Who had the better season? Arsenal or Man utd?

Chekov said:
Arsenal easily. Manchester United have spent stuff for aiming to be at least challenging for the PL and CL but they did neither.
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Ok maybe Arsenal going second spot and crashing out of Europe isn't that good actually so i was probably wrong there.

Manchester United have spent so much during the last seasons and still haven't gotten close to any goal is, i guess, a dissapointment. I would be dissapointed with the season more if i cheered on Manchester United then what i would have been if i were cheering for Arsenal this season. If we put it that way.

Arsenal are basically a mid-table club going for glorys while Manchester United have tried for many years to build a winning club but where it matters have failed.
 
United have. We won a trophy and qualified for the champions league next season. Arsenal just qualified for the champions league. We need to remember that this is ten hags first season, Arteta is in his 3rd season. No question we’ve had a better season
 
Manchester United-season could be seen as a failure i guess. I don't know the Arsenal-supporters see their season as a failure.
 
Not sure if you're talking about the season just passed, but if so, Arsenal. Anything else?
 
Actually not sure. Arsenal were at least involved in a title race albeit one with a catastrophic collapse, whereas we won a trophy which adds something to the record books. We probably gave City the better games of it over the course of the season though. Narrow victory at OT, narrow defeat in the cup final (and the 6-3 defeat obviously). Arsenal's three defeats were all a bit tame if i remember correctly.

Feels a bit of an awkward comparison as neither team wants to rival the other for top 4- both want to properly challenge City. The antagonism from some of our fans actually seems to surpass that for City weirdly enough.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Well, no, probably not. Utd had a good season, and even if the cup final was a bit disappointing, there's no way this season is a failure. It's massive progress, very clearly.
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Can't see how this season was a progress for Manchester United if they aimed to be somehow challenging at the top and claim to be a top club.
 
Chekov said:
Can't see how this season was a progress for Manchester United if they aimed to be somehow challenging at the top and claim to be a top club.
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United went up 3 places on the table with 17 more points and a trophy up from last season. How is that not progress? You expected United to go from 58 points to a like 85 points in one season? Because that's what a challenge that ultimately falls flat looks like. City are simply too far ahead.

2nd place means feck all. Liverpool finished last season on 92 and this season didn't make the CL. Don't be surprised if Arsenal won't make top 4 next season.
 
moodyred said:
We played 62 games and won 42. (68% win ratio)
Arsenal played 49 games and won 32. (65% win ratio)

We played alot more games. Had better win ratios. Qualified for CL and won a cup. If Arsenal played as many games, injury and fatigue would have hit them hard. I'll argue we have a much better season.
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Yeah I absolutely loved how Ten Hag tried to attack every competition even if it left us limping towards the back end of the season. It’s the right mentality.
 
For those who say United, do you think there are any scenarios where a no trophy season could be better than top 4 with a trophy?

- For example, let's say team A got 98 points but finish 2nd like Liverpool did a few years ago, played amazing football all season but finished without a trophy.
- Team B played dreadful football all season and limped to a 4th placed finish in the worst top 4 race of all time with 65 points, but also won the League Cup.

Who would have had the better season in this scenario?



Personally I don't think Arsenal are far enough ahead of us for us to be envious of what they did, certainly not worth giving up a trophy for an extra 9 points, so I think you have to take United's season.

I think Arsenal fans are looking at it from the view "would I swap places with United right now in terms of how close they are to winning a league or champions league next season, compared to Arsenal?" They seem to hold the view they're significantly more likely to win a league or CL next season on the basis their progression as a team has them closer to City. Certainly not an argument without merit.
 
JagUTD said:
I wouldn't be in the slightest bit surprised is Arsenal finish outside the top 4 next season and Arteta doesn't finish the season.

Expectations for them are now massive so if they don't start well, things will sour very quickly.
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I wouldn't either to be fair, but that is more based on history. Right now I don't think there can be any doubt about who of the two is the better team and that also reflects on the table.
 
Snow said:
United went up 3 places on the table with 17 more points and a trophy up from last season. How is that not progress? You expected United to go from 58 points to a like 85 points in one season? Because that's what a challenge that ultimately falls flat looks like. City are simply too far ahead.

2nd place means feck all. Liverpool finished last season on 92 and this season didn't make the CL. Don't be surprised if Arsenal won't make top 4 next season.
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I expected Manchester United to be a winning and succesfull club but clearly they aren't anymore. I am probably stuck in the past.
 
