Who had the better season? Arsenal or Man utd?

cafecillos said:
Also we tend to forget they had played 2 more games than City for most of the season, making their leads larger than they "really" were. Without those and with City following much closer, they would have very likely crumbled even sooner. I'm not saying it's outrageous to call Arsenal's league season a title challenge, but for me personally it was a very tepid one, if at all.
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Yes it was a dead rubber the moment things levelled out. Doesn't really have the feel of a title race when scrutinised. Even worse was how City mauled them in the supposed decisive head-to-head, which, I think, put everything into perspective (twice, but especially 2nd go round).

Arsenal were outstanding for half a season and that carried them for a long time, but the machine loomed far harder than it appeared to for the reasons you highlight.
 
Revan said:
I do not think history books give a crap about the League Cup. It is a competition no one cares about. Heck, teams do not care too much about the much bigger FA Cup (we saw Van Gaal getting sacked within 24 hours of winning it).

I do not see how anyone can seriously say that this was a better season than 2011-2012 when we lost the title in goal difference.
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Counting all trophies, our total count is now 67.

Liverpool’s is 66.

I’m counting it.
 
If West Ham win tonight, I think they'll have had an equally good season as Arsenal.

1. Man Utd
=2. West Ham, Arsenal
 
Even with the FA Cup loss, I'd take our season. I don't think Utd fans showed nearly the same level of delusion Arsenal fans displayed displayed for a huge part of the season.
Exchanging with several Arsenal fans, they all seem a bit depressed anyway whereas I'm normal/content.
 
kouroux said:
Even with the FA Cup loss, I'd take our season. I don't think Utd fans showed nearly the same level of delusion Arsenal fans displayed displayed for a huge part of the season.
Exchanging with several Arsenal fans, they all seem a bit depressed anyway whereas I'm normal/content.
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I think from an Arsenal-centric point of view, they can be ecstatic, and think we'd be too coming from nowhere and not being expected to do a single thing to all of a sudden being held aloft as serious title-challengers by the media and rival fans alike.

They have every right to beam like Cheshire cats in one regard, but in another, when truly scrutinised and analysed, it does look delusional, or at least not backed up by anything until they can repeat their campaign under a much more normal setting where other big teams are firing on all cylinders again and they are proving themselves across multiple fronts.

This season was their Leicester, only there was a big, bad cheating monster to spoil the party.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Is that really true? Mad if so.
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It is true but it's a very generous time frame for Arsenal and ignores some other (I think) important details.
  • United's average position has been higher (4.4 versus 4.8) over those 10 years.
  • United have finished higher than Arsenal twice in the last four seasons.
  • Where United have finished above Arsenal, the average gap has been five league positions (six in 2020/21, five in 2019/20, four in 2017/18). Where Arsenal have finished above United, the average gap has been 1.57 league positions, and they haven't finished more than one league place above us since 2015/16 (2nd versus 5th). Even in 2016/17 when Arsenal finished above United by one place (5th vs 6th), United were playing CL football the next season and Arsenal weren't.
  • United have achieved more top four finishes in the past 10 years than Arsenal (five versus four), matched them for second placed finishes (two each), and bettered them for third placed finishes (two versus one).
  • United have only finished outside of the top six once, and that was 10 years ago when we finished 7th. Arsenal have had two 8th placed finishes in the past four years.
 
Alex99 said:
Look, I know my feelings on it aren't really logical, but when Liverpool ran them close and fell short, it felt like they actually had a chance, but with Arsenal it never did.
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Yeah, I wonder whether a team has ever thrown away 2-0 leads in consecutive weeks and gone on to win the league. Probably not. The title race was effectively over once Saka missed that penalty against West Ham.

If you really want to call it a title race then it wasn't a very exciting one. City had games in hand, an easier run in plus the head to heads still to come for most of the season and anytime Arsenal were put under any sort of pressure they completely folded. They were even being given 10 minutes of stoppage time in games in what seemed like an attempt to prolong the title race and still didn't really get close.

