Who had the better season? Arsenal or Man utd?

roonster09 said:
Before world cup their record was 12-1-1, making them #1 team in PL with 37 points, 5 points ahead of City.
After world cup their record was 15-5-5, making them #3 team in PL with 47 points, 10 behind City and 2 behind ManUtd.

If you break it down into first half and second half of the season,

First half - 16-2-1, #1 team in PL with 50 points, 8 points ahead of City.
Second half - 10-4-5, 34 points, #5 team in PL behind City, Liverpool, ManUtd, Villa.

Lot of Arsenal fans think first half is the normal level and they underperformed in second half, other fans think they might have over-performed and will be back to their "true level", which is second half/post world cup form.

I think they will qualify for CL easily, if I'm not wrong top 5 will qualify for CL. Second half Liverpool were the second best team, can see them battling with City and the others fighting for the remaining spots.
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To answer the original thread question, it depends on your perspective. If you are a football fan or historian who wants to talk about trophies only and not look anywhere else (which is fine by the way), then of course its United and West Ham who have had better seasons. And from this angle I'd say West Ham has been the best out of the three teams (United, West Ham, Arsenal), because the Hammers' trophy carries more weight than United's.

If you look at the actual better team performances this season and who looks likely to compete with the biggest teams now, then its Arsenal who had the better season. Because Arsenal were one of the best teams in Europe in 22/23.

There are a few reasons why Arsenal dropped off during the second half of the last season.

Injuries, fatigue, lack of depth played a role yes. But it was also a factor of teams "respecting" Arsenal more, and what Arsenal were as a football team. You cannot press Arsenal high, or try to play them at football was the big lesson learnt. When most teams resorted back to deep defending, and adding physicality to their game and just looking for counter attacks, was when you started seeing Arsenal struggle more. Examples of this was against Newcastle at the Emirates, where Newcastle literally changed tactics during the first half. Other examples were Everton away (deep defending and physicality), United at the Emirates, Brentford at the Emirates.

What determines Arsenal's fortunes next season will the following;

How much quality depth they add. Particular in midfield and defence.
How much physicality they add to their team.
Do they add another highly skilled forward, who can cover close to Saka's level.

That's why you see names like Rice, Caicedo, Cancelo, Tapsoba, Diaby being linked. These signings, added to the current core, take Arsenal from a half season 50 point team to a full season 100 point team.

If they answer the above three questions significantly, they will dominate in the league again next season. Along with City again, and probably joined by Liverpool, United and Newcastle as well.
 
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roonster09 said:
Before world cup their record was 12-1-1, making them #1 team in PL with 37 points, 5 points ahead of City.
After world cup their record was 15-5-5, making them #3 team in PL with 47 points, 10 behind City and 2 behind ManUtd.

If you break it down into first half and second half of the season,

First half - 16-2-1, #1 team in PL with 50 points, 8 points ahead of City.
Second half - 10-4-5, 34 points, #5 team in PL behind City, Liverpool, ManUtd, Villa.

Lot of Arsenal fans think first half is the normal level and they underperformed in second half, other fans think they might have over-performed and will be back to their "true level", which is second half/post world cup form.

I think they will qualify for CL easily, if I'm not wrong top 5 will qualify for CL. Second half Liverpool were the second best team, can see them battling with City and the others fighting for the remaining spots.
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Truth is, we are where we deserved to finish. We aren't a 90+ point team yet that the first half of the season suggests, and i think we are better than the 2nd half of the season form.

2nd half will have had both City games in it i presume, so if you move 1 of them to the first half where it should have been then it starts to even out a little. Obviously we want to strengthen the squad further to help stop those end of season downturns when injuries happen.
 
roonster09 said:
Before world cup their record was 12-1-1, making them #1 team in PL with 37 points, 5 points ahead of City.
After world cup their record was 15-5-5, making them #3 team in PL with 47 points, 10 behind City and 2 behind ManUtd.

