The same way we could explain Ole's series of wins at his start here, new manager bounce/giddiness, Ange is nothing special, and lot of you will see in time.
Who replaces Ten Hag?
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The same way we could explain Ole's series of wins at his start here, new manager bounce/giddiness, Ange is nothing special, and lot of you will see in time.
I dont think there is really anyone out there at the moment.
Just gotta ride the storm with Ten Hag.
Just gotta ride the storm with Ten Hag.
ETH deserves more time but he has had a big say in bringing in some under performing expensive starting players for us.
There isn't a managerial recruitment solution to the problems at the club. EtH is at least as good as any option available. If United are ever to shake themelves out of this 10-year funk, it will be because the owners have been replaced. Until that day, it'll be more of the same, yo-yoing between 2nd and 7th places and winning little/nothing.
Ten Hag deserves to the end of the season then its time to evaluate his position not before, but who's out there anyway? I think Emery at Villa is underrated, if Qatar buys the club you get the feeling they would want a big name manager like Zidane and that would be an interesting appointment, Zidane would command respect, he's been there and done it both as a player and coach, so in answer to the original post, keep an eye on Zizu if the Sheikh buys the club.
This is gonna be tricky we do multiple posts individually, we may end up taking up the entire thread, so I'll put both in one post.
I'd argue that pretty much everything you've written about Klopp and Arteta, and the good progress they made before it all came together, applies to ETH too. The style that Klopp tried to introduce is very similar to the style that Ten Hag is trying to, the high press to control the game off the ball, and creating opportunities by winning the ball while they opposition is unbalanced. The plan is there, we just haven't mastered it yet.
As for Arteta clearing out the egos, and some of the older players, and the idea that ETH is molly coddling, that's not at all accurate. He's had to put down a mutiny from Ronaldo, another one from Sancho, has cleared out a bunch of other players who were offering nothing or were known dressing room leaks, and has improved the application of others. He's also bringing through younger players alongside experience.
For me, the reasons why Klopp and Arteta got time early on are for the exact same reasons that Ten Hag deserves time, he's trying to replace a culture of entitlement with one of commitment, a mid block counter attacking possession averse style with a proactive high pressure one, and like them has taken several steps in the right direction.
I think you have a very low bar for "playing good football" if you're including Eddie Howe at Newcastle, who again just to be clear, played the lowest amount of football per match under him until the rules were changed to stop them timewasting. If De Zerbi were to come in and "just drill what he's done at Brighton" we'd be awful, because they were already a well drilled team that were comfortable in possession, having been built towards that for a few years under Potter before he got there. De Zerbi would need to do Potter's 3 years of foundational work, along with his year of building on top of that. And that's assuming the huge egos at the club would pay any attention to him, given how little he's done throughout his career.
The issue with your last sentence is that it isn't being forgotten. I'll back any manager we get in, but if we keep chopping and changing we won't get anywhere. We need to start putting more thought into our managerial appointments beyond taking a punt on giving somebody else a chance. Until we do, we won't get anywhere magnificent, we'll be stuck in the same boom-bust cycle of the previous decade.
The way I see it with Arteta is that Arsenal, since Wenger was their manager, always had a vision of what they wanted the identity of their club and their style of football to be. Emery's tenure was a bit of a failure, but Arteta however fit the criteria and their vision. We have had managers with all different kinds of playstyles, Louis who was obsessed with possession, Mou who was defensive minded and in my eyes preferred physicality over technical players. Then we had Ole who let us play well in transition and now ETH who came in with lofty words about wanting us to become one of the best possession based teams, comparing us to City and now all of a sudden wants us to be a great transitional team. I'm not saying you can't be both, but currently we don't even look like one of the two.
Arteta's first two seasons the team lacked serious quality and they didn't have funds like we do. Or did. But it was clear as day what he wanted them to be. I agree with what you're saying, we don't get anywhere with sacking one manager, backing the other who has to rebuild a team to fit his playstyle, sacking him and do it all over again, and again, and again.. I think keeping ETH on is the best course of action for now, but if they do eventually decide to sack him it's important the club chooses to be consistent in what kind of manager they decide to bring in so you don't have to blow another 400m after every 2 seasons for the next 10+ years.
Also.. don't give the manager all this power regarding transfer activities ffs.
Whilst I agree with this, EtH can’t continue to lose games. No manager should be allowed to stay on if they cannot win games especially whilst sticking to tactics that clearly don’t work and also sticking with players who are clearly not playing well.
