Who is better, RVP or Suarez?

Henrik Larsson said:
That's true, but you forget to mention that RVP is one of the most injury prone players out there. I believe Robben actually played more league games between 2002/2012 than RVP did between 2002/2012, while everybody in Holland would say Robben is the most injury prone player. So it's not like RVP has had a perfect platform. God knows how good he would've been if he hadn't missed 50% of the matches for years in a row.

I think Suarez is being a bit overrated because of his so called flat track bullying. Suarez wasn't really that much better at Liverpool this season than on his best days at Ajax. At Ajax, Real, Barcelona, United, Arsenal were al doubting if he would be good enough, yet suddenly all the top teams are interested and he is worth 82 million for Barca? Only because he's had such a brilliant 2013/2014 season. Talking about a platform, didn't he score all 30 goals against non top 4 teams, he had the platform to score against all teams right?

As for RVP: goals for Holland against Ivory Coast in 2006, France in 2008, Germany in 2012 and obviously 2 vs Spain this tournament? Suarez did well against England, who roughly had only 50% of the quality of the Spain side RVP trashed.

Don't forget his Champions League goals for Arsenal against Barcelona (2-1 at the Emeriates) or vs. Man. United, his brace against Dortmund that had dominated the Bundesliga that year, plus another against Dortmund, so that was 3 goals in 2 matches against them. List goes on and on.
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van Persie scored two against Spain in a great team performance where Spain were awful even by their lowering standards. He took his goals well, but wasn't anything special, and Robben stole the show. Suarez scored two in a Uruguay team who weren't on top by much, against an England side playing better than Spain did against Netherlands. Suarez was the difference.

van Persie scored one against Barcelona, one against us (set up by Chamberlain) in a defeat, a brace against Dortmund, and a hat-trick against Chelsea. Most of them didn't see him 'destroy' anyone. That's pretty much it against top tier, and the list doesn't go on and on.
Heck, even the Chelsea hat-trick was in the year when Chelsea were rubbish and finished sixth, so it's barely better than Suarez' two in Liverpool's 5-0 versus Tottenham, where he also contributed three assists.

Two of them are in the Champions League, and Suarez hasn't had that opportunity yet.
I'm yet to see any evidence that van Persie's best is better than Suarez' best.
 
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Annahnomoss said:
I disagree, RVP never created as many chances for himself as Suarez did last season. Every time Suarez gets the ball it is dangerous whereas RVP needs the team to set him up with the chance so he can turn it in to a goal.

Rarely do you see RVP receive the ball and even try to beat the two defenders with his dribbling or pace, he just finds a pass and makes a run. Suarez is an outstanding dribbler and RVP even at his last season in Arsenal he made less than half the dribbles per game of Suarez. RVP is an all round goalscorer much more than a one man army, Robben/Suarez/Messi I think are at that level above who can create their own chances without the need of teammates.
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I agree, I don't think Van Persie has ever had a season as good as Suarez was last year.
 
Cheesy said:
RVP's older though by 4 years, so has naturally been around for longer. If Suarez can avoid doing something stupid to get banned, there's nothing to suggest he's going to drop off his current level at all presuming Barca find a way to use him to the best of his ability. It's arguable that RVP is less likely to be at that level you're talking about now because of his age, although I agree with the rest of your post.
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I think RVP has already lost his explosiveness which allowed him to play as a winger earlier in his career and currently he doesn't rely on it much. It is the only reason I think he can remain at this level for a while if he avoids serious injuries, but it is a fair point that a player above 30 is always in risk of declining.

Suarez has just kept this extraordinary level for two seasons though and both were under a manager who built his entire team to get the best out of Suarez. I am not so sure that Suarez can keep this level when you remove the perfect system, team and what appears to be the perfect manager for him.

Barcelona won't be built around him at all, it is possible he ends up playing out wide and no matter if he plays centrally Messi will be the one receiving most balls to work with.

He will also have competition from Pedro who will be that risk free and stable option so when he puts out one of his lunatic antics again he needs Barcelona to react with as much support and defense as Liverpool did. I am not very sure they will repeatedly do so though.
 
Whilst I still maintain that Bucky O'Hare is overrated and not deserving of the level of praise he gets, I'm willing to accept that debates like this are valid. However, everyone saying things like 'easily', 'much better', 'not even close' in saying he's better than RVP, are talking unmitigated bollocks.
 
