough to finish in the top 4 and get to two cup finals last season so they aren't shit by any stretch of the imagination. As I've previously said, I'd like to see De Zerbi, or maybe Inzaghi at Inter, maybe the River Plate coach (Gallardo), maybe Valverde? None of these may be better options in the end but there's a chance one of them is a better fit so why not try instead of doing nothing but hoping?

 

[m1tch]

We need Ancelotti to get sacked by RM first.

 

[Luffy]

We need Ancelotti to get sacked by RM first.

The Ancelotti at RM is Dr Jekyll, the one at Everton was Mr Hyde, guess which one will end up here if he does turn up.

 

[wolvored]

I don't really know mate, I don't have the answers other than we identify another good coach who's hungry to prove they can coach a big team and will do whatever it takes to be successful. We need to stop 'marrying' the manager and holding him up as our saviour and great last hope. You try someone based on what you're looking for in a coach, if it doesn't work out then you replace him until you get it right, you don't stick with the wrong man because you're scared of getting another wrong man. We have a squad that was good enough to finish in the top 4 and get to two cup finals last season so they aren't shit by any stretch of the imagination. As I've previously said, I'd like to see De Zerbi, or maybe Inzaghi at Inter, maybe the River Plate coach (Gallardo), maybe Valverde? None of these may be better options in the end but there's a chance one of them is a better fit so why not try instead of doing nothing but hoping?

De Zerbi blows hot and sometimes cold though. When they play us they look WC, but then they do have big losses in them as well. Emery doing fairly well at Villa and has won a few trophies, but didnt set Arsenal alight.
I wouldnt even want Ange before he went to Spurs, so maybe the obvious big name managers isnt always the best and we have done that before.
I really havent have a clue who to bring in, as I thought TH would be the answer, but there are a lot of faults.

 

[crossy1686]

De Zerbi looks hot and sometimes cold though. When they play us they look WC, but then they do have big losses in them as well. Emery doing fairly well at Villa and has won a few trophies, but didnt set Arsenal alight.
I wouldnt even want Ange before he went to Spurs, so maybe the obvious big name managers isnt always the best and we have done that before.
I really havent have a clue who to bring in, as I thought TH would be the answer, but there are a lot of faults.

And I agree with all those statements you've made but maybe De Zerbi works out well for us, we already have big losses in the team as it is but at least he seems to know how to get a team to be able to break down other teams so we will score. Emery is too much of a defensive manager to work for us, the fans won't tolerate that again though. I don't think Ten Hag should go today but I'm pretty sure he's going to go within the next 10 league games and I hope we have a plan to replace him instead of scratching around.

 

[Luffy]

Speaking of the Crystal Palace league game, I think we gave the same level of effort as the successful comeback against Forest. But we lacked purpose, and played way too many pointless and hopeful lobs. We can play on the same level of intensity against our opponents but with some luck we might get away with it more than not. The positive is that even with this low bar, we will end up 5th or 6th. What irks me is fans taking a relatively decent league position and painting a rosy picture with this one element.

 

[goAwayKiddo]

Zidane, new owners, give him 800mil to spend and lets chase the tittle.

 

[PSV]

It's hard to understand when you're moving the goalposts, as previously it was that only trophies buy credit.

I mostly agree with you about progress and CL places being required, but I'd be willing to accept a lower finish if it looked like we were really starting to grasp the new system by the end of the season.

I'm not really moving the goalposts though as your first post had the premise of "continuous improvement or you're gone?" I would say all of these are progress on the previous season.

Last season we were 3rd. An acceptable lower finish of 4th/5th is more than enough slack even though I don't buy into this "new system" taking years to grasp.

 

[Kellyiom]

And I agree with all those statements you've made but maybe De Zerbi works out well for us, we already have big losses in the team as it is but at least he seems to know how to get a team to be able to break down other teams so we will score. Emery is too much of a defensive manager to work for us, the fans won't tolerate that again though. I don't think Ten Hag should go today but I'm pretty sure he's going to go within the next 10 league games and I hope we have a plan to replace him instead of scratching around.

We would need 30M to get De Zebri and we have no money .
So we stuck with Eth or if he is sacked,Fletcher
[/QUOTE]
I feel there's an inevitability about it now sadly, the players look dazed so I think we'd better brace for a bit of turbulence.

 

[UnitedSofa]

No one.

I’m fed up of this chopping and changing and basically throwing in the towel the very second it gets tough. We finished 3rd and won a trophy last season and all was rosy. We have an absolute trainwreck of a start of a season with god knows how many injuries and we want to scrap it and start again. Only for another manager to come in and face the same fecking issues that EtH is facing. Changing the manager will not work.


Stick with him and see what happens over the course of a season or two. Look at Arteta and Arsenal, I’d rather that and get success that way (yes I’m asking for MORE patience) than instant success. Fed up of the need for a constant instant gratification, it will only end up in another cycle of winning/losing sacking, winning/losing sacking. It’s tiresome & to a degree it’s caught up with Chelsea and look at the shite there, it’s arguably worse than us right now.

 

[Plant0x84]

Yeah I am out of suggestions and if these leeches oversee another sacking then we are fecked. Still so annoyed he just discarded Rangnick

Really? It was clear nobody at the club was listening to Ralf because they didn’t like what he was saying.
With that as the context it’s understandable that Erik wanted a clean break.

 

[Matt Varnish]

ex-players are not a problem, as long as they are good.