If you break it down into first half and second half of the season,

First half - 16-2-1, #1 team in PL with 50 points, 8 points ahead of City.
Second half - 10-4-5, 34 points, #5 team in PL behind City, Liverpool, ManUtd, Villa.

Lot of Arsenal fans think first half is the normal level and they underperformed in second half, other fans think they might have over-performed and will be back to their "true level", which is second half/post world cup form.

I think they will qualify for CL easily, if I'm not wrong top 5 will qualify for CL. Second half Liverpool were the second best team, can see them battling with City and the others fighting for the remaining spots.
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Liverpools midfield is gash, even with MacAllister. Salah and VVD a year older. Its also AFCON this year so no Salah
 
roonster09 said:
Before world cup their record was 12-1-1, making them #1 team in PL with 37 points, 5 points ahead of City.
After world cup their record was 15-5-5, making them #3 team in PL with 47 points, 10 behind City and 2 behind ManUtd.

If you break it down into first half and second half of the season,

First half - 16-2-1, #1 team in PL with 50 points, 8 points ahead of City.
Second half - 10-4-5, 34 points, #5 team in PL behind City, Liverpool, ManUtd, Villa.

Lot of Arsenal fans think first half is the normal level and they underperformed in second half, other fans think they might have over-performed and will be back to their "true level", which is second half/post world cup form.

I think they will qualify for CL easily, if I'm not wrong top 5 will qualify for CL. Second half Liverpool were the second best team, can see them battling with City and the others fighting for the remaining spots.
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Its easy to pick periods of the season to make an argument. There was a 6-week window in the league were Villa picked up the most points. Its not how it works though. Season is 38 matches long and in that period teams will blow hot and cold. Overall teams end up where they belong. You cant just discount our opening two thirds of the season becasue it didnt fit the narrative we would 'finish 6th'.
 
MonsieurGooner said:
Liverpools midfield is gash, even with MacAllister. Salah and VVD a year older. Its also AFCON this year so no Salah
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Liverpool will sign at least 1 more midfielder, if not 2, perhaps the likes of Thuram and Kone. So they'll certainly be back to having lots of legs / energy in midfield.

It will be interesting to see if they persevere with Trent tucking into midfield, and if they can setup tactically to help mask the weakness down that side then.

I reckon they are on for a good season though.
 
Zagoon said:
To answer the original thread question, it depends on your perspective. If you are a football fan or historian who wants to talk about trophies only and not look anywhere else (which is fine by the way), then of course its United and West Ham who have had better seasons. And from this angle I'd say West Ham has been the best out of the three teams (United, West Ham, Arsenal), because the Hammers' trophy carries more weight than United's.

If you look at the actual better team performances this season and who looks likely to compete with the biggest teams now, then its Arsenal who had the better season. Because Arsenal were one of the best teams in Europe in 22/23.

There are a few reasons why Arsenal dropped off during the second half of the last season.

Injuries, fatigue, lack of depth played a role yes. But it was also a factor of teams "respecting" Arsenal more, and what Arsenal were as a football team. You cannot press Arsenal high, or try to play them at football was the big lesson learnt. When most teams resorted back to deep defending, and adding physicality to their game and just looking for counter attacks, was when you started seeing Arsenal struggle more. Examples of this was against Newcastle at the Emirates, where Newcastle literally changed tactics during the first half. Other examples were Everton away (deep defending and physicality), United at the Emirates, Brentford at the Emirates.

What determines Arsenal's fortunes next season will the following;

How much quality depth they add. Particular in midfield and defence.
How much physicality they add to their team.
Do they add another highly skilled forward, who can cover close to Saka's level.

That's why you see names like Rice, Caicedo, Cancelo, Tapsoba, Diaby being linked. These signings, added to the current core, take Arsenal from a half season 50 point team to a full season 100 point team.

If they answer the above three questions significantly, they will dominate in the league again next season. Along with City again, and probably joined by Liverpool, United and Newcastle as well.
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Arsenal probably played least games among the top 3, if I'm not wrong they played around 14-15 less games than ManUtd and ManCity. For most weeks, especially in the second half you played a game a week. Not sure about the fatigue part.