You could tell that the wheels were ready to come off at any moment and constantly needing last minute winners was never going to be sustainable. If they sign Rice, a new GK, a Saliba replacement, an upgrade on Gabriel and a proven goalscorer then they might challenge again, otherwise it still feels like they're a long way off competing every year on multiple fronts.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
Yeah, I wonder whether a team has ever thrown away 2-0 leads in consecutive weeks and gone on to win the league. Probably not. The title race was effectively over once Saka missed that penalty against West Ham.

If you really want to call it a title race then it wasn't a very exciting one. City had games in hand, an easier run in plus the head to heads still to come for most of the season and anytime Arsenal were put under any sort of pressure they completely folded. They were even being given 10 minutes of stoppage time in games in what seemed like an attempt to prolong the title race and still didn't really get close.

You could tell that the wheels were ready to come off at any moment and constantly needing last minute winners was never going to be sustainable. If they sign Rice, a new GK, a Saliba replacement, an upgrade on Gabriel and a proven goalscorer then they might challenge again, otherwise it still feels like they're a long way off competing every year on multiple fronts.
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I agree. Any title run-in that begins with consecutive capitulations after being two goals up and a late fight back to rescue a point (at home) against the undisputed worst team in the league sort of renders any talk of a title race redundant. Particularly as in this instance, those results meant that City didn't even need to beat Arsenal to be title front-runners.
 
Both teams had a good season, and both should be cautiously optimistic about next season.

Arsenal are further along in their development under Arteta so understandably achieved a higher playing ceiling than United under ETH this past season. I expect that gap to close next year.

I feel for Arsenal because they would be champions if not for the historic levels of cheating that have been normalized and will make it harder than it should to win a major trophy.
 
Fortitude said:
I think from an Arsenal-centric point of view, they can be ecstatic, and think we'd be too coming from nowhere and not being expected to do a single thing to all of a sudden being held aloft as serious title-challengers by the media and rival fans alike.

They have every right to beam like Cheshire cats in one regard, but in another, when truly scrutinised and analysed, it does look delusional, or at least not backed up by anything until they can repeat their campaign under a much more normal setting where other big teams are firing on all cylinders again and they are proving themselves across multiple fronts.

This season was their Leicester, only there was a big, bad cheating monster to spoil the party.
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The few Arsenal I have exchanged with, they really don't display what you described well. It's a bit weird where this sense of entitlement came for
 
Easily us. Manager in his first year with a mentally shot squad loses first 2-3 games handily to average teams then goes on to win a trophy, give an account of themselves in an FA Cup final, lose to the eventual winners of the Wafer Cup and qualify for CL only a few points behind Arsenal.

The other manager has a settled squad, leading league by a mile goes on to lose it comfortably and got knocked out of every cup pretty early. Laughable comparison for me.

You can argue about who's the better team sure but who had a better season it's not even close.
 
Fortitude said:
But that’s not the real question next term. Arsenal will have a full campaign this upcoming season where you are expected to be challenging on all fronts available to you. The CL, the league and the domestic trophies. Then, and only then will you know how much you have progressed and where you stand in an actual gruelling campaign rather than a streamlined one.

We played a lot more games than you due to the above; we also paid dearly for it as our weak squad fatigued; if we only had the league to focus on, like you did, that wouldn’t have happened and expectations would have more of a right to be different, and elevated.

Chelsea and Liverpool (if they bin EL) will be in your predicament of this season, next season, and they should be mounting very serious title challenges because of it. Meanwhile, you’re heavily tipped to fade badly, so the question you’ve posed mightn’t even be applicable to you next season.
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I thinks its a bit unfair to say we only had the league to concentrate on all season, without adding some context.

We didn't bin the Europa League. We managed to do enough to top our group, and you didn't, meaning you had to play an extra play off round. We then put out good teams vs Lisbon but ultimately fell short & got put out with the lottery of penalties, while you made the round after before being knocked out.

The Carabo Cup was a big difference. We got knocked out in 3rd round, you won it resulting in 5 extra fixtures. However, i can't see us changing our approach in that, we'll continue to rotate in that, and just see where it takes us. Sometimes it's the semi in 21/22, or the final like 2018, other times we'll get knocked out early like last season.