Speak said:
van Persie scored two against Spain in a great team performance where Spain were awful even by their lowering standards. He took his goals well, but Robben stole the show. Suarez scored two in a team who weren't on top by much, against an England side playing no worse than Spain did against Netherlands. Suarez was the difference.

van Persie scored one against Barcelona, one against us (set up by Chamberlain) in a defeat, a brace against Dortmund, and a hat-trick against Chelsea. Most of them didn't see him 'destroy' anyone. That's pretty much it against top tier, and the list doesn't go on and on.
Heck, even the Chelsea hat-trick was in the year when Chelsea were rubbish and finished sixth, so it's barely better than Suarez' two in Liverpool's 5-0 versus Tottenham, where he also contributed three assists.

Two of them are in the Champions League, and Suarez hasn't had that opportunity yet.
I'm yet to see any evidence that van Persie's best days are better than Suarez' best days.
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I'm sorry but I stopped when you said Spain were awful. Spain was on the verge of making the 2-0 (Silva) and played really well until RVP saved the match with an out of this world goal. England was never anywhere near the level Spain reached in the first half. And then suddenly Robben stole the show? Lol.

I hope people keep believing Suarez is better than RVP, because you should believe whatever makes you happy. Personally I think it's pretty close, sure, but anyone giving the edge to Suarez in terms of potential or past performances is laughable. I'd say he doesn't have more potential than RVP and he hasn't performed on the same level yet. So, RVP all the way.

Eboue said:
Do I also need to make a case for the existence of gravity?
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So you're just not capable of making a solid point to prove why Suarez is sooooo much better? Too bad.
 
Eriksen said:
:lol:

Wow, compared to him? He is most peoples third best player in the world and the best player in the league. I despise him but he's a sensational player.

Seriously, RvP wasn't even remotely close to Suarez last year and even the year before Suarez was on course to outscore him before his next act of stupidity.

Van Persie is a better person, a better professional but Suarez is the better player. Comfortably, right now.
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Why? He only scored the majority of his goals against the lower opposition and consistently drew up blanks against the bigger sides.

RvP had an injury ridden. Unfair to compare that season to Suarez'. It would be akin to comparing Wilshere's and Yaya's seasons.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
I'm sorry but I stopped when you said Spain were awful. Spain was on the verge of making the 2-0 (Silva) and played really well until RVP saved the match with an out of this world goal. England was never anywhere near the level Spain reached in the first half. And then suddenly Robben stole the show? Lol.

I hope people keep believing Suarez is better than RVP, because you should believe whatever makes you happy. Personally I think it's pretty close, sure, but anyone giving the edge to Suarez in terms of potential or past performances is laughable. I'd say he doesn't have more potential than RVP and he hasn't performed on the same level yet. So, RVP all the way.
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I'm not sure if we were watching the same game:

- Sneidjer had a great early chance, but missed.
-Spain settled and scored a penalty.
They then didn't go on to really dominate, they sat back/got casual and Netherlands grew into the game and got some possession.
-Despite this, Spain still carved the best chance, which Silva missed.
- Van Persie scored just before half time. Robben scored early 2nd half, and Spain were awful from that point on. A couple of well taken goals from Van Persie - nothing more; nothing less.

You've barely come up with a good example of van Persie 'destroying' a top tier team, despite claiming that there were plenty.
- The Spain game was a great team performance, whereas Suarez made the difference with his two goals.
- The Chelsea hat-trick (Chelsea finished 6th anyway) is equalled by Suarez' double and 3 assists versus 6th placed Tottenham.
- The goal against us (in the 2-1 defeat) is nothing noteworthy. You might as well bring up Suarez' last minute equaliser versus Chelsea (2-2)
- He scored one against Barcelona, and won the game against Dortmund with two goals, but Suarez hasn't had the chance to play Champions League football seriously.

There's really no shame in van Persie not being as good as Suarez.
 
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Henrik Larsson said:
But ability alone, what abilities does Suarez have that RVP hasn't beside a better acceleration? RVP is bigger and stronger, so that evens it out, but just talking footballing abilities?
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Dribbling in tight spaces, Suarez is probably the best in the world bar Messi. When he gets the ball on the turn around the box, he is very dangerous and skillful and for a striker to have an ability like that marks him up there with the best. Aguero is also very good at this, not as good at keeping the ball close to his feet, but his strength makes up for it in them situations.