Also you were very lucky with injuries, 7 out of your best 11 started 34+ league games, that's very rare thing to happen. Partey would have started 30+ too but he was dropped at the end of season, so he ended up with 28.

I don't think Fatigue or injuries are valid excuses for Arsenal's second half form. if I remember correctly you lost only Saliba from your best 11 when you stated to drop points consistently.

Also the last point, Arsenal can add any number of players they want, they won't be a 100 point team. There is a reason why only one team achieved that milestone.
 
MonsieurGooner said:
Its easy to pick periods of the season to make an argument. There was a 6-week window in the league were Villa picked up the most points. Its not how it works though. Season is 38 matches long and in that period teams will blow hot and cold. Overall teams end up where they belong. You cant just discount our opening two thirds of the season becasue it didnt fit the narrative we would 'finish 6th'.
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It's not periods of the season, it's before and after world cup and first 19 games vs second 19 games. It's not like I picked run of 6 games to make some point. 19 games or games after world cup (24 games) is a significant sample size.

No one said Arsenal didn't deserve to finish 2nd and no I didn't ignore any part of the season. Looks like you have issues if anyone says anything except how awesome Arsenal are.
 
GoonerBear said:
Truth is, we are where we deserved to finish. We aren't a 90+ point team yet that the first half of the season suggests, and i think we are better than the 2nd half of the season form.

2nd half will have had both City games in it i presume, so if you move 1 of them to the first half where it should have been then it starts to even out a little. Obviously we want to strengthen the squad further to help stop those end of season downturns when injuries happen.
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Yeah, you finished where you deserved, not arguing against that.

Tbf I'm not even arguing any point, I just made an observation and gave break up.
 
roonster09 said:
Yeah, you finished where you deserved, not arguing against that.

Tbf I'm not even arguing any point, I just made an observation and gave break up.
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Yeah, it was certainly a reasonable point and a reasonable question asked. To be honest, i do understand why people are questioning where Arsenal will finish next season. Competition will be tough, and we need to get the transfer window right, and we need to show it's form we can maintain over a longer period.

From my point of view, i try to give reasonable responses to as to why i think Arsenal can maintain a good league output next season, and hopefully improve in the cups, without ever thinking it's a given like some might think it is.

We have to prove it all again, and that's fair enough. We are on a rivals forum, so there will obviously be bias, and the Arsenal fans in response can certainly be biased back. It is what it is, and certainly makes for a good discussion as long as people are reasonable in their responses.
 
GoonerBear said:
Yeah, it was certainly a reasonable point and a reasonable question asked. To be honest, i do understand why people are questioning where Arsenal will finish next season. Competition will be tough, and we need to get the transfer window right, and we need to show it's form we can maintain over a longer period.

From my point of view, i try to give reasonable responses to as to why i think Arsenal can maintain a good league output next season, and hopefully improve in the cups, without ever thinking it's a given like some might think it is.

We have to prove it all again, and that's fair enough. We are on a rivals forum, so there will obviously be bias, and the Arsenal fans in response can certainly be biased back. It is what it is, and certainly makes for a good discussion as long as people are reasonable in their responses.
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I think people are ignoring Liverpool's form, they improved a lot in second half and won't be surprised if we see them continue doing that.

Arsenal have good team and a young team too, so it's natural to expect them to improve with one year added experience but I think they will be below Liverpool next season. Liverpool bounced back superbly last time they had shit season, can see them doing that again.
 
roonster09 said:
Arsenal probably played least games among the top 3, if I'm not wrong they played around 14-15 less games than ManUtd and ManCity. For most weeks, especially in the second half you played a game a week. Not sure about the fatigue part.

Also you were very lucky with injuries, 7 out of your best 11 started 34+ league games, that's very rare thing to happen. Partey would have started 30+ too but he was dropped at the end of season, so he ended up with 28.