Take Hojlund as example, do people really think he is better than Weghorst, Ighalo? Poor 1st touch, poor ball protection, no intelligent passing, and yet we paid the price of Lukaku, for quality of Weghorst.

Dont think this is the issue. THe first problem is the Glazers who dont care and pay incompetents to run the club (badly). ETH is looking out of his depth, and the incompetents in charge have given him free reign on signings. THis is likely to be his downfall, as most are not good enough and we overpaid. So I fear he will be gone by Xmas, I think as we saw with Ole its possible to get more out of this squad, but we wont win anything of significance until the Glazers are gone and club run properly. Player 'power' is just a symptom of the club being badly run

I think that you and a lot of fans have misconception on how the club is run, or any business for that matter.

The Glazers rely on the board of directors they appoint to run the club on a daily basis, some of that is delegated to executives and managers.
The Glazer take advice from the board, they are the ones that sanction money being spent, not the like of Murtough, or Charlton even, it's the Glazers.
The Glazers do not run the club.
The board does, and their scapegoat is always the manager, they make bad decisions it's someone down the line who gets it.
The best saying in business is that "Shit flows downhill, and at the bottom is some poor sod with a bucket"

 

[Giggsy13]

No one.

I’m fed up of this chopping and changing and basically throwing in the towel the very second it gets tough. We finished 3rd and won a trophy last season and all was rosy. We have an absolute trainwreck of a start of a season with god knows how many injuries and we want to scrap it and start again. Only for another manager to come in and face the same fecking issues that EtH is facing. Changing the manager will not work.


Stick with him and see what happens over the course of a season or two. Look at Arteta and Arsenal, I’d rather that and get success that way (yes I’m asking for MORE patience) than instant success. Fed up of the need for a constant instant gratification, it will only end up in another cycle of winning/losing sacking, winning/losing sacking. It’s tiresome & to a degree it’s caught up with Chelsea and look at the shite there, it’s arguably worse than us right now.

Excellent post.

 

[PSV]

If we take a look at how "other teams did it".

Here's the list of Premier League winning managers that continuously improved their position season-by-season:

Dalglish: 6th (CS) - 4th - 2nd - 1st
Wenger: 3rd - 1st
Mourinho: 1st
Ancelotti: 1st
Mancini: 5th - 3rd - 1st
Pellegrino: 1st
Mourinho: 3rd - 1st
Ranieri: 1st
Guardiola: 3rd - 1st
Klopp: 8th - 4th - 4th - 2nd - 1st

Here's a list of Premier League winning managers that took a step back during their progress to the trophy:


The lists are complete.

 

[lex talionis]

The players are the problem. ETH does, however, need to be less forgiving of his underperforming players. His coddling of Rashford has to stop.

Who would be bring in, anyway? Big Sam? Pardew? Lampard?

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Sorry what's your point? Didn't he then get them to a Champions League semi-final beating Real Madrid 4-1 in the Bernabeu and win the league with them three years in a row?

Stop it.
Even Schalke reached semi final in 2011.

Doing it once is not a big issue, doing it repeatedly is what matters.
Bring ETH UCL record here we discuss it.

ETH is ONE year older than Pep. While pep has been involved in UCL semi finals in record times. 9 times.

Manchester United as a club as 7 Semi finals in Champions League format. Pep has 9.

Klopp is Older than ETH with 3 years. While Klopp has been involved in 3 or 4 Semi finals. Confirm.

As you can see able competent managers will be able to compete in the highest level frequently.

ETH, is not a very good coach. He needed to blossom here same as what klopp did but it looks like he won't, sadly.

What will he pull out to change the tide of the club, that he hasn't done in 18 months? This is the biggest question.

What new masterstroke will he have to make United a top modern team?

 

[The Hilton]

I'm not really moving the goalposts though as your first post had the premise of "continuous improvement or you're gone?" I would say all of these are progress on the previous season.

Last season we were 3rd. An acceptable lower finish of 4th/5th is more than enough slack even though I don't buy into this "new system" taking years to grasp.

Fair enough, I get your point now, it just wasn't very well conveyed with "only trophies buy credit".

As for slack only being the CL places, I don't think that's fair as you're making him a victim of his own success last season. I also don't think that results are the only measure of progress, there's a culture of entitlement and laziness to overhaul, there's a new style to learn (which absolutely does take time given where we were starting from), all under the huge pressure that exists at United.

But if you want him gone, who would you replace him with? What would make them successful where you believe that Ten Hag isn't?

 

[pocco]

Well they don't though, do they. Liverpool stuck by Klopp for several seasons before he won a trophy, Arsenal with Arteta, etc. Trigger happy firings just ruins any continuity.

This might be more of a you problem if you can't recognise the difference between what these managers had to deal with and what they delivered.

I personally could see what both Klopp and Arteta were doing from early on. The style of football both introduced early on was good, the type of football that is befitting of a top team. I really wish I could say I can see that here, but I don't. I'd trade top 4 and trophies last season and this season for the feeling that the manager has a good idea and it will eventually pay dividends. A clear tactical plan capable of being part of a winning formula. I could see that with both of Klopp and Arteta.

Not only that but Arteta in particular got rid of all the egos, all the old players, and built a young squad. It doesn't take much common sense to know this will initially have teething problems but will be great if pulled off correctly. Instead we molly coddle our ego players, reward poor performances with new contacts and guaranteed starts, pay big money for players past their best. And to top it all off, a poor style of football.

For me it is obvious why Klopp and Arteta would be given time based on what they did early on. They wouldn't have got that time if they played like us and had the same issues we do.