Unfortunately, yes another manager would probably not take us back to the top due to the people owning and running the club but it doesn’t mean one can’t get us playing better. The fall off from last year is massive right now but it can change of course. If it doesn’t though and we lose 3 of our next 5 games for example something will need to be done.
Let’s hope we start winning from tomorrow as if we fail I see us back in the Europa soon enough.
Someone else made a good point in another thread. If we continue on this 2-3 sack cycle, it will become obvious to any prospective manager that we’re a mess. Granted, that’s already obvious but no top manager will want to tarnish his reputation unless we over paid them, which we are stupid enough to do. So ride out the storm is the best option at this point. I’m already expecting us to sputter to the end of the season around 7-10th place with no silverware. If the club is sold, I would not care of they sacked ETH as long as they have a clear direction and plan to getting is back to the top. However, I’d prefer they sack the front office and give the manager at least one more season working with a proper DoF.
Does the manager have the tools, resources, money to throw out all the big egos ? Does he have the backing? Does he have the money to replace them ?
Arteta did that.. and they bought well
Ten Hag is not the problem, the problems are way bigger than just the manager, its an environment no longer geared for footballing success so ANY manager will struggle here until there's a 100 percent cultural reset from the top down.
Checks last seasons notes*
2 cup finals, deep into a European cup competition, 3rd place finish.
Yeah the only reasonable reaction is to delete the club based on those stats.
Stellar season then, check this seasons notes* the roof falling in, a bit like the ownership, Martinez rushed back, 4 defeats. Not blaming the manager altogether but no manager wins the league here again until there's a reset from the top down, but of course if you think that last season was a successful one then I'm very happy for ya....
If United don't qualify for next season's Champions League, EtH will be fired at the end of the season (and probably replaced with someone less capable). Discussions of this sort are probably best postponed until March/April, when it will be clearer whether we'll need a new manager in the summer or not and who might be available. Nothing will happen in the interim.
I don't think the style of Klopp and ETH is that similar at all. Especially the early doors football he had Liverpool playing where they played a fully committed press, every bit deserving of the "heavy metal football" moniker. We're nothing of the sort. Sometimes we play a half committed but disorganised press. What I see with us for the most part is that, against smaller teams, we commit our attackers and maybe a midfielder to press, whilst the rest maintain a sort of mid to low block position. Against Wolves and Brighton it was very evident as they easily bypassed the low number press and then set about our defence. But quite often we play more of a mid block and look to break. But the other issues are that we look unorganised in defence, for which there is no excuse, and unorganised in attack with no clear plan. We've just been dominated in possession by Burnley... this is not a team that has a good tactical plan in place as that should never happen.
And I don't really agree with your assessment of ETH. He's not really brought through any youngster as of yet, and mostly ignored them post season. He allowed Ronaldo to take the piss last summer and still tried to satisfy him by playing him, even when everybody else said he needed to get rid. He only got rid once the situation became completely untenable. I wouldn't be shouting from the rooftops about his handling of Sancho or De Gea. Even his handling of Maguire is a bit suspect but that's just a personal hunch. None of this is good for the morale of the squad to see their mates getting dragged and humiliated by the new guy in charge. And who has he improved? Some had brief spells last season, as footballers often do, but have all reverted to type or got worse. I can't see a single player flourishing right now. They all look fed up and lacking belief. And putting my amateur psychologist hat on, I don't feel ETH has the personality to click with some of the players we have, that will take them up a level and build their confidence. It's either sink or swim with him. The way Pep, Fergie, Jose, even Poch have handled some younger players just wouldn't happen with ETH.
If you can't admit that Newcastle play good football, particularly last season, then there's no point in discussing this. You have to put aside bias but the difference is clearly there. They absolutely stuffed some teams, whilst we rarely scored 3 goals a game. They must be doing something very very well if they played the least amount of football. And you're just guessing that De Zerbi only succeeded due to having played under Potter. They football was very different. DZ plays a much higher risk possession style, which requires a lot of coaching. He implemented this at other clubs too by the sounds of it. Don't see why we'd need 3 years just because that's how long Potter was at Brighton or whatever you're basing that on. Don't follow that logic. And like I said, a manager doesn't always need to have achievements to connect with a team or players. Half of our players have achieved nothing. I genuinely think they need a more charismatic character that inspires them more and help them overcome their individual hurdles. Somebody that the fans connect with and fall in love with.
I think last season was acceptable but you're saying that least season can't happen because the Glazers are the owners.
We're clearly seeing very different things when we watch, as I'm seeing a very clear plan, an attempt to introduce that high pressing approach, which has been let down by players not committing or making mistakes. As for ETH, you're clearly holding him to a different standard to Arteta. With the former it's bad for morale to put down a mutiny, with the latter it's squashing egos and sorting out the culture. You started this discussion reasonably but the double standards have become quite clear.