I don't think Fatigue or injuries are valid excuses for Arsenal's second half form. if I remember correctly you lost only Saliba from your best 11 when you stated to drop points consistently.

Also the last point, Arsenal can add any number of players they want, they won't be a 100 point team. There is a reason why only one team achieved that milestone.
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I will concede on the fatigue front, since Arsenal played less games in the end. I do not want to get into a deeper discussion on this one.

As for being lucky with injuries, this is incorrect. Arsenal were not lucky at all because it was injuries to key players that contributed to Arsenal's title loss in the end. Players like Partey, Jesus, Zinchenko, Saliba, Tomiyasu, Nketiah, Nelson and Elneny were absent for different periods and this presented challenges to adapt to. It was Arsenal's football quality that allowed them to maintain consistency for a lot of the season.

And on the Saliba point specifically. You will learn when you start to push up your defensive lines up next season, how important your defensive 5 are in your football system. Losing Saliba is like Liverpool losing VVD for the season in 20/21, or Liverpool losing the legs of Fabinho in 22/23. You lose players in your base and you struggle. Its why Pep bought so many defenders when he got to City. Its why SAF said famously that defenses win you titles.

Finally to respond to your 100 point "not gonna happen" response. Im not speaking from a position of hope and prayer when I say that Arsenal can reach 100 points plus if they add properly to their squad. Arsenal are playing at a very high level now, and if they can build consistency at that level with quality depth, and fix the areas where they lack technically (there are areas they are short) they will jump up another 15 points. I will give you my verdict at the end of the transfer window.

I know its difficult to accept that Arsenal can be an excellent team again, but unfortunately they are moving in that direction again and are probably not going away anytime soon.

The good news is, that Ten Hag has the very same philosophy, with his specific additional touch, and will get United to an excellent standard as well.
 
Zagoon said:
I will concede on the fatigue front, since Arsenal played less games in the end. I do not want to get into a deeper discussion on this one.

As for being lucky with injuries, this is incorrect. Arsenal were not lucky at all because it was injuries to key players that contributed to Arsenal's title loss in the end. Players like Partey, Jesus, Zinchenko, Saliba, Tomiyasu, Nketiah, Nelson and Elneny were absent for different periods and this presented challenges to adapt to. It was Arsenal's football quality that allowed them to maintain consistency for a lot of the season.

And on the Saliba point specifically. You will learn when you start to push up your defensive lines up next season, how important your defensive 5 are in your football system. Losing Saliba is like Liverpool losing VVD for the season in 20/21, or Liverpool losing the legs of Fabinho in 22/23. You lose players in your base and you struggle. Its why Pep bought so many defenders when he got to City. Its why SAF said famously that defenses win you titles.

Finally to respond to your 100 point "not gonna happen" response. Im not speaking from a position of hope and prayer when I say that Arsenal can reach 100 points plus if they add properly to their squad. Arsenal are playing at a very high level now, and if they can build consistency at that level with quality depth, and fix the areas where they lack technically (there are areas they are short) they will jump up another 15 points. I will give you my verdict at the end of the transfer window.

I know its difficult to accept that Arsenal can be an excellent team again, but unfortunately they are moving in that direction again and are probably not going away anytime soon.

The good news is, that Ten Hag has the very same philosophy, with his specific additional touch, and will get United to an excellent standard as well.
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Nope, not having the 100 point thing i'm afraid.
 
Zagoon said:
I will concede on the fatigue front, since Arsenal played less games in the end. I do not want to get into a deeper discussion on this one.

As for being lucky with injuries, this is incorrect. Arsenal were not lucky at all because it was injuries to key players that contributed to Arsenal's title loss in the end. Players like Partey, Jesus, Zinchenko, Saliba, Tomiyasu, Nketiah, Nelson and Elneny were absent for different periods and this presented challenges to adapt to. It was Arsenal's football quality that allowed them to maintain consistency for a lot of the season.