The FA Cup we do really compete in, but we were unlucky in that we got drawn away to City in the 4th round. Like any competition, luck of the draw goes a big part in how many games you play. If we got to the final that would be 3 extra games before the season ends with a final the week after.

So yeah, we need to improve, and compete better, you also hope for a bit of luck in European draws and in FA Cup draws to make it easier to do that. But the Carabo Cup will likely just be more of the same, play the games with a rotated team and see how far you get.
 
Jericho said:
I'd take our season over Arsenals, but if you think it's worth mentioning that we were finalists in the FA then you can't just say Arsenal "have a champions league spot" the same as ourselves, you have to acknowledge their superior league position and points total.
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I think getting to the final in any cup competition is worth mentioning and it’s a massive achievement. Arsenal finished 5 points behind city so not exactly running them close, but I do acknowledge the fact they finished 9 points superior to us.
 
Personally, I'd prefer our season outcome to Arsenal. And if you offered the two options for next season, I'd choose ours again.

If you don't win the league, then finishing top 4 is the important thing. Finishing 2nd instead of 3rd, 3rd instead of 4th is nice, but not overly important. So Arsenal finishing 2nd, us 3rd, isn't a particularly significant difference. Albeit, yeah, they had a better overall league campaign than us because they finished 1 place, and 9 points, higher.

But because the difference between 2nd and 3rd doesn't actually matter much, then I'd always take 3rd and a trophy above 2nd and finishing trophyless. It was also good to have a run to the final in the FA Cup, and keep our hunt for a second trophy alive to the very last domestic game of the season. Albeit that ended in the same disappointment as Arsenal's title challenge, so it's just the League Cup success that makes me prefer our overall season.
 
I know history wont remember the League Cup, but for sure wont remember Arsenal 2nd place either.

There's no legacy in this season for neither its towards building for the future and from that point of view Arsenal clearly had a better season.
 
Depends how black and white you want to be.

A trophy is a trophy, so I dare say our fans had the more enjoyable moment and trophies is a large part of what you're appraised by at the big clubs.

But I think if we're fair and balanced about it and allow a little nuance to be introduced into things, while second isn't a trophy they had a tremendously strong league season, well over and above expectation. I think that does matter personally because it shows the strength of your overall play over a long season. It doesn't guarantee anything but it matters because it's kind of where you're building from in terms of squad strength.

I'd take the trophy if offered the choice of the two, particularly given we attained CL football as well.
 
Think I def rather have our season with a trophy, but if City win the CL we will feel more pain about Arsenal bottling it than actual Arsenal fans.
 
Here's one that will get the biters.

West Ham had a better season than arsenal, nevermind us.

No fan on this planet in their right mind would give up the feeling on the day of winning something be it at Wembley or wherever or the joy felt at this parade by west ham.

Those fans at Wembley and the kids will have felt something no arsenal fan has felt this year and ultimately that is what it is ALL about
 
GoonerBear said:
I thinks its a bit unfair to say we only had the league to concentrate on all season, without adding some context.

We didn't bin the Europa League. We managed to do enough to top our group, and you didn't, meaning you had to play an extra play off round. We then put out good teams vs Lisbon but ultimately fell short & got put out with the lottery of penalties, while you made the round after before being knocked out.

The Carabo Cup was a big difference. We got knocked out in 3rd round, you won it resulting in 5 extra fixtures. However, i can't see us changing our approach in that, we'll continue to rotate in that, and just see where it takes us. Sometimes it's the semi in 21/22, or the final like 2018, other times we'll get knocked out early like last season.

The FA Cup we do really compete in, but we were unlucky in that we got drawn away to City in the 4th round. Like any competition, luck of the draw goes a big part in how many games you play. If we got to the final that would be 3 extra games before the season ends with a final the week after.

So yeah, we need to improve, and compete better, you also hope for a bit of luck in European draws and in FA Cup draws to make it easier to do that. But the Carabo Cup will likely just be more of the same, play the games with a rotated team and see how far you get.
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I did read this at the time and meant to reply, but got called away and subsequently forgot to. Good post.