As for Newcastle, being the worst time wasters in the league isn't what I'd call good football, no matter a few. Perhaps we have different ideas as to what good football is, and yours is the lowest amount of time actually playing football per match in the league. Stuffing a few teams is nice, but the pattern of negativity is clear. As for DZ, his football is a clear evolution on what was there with Potter before. As for your in depth point about his past, and what he's implemented before, what it "sounds like" is that he got fired after a couple of months at Sassuolo and then relegated with Benevento. How you can suggest either of these guys fit the bill as an inspiring, charismatic character that the fans can connect and fall in love with I can't understand, given how the club has mulched through charismatic legends of the game like LVG and Mou, and a United legend in Ole. The idea that any one manager will just magically make things better is a little too fantastical - no manager we bring in will make things click by themselves, we need a better structure and a consistent vision in the football department that lives on beyond any manager, and to get there will take time and patience.
If ETH secures CL football and we see clear progress of playing style during the season I would keep him.
If our current poor form continues (playing worse than last season) and we finish outside EL football then ETH should be sacked. We should have a pretty good idea in January how things are working out. I would not be the least surprised if we end up in position 8-12.
Has to be Rafa. Or Stevie G.
(Both would have to be bought out from their contracts, but whatever, we do like to piss away money.)
Point being: it's the one thing we haven't tried yet: someone who is the very opposite of what any United fan could possibly want.
(Both would have to be bought out from their contracts, but whatever, we do like to piss away money.)
Point being: it's the one thing we haven't tried yet: someone who is the very opposite of what any United fan could possibly want.
I've come to the conclusion recently that the #1 issue with the club is our entire transfer structure. Managers should have some input of course, but the best clubs in the market identify value regardless of who is coaching their senior team, and strike when those players become available. Likewise, those same teams understand when to move players on and sell for decent prices to ensure that they are recouping some of their transfer spend every summer. Sure we've been fecked some summers because of the Glazers, but regardless of whether the budget is 150m or 200m we seem to very rarely strike deals that are forward looking at a decent price.
Zidane won’t come to us. Hasn’t he already rejected us? I’m sure we wanted him after Ole.
Imagine Stevie G in the dugout and we beat Liverpool at Anfield. The scenes
He doesn't need to be replaced, just needs a top of the range laptop and Football Manager loaded onto it.
Would tend to agree, but Spurs structure was non existant. Director of football was banned from football, their greatest ever player leaves the club and you have a rag tag group who were bought by different managers.
Ange comes in and within no time at all turns them around.
Could just be a new manager bounce, like when Ole won 10 after Jose, but it feels like there is more to Ange given his track record around the world.
And im afraid it is Ange or De Zerbi at Brigton that fans look at and say why are United so dross 18 months into Ten Hag and 400mil spent?
We are even getting beaten by Crystal Palace and Roy Hodgson, who has one foot in the grave. They guy is undefeated at OT in his last 5 visits!
Ten Hag has been given too much responsibility for the affairs of the first team. This is clear in our recruitment strategy. Similarly, he has had to try and build a team in his mould whilst replacing those that either don't work or won't work. I think his static tactics are similar to when Ole was at the club whereby he didn't trust his bench to make any meaningful impact. I think Ten Hag is of a similar opinion on most of his bench options meaning he doesn't react when a team changes it's approach during games.
ETH has to take some of the blame for our poor form, of course. The greatest blame will always lie at the top, however. The Glazers have never appointed football men. We had Woodward as our Chief Executive making footballing decisions when his strength was within the commercial and media side of United.
Then we hire John Murtough as our sporting director. His main role at United was a director of development - a commercial role. His only other position has been with the youth and womens team and comes from the Woodward era. So instead of being a strong DoF he just asks Erik what to do.
You look at Liverpool, Arsenal, City an even Brighton in comparison
Edwards at Liverpool - Spent most of his career as a chief analyst gaining experience and insight into players and tactics.
Edu - Former player, DoF at another club to cut his teeth. Technical director before promotion.
Begiristain - 7 years sporting director at Barca before joining City.
Weir at Brighton - Many years as assistant coach before getting technical director role.
Any decision to hire somebody is a risk but at least bring in somebody who some level of footballing knowledge so we can negotiate, scout and improve our overall offer. Unfortunately this club has no vision for it's on the field endeavours under the Glazers and never will.