And on the Saliba point specifically. You will learn when you start to push up your defensive lines up next season, how important your defensive 5 are in your football system. Losing Saliba is like Liverpool losing VVD for the season in 20/21, or Liverpool losing the legs of Fabinho in 22/23. You lose players in your base and you struggle. Its why Pep bought so many defenders when he got to City. Its why SAF said famously that defenses win you titles.

Finally to respond to your 100 point "not gonna happen" response. Im not speaking from a position of hope and prayer when I say that Arsenal can reach 100 points plus if they add properly to their squad. Arsenal are playing at a very high level now, and if they can build consistency at that level with quality depth, and fix the areas where they lack technically (there are areas they are short) they will jump up another 15 points. I will give you my verdict at the end of the transfer window.

I know its difficult to accept that Arsenal can be an excellent team again, but unfortunately they are moving in that direction again and are probably not going away anytime soon.

The good news is, that Ten Hag has the very same philosophy, with his specific additional touch, and will get United to an excellent standard as well.
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The players you mentioned Niketiah, Nelson, Elneny are not key players at all. None of them are first choice players, including Tomoyasu. The other 4 players you mentioned, 2 of them played 70% of the mins in PL. That's a good number. Other 2 played around 60% of the mins which is a problem. So instead of 1, you had 2 players who missed chunk of season, still a very healthy number compared to anyone and add the least number of games played, Arsenal had a good availability and also a kind schedule. Good availability is something a good quality too, it takes skill and bit of luck to build a fit squad.

Arsenal are not the only team who played higher line and high line is not something we saw first time in 2022-23 season. Not sure what exactly your point is, if it's "If we lose CB, we can't cope" then you are in big trouble.

Arsenal are not making 100 points, I don't need transfer window to tell that. You need a near perfect season to achieve that and Arsenal are no where near that.
 
We had difficulties replacing Saliba from the options we had left over but he wasn't the only reason we dropped a bunch of points. Some players either dropped in form or came back to earth from their high point in the season. That's unfortunately all normal course of the season stuff...and combined that with a relentless end of season City, we came undone pretty fast.

I don't know if we will get enough reinforcements to challenge this year. I am hearing some positive rumours but until that is settled, it is hard to see if we will be better....we should already be at relatively the same level as last year. That itself isn't good enough because we can expect our rivals to improve. Logic suggests that Pool will be back to a higher level so hopefully we can fend them off for second at least. Man Utd should get closer as well. I am expecting Newcastle to slot back into fifth but that could be underestimating them.
 
Time for a part 2.

For context, here are the trophies:

22/23: Arsenal 0-1 United
23/24: Arsenal 0-1 United
 
Perhaps the better question would be in which position would we rather be right now?
 
Samid said:
Time for a part 2.

For context, here are the trophies:

22/23: Arsenal 0-1 United
23/24: Arsenal 1-1 United
Click to expand...
16_9_0.png
 
Samid said:
Time for a part 2.

For context, here are the trophies:

22/23: Arsenal 0-1 United
23/24: Arsenal 0-1 United
Click to expand...
It's the same 'Top 4 Trophy' thing as the last 15 years of Wenger, really. They also won 3 FA Cups during that time but no other trophy.

Post Wenger, they've won one Trophy - an FA Cup. We've won 5 post Fergie - 2 FA Cups, 2 League Cups, Europa League.

I guess a lot depends on whether you value trophies like those above the Top 4 'trophy' (I do!)

Ours is a bigger decline because Fergie carried on winning major trophies like the PL until his retirement, which we havent since. Arsenal haven't since either, but are held to different standards because they didn't under the last 15 years of Wenger either.

I'd always prefer winning trophies rather than a trophyless Top 4 season. But I know many nowadays only see the PL and CL as relevant so would prioritise the top 4 and CL qualification rather than other trophies and so would probably prefer the Arsenal season.
 