RvP is just phenomenal at losing defenders by doing feints and turns, also his off the balls runs are exceptional and these account for most of his goals. He's also very good in the air and of course at finishing with both feet.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
So you're just not capable of making a solid point to prove why Suarez is sooooo much better? Too bad.
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He scores more, he creates more chances, he's younger, he works more for the team, he can lead the line or play off another striker, he plays with worse teammates, etc


What that really neccesary? I am sure you knew that already. The point of the gravity mark wasn't that I can't explain it. Because anyone with access to Wikipedia can explain it. The point was that some things are sufficiently clear that explaining them isn't neccesary.
 
Cinja el Shagawa said:
Location:The Netherlands
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Yeah, but i also despise Feyenoord and like Ajax. So whats your point? Everyone in the world knows that RvP is technically more gifted and a better FOOTBALLER. He is simply better with the ball. That doesn't mean he is a better striker, finisher or even more successful.
 
Rezyuz said:
Yeah, but i also despise Feyenoord and like Ajax. So whats your point? Everyone in the world knows that RvP is technically more gifted and a better FOOTBALLER. He is simply better with the ball. That doesn't mean he is a better striker, finisher or even more successful.
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He's not a better footballer. van Persie's cleaner with the ball at his foot and more technically gifted though, we can agree on that.
 
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RVP in his last season with Arsenal and maybe in his first season with us was as good as Suarez last season, Suarez is way flashier in his style of play though. That, combined with his general antics and Liverpools shock title challenge, meant that he got a lot more column inches and plaudits last season than RVP did when he was tearing up the league.

At this moment Suarez is clearly the better player, not really arguable. Having said that though I have faith in RVP reproducing his world class form under LVG if he stays fit, but time's not really on his side whilst Suarez still has a few years before his pace and sharpness start to go and he loses a lot of his natural game.
 
If we're looking at an entire career or we include all round behaviour then there's an argument for RvP. However if we're talking about pure talent at their very peak, I think Suarez last season was better than any season RvP has managed.

And obviously right here right now Suarez is the better player.
 
Rezyuz said:
Yeah, but i also despise Feyenoord and like Ajax. So whats your point? Everyone in the world knows that RvP is technically more gifted and a better FOOTBALLER. He is simply better with the ball. That doesn't mean he is a better striker, finisher or even more successful.
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Even though I think this is wrong its still so irrelevant. What does being a better "footballer" even count for? The better footballer is the one better on the pitch. Is Luiz a better footballer than Vidic just because he's good on the ball?
 
Eriksen said:
Seriously, RvP wasn't even remotely close to Suarez last year and even the year before Suarez was on course to outscore him before his next act of stupidity.
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Before his wonderful biting technique applied to a human test subject, he scored like one goal in five matches.
 
Eboue said:
He scores more, he creates more chances, he's younger, he works more for the team, he can lead the line or play off another striker, he plays with worse teammates, etc


What that really neccesary? I am sure you knew that already. The point of the gravity mark wasn't that I can't explain it. Because anyone with access to Wikipedia can explain it. The point was that some things are sufficiently clear that explaining them isn't neccesary.
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Is arbitrairy an English word? I think so, but what I mean is: the bolded parts are not exactly facts/they are very suggestive.

He scores more? Depends on how you look at the stats + way more goals against lesser opponents for Suarez.

He creates more chances? So the best player is the player who creates the most chances? Random stat in favour of Suarez.

He's younger? Messi/Ronaldo Luis Nazario de Lima were very young when they were best of the world, Zidane was pretty old when he came into his prime. What's age got to do with it?

He can lead the line or play off another striker? RVP can't? Yes he can, so why do you say this?

He plays with worse teammates? At Ajax Suarez had better teammates + a different position than RVP at Feyenoord. RVP's best season goal wise was at Arsenal, pretty comparable to last years Liverpool in terms of quality. So again, not really true.
 
I believe people tend to forget how good RvP was in 2011 and 2012 in the light of Suarez current season.

He was Arsenal's main man and possibly the only one to make a difference in a tough game.

He literally scored in every game he played. He was ridiculously good. Suarez is capable of putting 5 past a side, but in the tough games he was not up to par.

I think there was some stats in the years past that at some point he has scored 23 goals, 19 of which against bottom half teams.
 
Annahnomoss said:
I think RVP has already lost his explosiveness which allowed him to play as a winger earlier in his career and currently he doesn't rely on it much. It is the only reason I think he can remain at this level for a while if he avoids serious injuries, but it is a fair point that a player above 30 is always in risk of declining.