Dominos said:
For those who say United, do you think there are any scenarios where a no trophy season could be better than top 4 with a trophy?

- For example, let's say team A got 98 points but finish 2nd like Liverpool did a few years ago, played amazing football all season but finished without a trophy.
- Team B played dreadful football all season and limped to a 4th placed finish in the worst top 4 race of all time with 65 points, but also won the League Cup.

Who would have had the better season in this scenario?



Personally I don't think Arsenal are far enough ahead of us for us to be envious of what they did, certainly not worth giving up a trophy for an extra 9 points, so I think you have to take United's season.

I think Arsenal fans are looking at it from the view "would I swap places with United right now in terms of how close they are to winning a league or champions league next season, compared to Arsenal?" They seem to hold the view they're significantly more likely to win a league or CL next season on the basis their progression as a team has them closer to City. Certainly not an argument without merit.
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There's absolutely no scenario when finishing 2nd and no silverware trumps finishing third and silverware. No one cares if you are 2nd or third. Winning titles and cups is all that matter. Playing great football is the cherry on top.

For the record Arsenal didn't play amazing football and were pretty dire in the final sprint.
 
Dominos said:
For those who say United, do you think there are any scenarios where a no trophy season could be better than top 4 with a trophy?

- For example, let's say team A got 98 points but finish 2nd like Liverpool did a few years ago, played amazing football all season but finished without a trophy.
- Team B played dreadful football all season and limped to a 4th placed finish in the worst top 4 race of all time with 65 points, but also won the League Cup.

Who would have had the better season in this scenario?



Personally I don't think Arsenal are far enough ahead of us for us to be envious of what they did, certainly not worth giving up a trophy for an extra 9 points, so I think you have to take United's season.

I think Arsenal fans are looking at it from the view "would I swap places with United right now in terms of how close they are to winning a league or champions league next season, compared to Arsenal?" They seem to hold the view they're significantly more likely to win a league or CL next season on the basis their progression as a team has them closer to City. Certainly not an argument without merit.
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This is exactly my position. All other things being equal, winning a trophy is preferable to not winning a trophy. Obviously. But all other things aren’t equal in this case.

Both teams entered the same four competitions. Both teams view the League Cup as by far the least important competition and the Premier League as by far the most important. That’s also the view held by players, managers, agents, pundits, executives and owners.It’s also the view held by fans of pretty much every club - United included. You can’t retrospectively bestow prestige on a trophy you’ve never really cared about. Actually, I suppose you can - but you can’t expect people not to notice.

It’s also funny to see the goalposts shift even within the same sentence. Apparently Arsenal being in a title race is meaningless because we didn’t win it. Fair enough. But surely that would mean going out in the 2nd Europa knockout round (only one round further than Arsenal) and losing in the FA Cup as soon as you faced City (just like Arsenal) are equally meaningless? You can’t argue that winning is all that matters and simultaneously point to runs in the FA Cup and Europa League where you ultimately lost as achievements. There’s either some nuance here, or there isn’t.
 
Enigma_87 said:
There's absolutely no scenario when finishing 2nd and no silverware trumps finishing third and silverware. No one cares if you are 2nd or third. Winning titles and cups is all that matter. Playing great football is the cherry on top.

For the record Arsenal didn't play amazing football and were pretty dire in the final sprint.
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People obviously care if you finish 2nd on 98 points vs finish 4th on 65 points though, let's not be silly. Elite teams want to win the premier league or champions league, and how close you come to achieving that are often an indicator of how well you'll do in future seasons (but not always).

Arsenal have won the FA cup 4 times over the last 10 years and they're still a laughing stock because they haven't won the big ones for nearly 20 years. People don't care about the domestic cups nearly as much as they pretend to, hence why LVG and Mourinho's time here is considered a dismal failure. It's also why Laudrup, Ramos, Martinez, Redknapp, Dalglish, Rodgers are given no respect despite winning domestic cups over last 10-15 years.
 
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Enigma_87 said:
There's absolutely no scenario when finishing 2nd and no silverware trumps finishing third and silverware. No one cares if you are 2nd or third. Winning titles and cups is all that matter. Playing great football is the cherry on top.

For the record Arsenal didn't play amazing football and were pretty dire in the final sprint.
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It depends where you draw the line on a title challenge and where 2nd vs whatever position matters when discussing trophies.