Rista said:
Perhaps the better question would be in which position would we rather be right now?
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Clearly Arsenal. Despite coming up short 2 seasons in a row, they’re primed to challenge for the league again and are probably the primary challengers to city again next season. United are 3 seasons behind arsenal in terms of title contenders.
 
Giggsy13 said:
Clearly Arsenal. Despite coming up short 2 seasons in a row, they’re primed to challenge for the league again and are probably the primary challengers to city again next season. United are 3 seasons behind arsenal in terms of title contenders.
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But Arsenal already 2 trophies behind United in those 2 seasons. :drool:
 
Giggsy13 said:
Clearly Arsenal. Despite coming up short 2 seasons in a row, they’re primed to challenge for the league again and are probably the primary challengers to city again next season. United are 3 seasons behind arsenal in terms of title contenders.
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They've impressed me this season tbh. I was predicting they would fall off a bit. They do seem like genuine challengers for the next season as well.
 
Who does this season set up better for future seasons? Arsenal. Who’s had the better season? Us. We cheered our team on to win a major trophy against our biggest rivals. Tell me Arsenal fans wouldn’t rather have done that than applauded their side off after a valiant defeat last weekend.
 
Considering the prolonged negotiations with our takeover, the Greenwood and Sancho issues, and contending with the staggering injury list, we’ve done very well to win the FA-cup and secure a spot in the Europa League. So, I would say United's season stands out as more successful when comparing with Arsenal's another disappointing 2 place finish.
 
Yeah okay, we won the FA Cup, but you’d have to be deluded to think we’ve had a better season than Arsenal. Despite the trophy. We came 8th in the most important competition. We won’t have CL football next year. We look miles behind them. Whereas they took the title to the final game of the season, and look legitimate title contenders for next season. I’d much rather have had their season than ours. They were relevant all season, we haven’t been. An FA cup triumph can’t paper over those cracks. They are primed to challenge again next season, we don’t even know who our manager will be.
 
Like i saw someone say earlier - "No one remembers second place, but our name is forever on that FA Cup"

They will get Champions League next season but if they dont win it...who cares?
 
Let’s put it this way. Arsenal fans had the whole full season to cheer, week in and week out, with a colossal disappointment at the end where they came up short in the league. Utd fans had a miserable season throughout, but had a great high at the end with the FA cup win (plus beating Liverpool in dramatic fashion along the way). One set of fans may prefer one over the other, but it’s not clear cut imo.
 
Arsenal had a better season.

We had a more successful season.

Arsenal are in a better place than us for next season.
 
Trophy against no trophy.

Arsenal, together with Liverpool and ManCity had tons of lucky decisions for them if we compare to us. Also, despite all our injuries we got a trophy.
 
If you don't win trophies you don't get days like today. Top 4 (compared to a trophy) is bobbins really unless you've got a good chance to win the thing. Arsenal look like they've got a decent chance next season but then they always come up short in Europe.
 
Rista said:
They've impressed me this season tbh. I was predicting they would fall off a bit. They do seem like genuine challengers for the next season as well.
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If they manage to get a striker like Osimhen next season, they would be favourites imo. Their midfield and back 4 is sorted, spine of the team is strong, they’re just lacking a quality no. 9.
 
People are conflating ‘who would you rather be’ with who had the best season. We had a better season as we won a trophy, but Arsenal obviously are in a better position for next season. Both can be true.
 
Arsenal beat City to the community shield so they won a trophy too and finished higher with CL spot.
 
Saying United had a better season is as absurd as saying Ten Hag had a a better season than Arteta.
Arsenal is easily a top-10 club in Europe this season, United is a top-10 club only in the PL this season.
 
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Both technically. Arsenal had a better season in the league, while we had a better league season trophy wise.

It’s kinda like the 2011-12, where we finished trophyless and second on goal difference, while Liverpool finished like eighth but won the FA Cup. I’d much rather win a trophy, but as if I’ve said Arsenal are in a better position to challenge for bigger trophies. Nothing beats winning a trophy though.
 
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