ETH has to take some of the blame for our poor form, of course. The greatest blame will always lie at the top, however. The Glazers have never appointed football men. We had Woodward as our Chief Executive making footballing decisions when his strength was within the commercial and media side of United.
Then we hire John Murtough as our sporting director. His main role at United was a director of development - a commercial role. His only other position has been with the youth and womens team and comes from the Woodward era. So instead of being a strong DoF he just asks Erik what to do.
You look at Liverpool, Arsenal, City an even Brighton in comparison
Edwards at Liverpool - Spent most of his career as a chief analyst gaining experience and insight into players and tactics.
Edu - Former player, DoF at another club to cut his teeth. Technical director before promotion.
Begiristain - 7 years sporting director at Barca before joining City.
Weir at Brighton - Many years as assistant coach before getting technical director role.
Any decision to hire somebody is a risk but at least bring in somebody who some level of footballing knowledge so we can negotiate, scout and improve our overall offer. Unfortunately this club has no vision for it's on the field endeavours under the Glazers and never will.
Yep agree with this 100%. The troubles started with the exec team that took over post-Glazer / David Gill. Existing structures stayed in place for a little while and did okay. Fergie then papered over the cracks like with signings like RvP. Now football has totally changed and we either have a bunch of people who know how to do things in the 90s / 00s school of football or undeserving Woodward era numpties like Murtough and Arnold.
Of course the owners can decide to wake up and fix this but they're just interested in collecting their dividend cheques and watching the club value grow through no particular skill of theirs. And honestly, they might make it worse if they got involved.
The only real way to reset is to have an ownership change.
Give it to Giggsy.
All we have is that ten Hag wanted them.
you have no proof that the club decided to go with them after viewing them or that ten Hag said “we need this players and I demand them, it’s my decision.”
Or if he gave an ultimatum.
no proof, so keep pretending you have the proof but you don’t.
I think it should be me.
That's fairly reasonable, although personally I think CL football can be missed if we look like we're really starting to grasp the system.
If we are 10th in January but finish 6th in May after a strong positive finish I can give him another season, not least if our structural problems are not resolved, which they will not be.
Onana and Hojlund and Antony are all extremely weird signings, given their cost. Onana particularly. It does feel like a Ten Hag old boys club and that we aren't bothering to do due diligence on our signings even after Rangnick came in to consult ... it just feels like game over for our club if we never ever learn. Moyes brought in his old boys and got pilloried, but he signed Mata too. van Gaal made some galactico signings who were all crocks. But he stuck Rashford in at least. Solskjaer was the only one who seemed forward thinking with his transfers. We seem to have gone back to Moyes style signings again. It's not good enough.
Can't help but feel it's a bit telling that Pellestri is finally breaking into the first team and doesn't seem a whole lot worse ... and he cost what, £7m under Solskjaer?
@Plant0x84 it won't happen but Carrick seems like a good manager, and an intelligent guy, and has a 100% winning record as Manchester United manager at current. McKenna is doing a great job at Ipswich. If things turn toxic with Ten Hag I can imagine one of those being asked to try to make the step up, but it would be a disaster in terms of fan reaction I expect, even though they've proven themselves to be competent at this point and both know the club inside out. Edit: but I've just seen where Boro are right now so yeah. Last season he did a good job, not so much at the minute. But that's life in the championship.
Ole was let go after losing 5 out of 7 in league. From hindsight, it’s surely a big mistake. We should at least let Ole finish that season. Now, ETH has been in the similar situation. We should not make the same mistake again. Let ETH finish this season at least. But, we never know how stupid the Glazers could be.
I don’t think Carrick or McKenna would come back here right now. Maybe in the future who knows, but at this point it would likely be career suicide.
We are already out of the top four race.
Let's be honest about that. We are three games behind City, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs.
Who honestly believes we are going to make that up on any of those teams?
You or I may not think United has much chance of qualifying for next season's UCL, but it is not true to say that we are definitively out of that race at this stage. Until that changes, EtH is safe.
5th place is probably enough thos year. While Unuted don't look like a top 5 team at the moment, that could still change (would likely require finishing ahead of all of Newcastle, Brighton, Villa etc, which looks difficult but not impossible). As I said above, if we fail to do that then EtH will be fired next summer, but he is safe until we're mathematically out of it, which, even in the worst case scenario, won't be before April/May.
This whole conversation is premature by at least 6-7 months.
Yawn!
McKenna would never want to come this mess of a club after seeing how things work here.
I’m going to enjoy our first home game for a few years in the champions league, whilst remembering Ten Haag inherited a team in 6th that was in a downward spiral and took them to 3rd. Despite the start to the season. A massive achievement.
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