Suarez has just kept this extraordinary level for two seasons though and both were under a manager who built his entire team to get the best out of Suarez. I am not so sure that Suarez can keep this level when you remove the perfect system, team and what appears to be the perfect manager for him.
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To be fair to Suarez, RVP's early career injury problems mean that he's only really had a 3-4 year spell himself where he was consistently one of the best strikers around. Before that, he was clearly talented but was injured too much to ever be considered brilliant. If Suarez has another very good season or two, he'll have comfortably matched RVP in that regard.

Although I agree that he's going to have a lot of problems at Barca for where he plays etc and with his antics, which is why I'm not convinced it's a good move for him to make as a player.
 
Eriksen said:
Even though I think this is wrong its still so irrelevant. What does being a better "footballer" even count for? The better footballer is the one better on the pitch. Is Luiz a better footballer than Vidic just because he's good on the ball?
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Uhm yeah he is, but vidic is a better defender. Which makes him a better player at that position. Pretty much just like i stated that Suarez is most likely the better striker.

How hard is that to understand?
 
Henrik Larsson said:
Is arbitrairy an English word? I think so, but what I mean is: the bolded parts are not exactly facts/they are very suggestive.

He scores more? Depends on how you look at the stats + way more goals against lesser opponents for Suarez.

He creates more chances? So the best player is the player who creates the most chances? Random stat in favour of Suarez.

He's younger? Messi/Ronaldo Luis Nazario de Lima were very young when they were best of the world, Zidane was pretty old when he came into his prime. What's age got to do with it?

He can lead the line or play off another striker? RVP can't? Yes he can, so why do you say this?

He plays with worse teammates? At Ajax Suarez had better teammates + a different position than RVP at Feyenoord. RVP's best season goal wise was at Arsenal, pretty comparable to last years Liverpool in terms of quality. So again, not really true.
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Oh gosh, I don't know if I have the patience for this but here goes...


Whether Suarez or Van Persie scores more doesn't depend on which way you look at it. He either does or he does not.

How is chances created a random stay? I'm not a football genius but it seems pretty important to me.

Means van Persie is in his twilight years whole Suarez can at least maintain this level if not improve.

I don't think van Persie could have played the role Suarez did this year, he doesn't have the pace for it.

I wouldn't know about their time in the eredivisie (nor would I care since it was so long ago and they were very different players) but I think it's not really arguable that Suarez played with worse teammates than van Persie did in their time in the premier league.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I believe people tend to forget how good RvP was in 2011 and 2012 in the light of Suarez current season.

He was Arsenal's main man and possibly the only one to make a difference in a tough game.

He literally scored in every game he played. He was ridiculously good. Suarez is capable of putting 5 past a side, but in the tough games he was not up to par.

I think there was some stats in the years past that at some point he has scored 23 goals, 19 of which against bottom half teams.
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Eboue said:
No, he literally did not.
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He scored 30 in 38 league games for Arsenal (his best record). Suarez scored 31 in 33 last year.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
Is arbitrairy an English word? I think so, but what I mean is: the bolded parts are not exactly facts/they are very suggestive.

He scores more? Depends on how you look at the stats + way more goals against lesser opponents for Suarez.

He creates more chances? So the best player is the player who creates the most chances? Random stat in favour of Suarez.

He's younger? Messi/Ronaldo Luis Nazario de Lima were very young when they were best of the world, Zidane was pretty old when he came into his prime. What's age got to do with it?

He can lead the line or play off another striker? RVP can't? Yes he can, so why do you say this?

He plays with worse teammates? At Ajax Suarez had better teammates + a different position than RVP at Feyenoord. RVP's best season goal wise was at Arsenal, pretty comparable to last years Liverpool in terms of quality. So again, not really true.
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He scores more currently. Overall through their careers you can argue Van Persie but this is right here and right now and currently Suarez is scoring at a far higher rate than Van Persie. The "lesser opponents" argument is actually pretty irrelevant. Suarez against lesser opponents if you watch him takes on a team role, works ridiculously hard and harries the opposition in a way RvP doesn't. He sacrifices a lot against the bigger sides through his work ethic and selflessness.

Erm, as a forward player creating chances is very important. Suarez was nearly top assister in the league last season. A striker than can score a bucket-load and lay on a load of goals as well is brilliant. Only other player I can think of off the top of my head that does it at Suarez's level is Messi. Random stat? Yeah, the creating of chances for a forward player is so random.