We'll see how things pan out, but in the season just gone, it massively caveats your campaign.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
I think Arsenal fans will, in the future, only look back on last season with any real fondness if the squad learns from it and uses it as a springboard for success.
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I think this also applies to United fans. I can't imagine any long time United fans looking back fondly on a season just because they won the league cup. Both clubs need to really progress for this season to be fondly remembered.

Personally, I don't look back fondly on the four seasons Arsenal won the FA Cup in the last 10 years because how far away from League and European success the team was. Both seasons were forgettable history wise but for me I'll remember this season more than any of the fA Cup seasons.

Revan said:
I do not think history books give a crap about the League Cup. It is a competition no one cares about. Heck, teams do not care too much about the much bigger FA Cup (we saw Van Gaal getting sacked within 24 hours of winning it).

I do not see how anyone can seriously say that this was a better season than 2011-2012 when we lost the title in goal difference.
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Yeah this is how I feel. I can't imagine fans of any of the top 6 clubs really caring much long term about the league cup.
 
  • Arsenal got 9 points more than United in the PL, with both getting the same reward.
  • United got 9 points more than Arsenal in the UEL, with United advancing one more round.
  • United got 10 points more than Arsenal in the FA Cup, with United reaching to the final (advancing four more rounds).
  • United got 18 points more than Arsenal in the League Cup, with United winning the tournament (advancing five more rounds).
No brainer for me.
 
Arsenal is the academician who wrote a paper that quotes a concept from a paper that never got implemented, that quotes another paper that never got implemented. Looks pretty but useless in the actual world.
 
Fortitude said:
I did read this at the time and meant to reply, but got called away and subsequently forgot to. Good post.

We'll see how things pan out, but in the season just gone, it massively caveats your campaign.
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Oh yeah, fully agree. Listen, even though I tried to put a bit of context on them, the cup exists were disappointing, I don't like getting put out any competition so I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

Carbabo is a lottery to us just now really, but the Europa League was the sore 1 for me. Given how we went into the home leg just needing any sort of win, our team should have had enough to go through that game, especially since Sporting ended up with 10 men. Then to lose 2 defenders first half to season ending injuries, that game cost us a lot this season when you look back on it.
 
GoonerBear said:
Oh yeah, fully agree. Listen, even though I tried to put a bit of context on them, the cup exists were disappointing, I don't like getting put out any competition so I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

Carbabo is a lottery to us just now really, but the Europa League was the sore 1 for me. Given how we went into the home leg just needing any sort of win, our team should have had enough to go through that game, especially since Sporting ended up with 10 men. Then to lose 2 defenders first half to season ending injuries, that game cost us a lot this season when you look back on it.
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Fair play for discussing it as it does seem to have been swept to the side somewhat in discussion about your league campaign.

You're in the CL now, too, which will only add pressure to the squad. An interesting thing to note is injuries and fatigue revolving around the period of time those games are on (pre and post) and how determinant and detrimental (or not), they are to your campaign.

Going deep in the other Cups is one thing, but the CL is another beast entirely, and the EL, a monstrous, extended run in itself.
 
Neither have been remarkable so does it really matter?
it`s like arguing over who came second in a race...no one really cares.
 
There's a lot of pretty unfair takes on Arsenal in this thread. They improved by a good margin this season and yes, they fell short in the end and I always fancied City to win it, but to say they were never really in a title race is biased and just wrong. I think they'll be at least as good again next season.

That said, for me United had the better season. A trophy is a trophy.

Both sets of fans have a lot of reasons to be optimistic for next season.
 
Bilbo said:
There's a lot of pretty unfair takes on Arsenal in this thread. They improved by a good margin this season and yes, they fell short in the end and I always fancied City to win it, but to say they were never really in a title race is biased and just wrong. I think they'll be at least as good again next season.

That said, for me United had the better season. A trophy is a trophy.