What's age got to do with it? The point is Suarez is only getting better and better and still has many years at his physical peak. He's got better with age, Van Persie has looked off it of late and is a few years older. Obviously not all players follow the pattern of getting better with age and declining after 32 or so, but its true of many.

Suarez was able to share goals with Sturridge very well and strike up and understanding, the likes of which Van Persie never struck with Rooney.

Didn't Suarez do better in the Eredivisie than RvP? Also, I pretty much agree with the rest. I don't think Liverpool of last season quality wise were worse than Van Persie's best goalscoring season.

Suarez is the better player. Only a United fan would ever, and I mean ever choose him on the team on playing merit alone. Suarez does more for the team, scares opponents more with his harrying, is more capable of scoring out of nothing, is a better finisher, better physically in that he has better acceleration and is stronger on the ball. He's also more creative and a better passer of the ball.

Comparing the two players as of now, there's not even an argument. Suarez is much better. Comparing them over their careers and there's not much in it.
 
Eriksen said:
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Comparing the two players as of now, there's not even an argument. Suarez is much better. Comparing them over their careers and there's not much in it.
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All solid points, and truthful ones at that. I only erased them for the sake of space.

The Suarez of 2013/2014 was better than Van Persie at his peak. If Suarez goes on to have another one or two brilliant seasons, he'll undoubtedly have the better career. But in terms of pure footballing ability there's no debate really.
 
Cereal Killer said:
All solid points, and truthful ones at that. I only erased them for the sake of space.

The Suarez of 2013/2014 was better than Van Persie at his peak. If Suarez goes on to have another one or two brilliant seasons, he'll undoubtedly have the better career. But in terms of pure footballing ability there's no debate really.
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You mean technical ability?
 
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Henrik Larsson said:
But ability alone, what abilities does Suarez have that RVP hasn't beside a better acceleration? RVP is bigger and stronger, so that evens it out, but just talking footballing abilities?
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Suarez's dribbling ability is by far superior to RVP's. Also as someone else pointed out, RVP is taller, but he's not stronger than Suarez. Suarez is the better footballer, and it's not even really debatable.
 
For the record I'd still rather have RvP at Spurs than Suarez. Whilst I've repeated on numerous occasions that on footballing ability alone only United fans would choose Van Persie, when taking in to account what kind of person Suarez is I wouldn't want him at the club.
 
A goal is a goal as far as I'm concerned just as 3pts versus Hull have the same values of 3 pts vs Man City (duh). So for me the argument that a player scores more big goals than another is completely meaningless when it comes to league football and let's be honest we're using the league to compare Suarez and RVP. On that basis then, there is no shame, despite all the hatred felt, to admit that Suarez is simply better than RVP.
 
Eboue said:
Oh gosh, I don't know if I have the patience for this but here goes...
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Whether Suarez or Van Persie scores more doesn't depend on which way you look at it. He either does or he does not.

Yeah but it is suggestive in the way that the question is: who is the better player? The question is not 'who scores more goals' nor is the best player always the one who scores the most goals. Plus RVP has had some sick goalscoring runs.


How is chances created a random stay? I'm not a football genius but it seems pretty important to me.

But you'd have agree with me that it would only be an important stat if they would play on the same position, in the seam team, at the same time. Different circumstances like team tactics/set up and opponents strategy can have a huge influence on those stats.


Means van Persie is in his twilight years whole Suarez can at least maintain this level if not improve.

Yeah or RVP is like Pirlo and he becomes even better with age, since his game isn't particularly based on pase it's possible. Suarez on the other hand could lose some of that pace and fade away.

I don't think van Persie could have played the role Suarez did this year, he doesn't have the pace for it.

Well RVP played anywhere upfront for Holland and Arsenal and never looked out of depth anywhere.


And we could go on and on, now I'm getting tired too. I read somehwere only a United fan could say RVP is better than Suarez. Well, don't really know too much English Liverpool fans, but some of my Dutch friends support Liverpool and none of them thinks Suarez is better than RVP. You might say they're biased because they're Dutch.

But on the other hand you could say two of them are Ajax fans and they hate RVP and Feyenoord. They've all seen both Suarez and RVP since they were 18 and everyone agrees RVP is a bit better.
 
Hold on, someone made this thread THIS year? I just assumed it was, like, 2 years old.

It's Suarez.
 
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