Both sets of fans have a lot of reasons to be optimistic for next season.
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We have signed up Saka, Martinelli and Saliba despite everyone thinking we would lose at least one. Extending contracts and signings should also be included in the season. Going very hard for Rice and potentially Caicedo. Football is sustained and seasons link from one to the next, its not like the reset button gets hit and all form is lost. A Chelsea fan said to me the other day that Arsenal need to be careful because Chelsea will be better next season & 'Nkunku'.

We are the only team being warned next season about improvement from other teams. Presumably these people think this Arsenal team has peaked and we also cant get better. Our wide players are Saka and Martinelli both of which are 21. If your telling me we cant get better and need to watch out for the certain improvement of United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle, Tottenham, you had better cite two dual wingers aged 21 and under who are better combination than Saka and Martinelli. Oh wait you cant, so why will you get better but Arsenal wont? Do you have a better centre half under 22 than William Saliba? Oh you dont, oh ok then. Do you have a better midfielder under the age of 25 than Odegaard? Oh you dont, oh no, whats going on?

For the record, I think Arsenal, Liverpool and United will all be better than last season. But we will be better from a position of 84 points. There is more than an outside chance we improve upon 84 points. The top 4 will be in alphabetical order, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City, Man United.
 
MonsieurGooner said:
We have signed up Saka, Martinelli and Saliba despite everyone thinking we would lose at least one. Extending contracts and signings should also be included in the season. Going very hard for Rice and potentially Caicedo. Football is sustained and seasons link from one to the next, its not like the reset button gets hit and all form is lost. A Chelsea fan said to me the other day that Arsenal need to be careful because Chelsea will be better next season & 'Nkunku'.

We are the only team being warned next season about improvement from other teams. Presumably these people think this Arsenal team has peaked and we also cant get better. Our wide players are Saka and Martinelli both of which are 21. If your telling me we cant get better and need to watch out for the certain improvement of United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle, Tottenham, you had better cite two dual wingers aged 21 and under who are better combination than Saka and Martinelli. Oh wait you cant, so why will you get better but Arsenal wont? Do you have a better centre half under 22 than William Saliba? Oh you dont, oh ok then. Do you have a better midfielder under the age of 25 than Odegaard? Oh you dont, oh no, whats going on?

For the record, I think Arsenal, Liverpool and United will all be better than last season. But we will be better from a position of 84 points. There is more than an outside chance we improve upon 84 points. The top 4 will be in alphabetical order, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City, Man United.
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Jeez, so much hot air, balderdash. Very similar to how Glaston spoke a few years back. seen how that turned.
We can see you got good players. Winning is needed, if not the project will quite easily fizzle away into nothing. Good luck, but right now it is all talk, from the position of 84 points, meh.
 
What's the point of this comparison, both need to catch up Man City who are light years ahead. Winning League Cup or finishing top 4 is fine but that's the minimum we expect from both these clubs.
 
Seasons are based on how memorable they are and what you have won. Would you look back in years and say, what a season that was we came second? No of course you wouldn’t.

1) Man City had the best season clearly.
2) West Ham had a season they will remember for the rest of their lives.
3) Man Utd, trophy and top 4
4) Arsenal, came second. If anything their season will be remembered as the year they bottled the title.
 
Berbasbullet said:
Arsenal fans have a proper chip on their shoulder. :lol:
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Before world cup their record was 12-1-1, making them #1 team in PL with 37 points, 5 points ahead of City.
After world cup their record was 15-5-5, making them #3 team in PL with 47 points, 10 behind City and 2 behind ManUtd.

If you break it down into first half and second half of the season,

First half - 16-2-1, #1 team in PL with 50 points, 8 points ahead of City.
Second half - 10-4-5, 34 points, #5 team in PL behind City, Liverpool, ManUtd, Villa.

Lot of Arsenal fans think first half is the normal level and they underperformed in second half, other fans think they might have over-performed and will be back to their "true level", which is second half/post world cup form.

I think they will qualify for CL easily, if I'm not wrong top 5 will qualify for CL. Second half Liverpool were the second best team, can see them battling with City and the others fighting for the remaining spots.
 
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