Imagine Arsenal lost it on the final day llke we did in 2011/12. Won nothing like we did.

Liverpool won the league cup that year. Did they have a better season than us because they won a trophy? They finished 8th that year but who cares because they won the league cup right?

For me, the cups and Europe are always bonuses, it's lovely when we win the bonuses but the meat and bones of the season is the league. Where we finish in the league and the manner in which we do it matters.

When City won the FA Cup in 2011, we won the league. Had we not won the league but barely finished second would we have had a worse year than City who finished third but were nowhere near in the title race?
 
Arsenal has the better season apparently. If we won FA cup, ours is, but we lost.
 
Daydreamer said:
This is exactly my position. All other things being equal, winning a trophy is preferable to not winning a trophy. Obviously. But all other things aren’t equal in this case.

Both teams entered the same four competitions. Both teams view the League Cup as by far the least important competition and the Premier League as by far the most important. That’s also the view held by players, managers, agents, pundits, executives and owners.It’s also the view held by fans of pretty much every club - United included. You can’t retrospectively bestow prestige on a trophy you’ve never really cared about. Actually, I suppose you can - but you can’t expect people not to notice.

It’s also funny to see the goalposts shift even within the same sentence. Apparently Arsenal being in a title race is meaningless because we didn’t win it. Fair enough. But surely that would mean going out in the 2nd Europa knockout round (only one round further than Arsenal) and losing in the FA Cup as soon as you faced City (just like Arsenal) are equally meaningless? You can’t argue that winning is all that matters and simultaneously point to runs in the FA Cup and Europa League where you ultimately lost as achievements. There’s either some nuance here, or there isn’t.
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It's hard to argue that an extra 9 points in the league is worth more than winning a cup, even if it's not the best of the cup competitions.

The difference in league performance and position would probably have to be wider to make a good case that trophy-less season is better.
 
Dominos said:
People obviously care if you finish 2nd on 98 points vs finish 4th on 65 points though, let's not be silly. Elite teams want to win the premier league or champions league, and how close you come to achieving that are often an indicator of how well you'll do in future seasons (but not always).
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I really don't. Finishing 2nd or third makes no difference whatsoever. Both the 2nd or 3rd are in the CL groups and both teams didn't win the title. Liverpool finished the 21/22 season 1 point off City then this year they finished 22 points in 5th place.
We finished 2nd then finished 6th the next year. Spurs finished 2nd then 3rd, Arsenal finished 2nd in the year Leicester won it - then 5th. It really doesn't make any difference historically and the only time that I can remember in recent past that a team built on that 2nd place was Pool when they finished 2nd to City the first time.
Dominos said:
Arsenal have won the FA cup 4 times over the last 10 years and they're still a laughing stock because they haven't won the big ones for nearly 20 years. People don't care about the domestic cups nearly as much as they pretend to, hence why LVG and Mourinho's time here is considered a dismal failure. It's also why Laudrup, Ramos, Martinez, Redknapp, Dalglish, Rodgers are given no respect despite winning domestic cups over last 10-15 years.
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And yet we got 2 second places in the last 6 seasons coupled with 2 3rd places, so we are doing pretty well I guess?
 
Dominos said:
For those who say United, do you think there are any scenarios where a no trophy season could be better than top 4 with a trophy?

- For example, let's say team A got 98 points but finish 2nd like Liverpool did a few years ago, played amazing football all season but finished without a trophy.
- Team B played dreadful football all season and limped to a 4th placed finish in the worst top 4 race of all time with 65 points, but also won the League Cup.

Who would have had the better season in this scenario?
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Thinking about it more from a fan's perspective, in the scenario I gave, the case for picking the 98 point trophy-less season is what % of games you actually enjoyed watching throughout the season and how much cumulative joy that gave you vs having to sit through shit most weeks.

The experience of being a fan is experienced 50+ times throughout a season as you play 50+ separate games. It's theoretically possible you can enjoy watching 90% of your games throughout the season if you're playing good football and getting good results, and still end up trophy-less. On the other handle, you could barely enjoy watching half your games of your team if you're serving up dog shit performance, having more bad results and only scraping ugly wins, but end up with a domestic cup where you get one day of joy.

The full enjoyment of being a fan isn't experienced in one cup final game, and it isn't experienced by looking back at the end of the season and assessing your achievements on paper. It's experienced on a game by game, result by result, performance by performance basis. A fan of a trophy-less team can probably experience more positive emotion throughout the season than a team who won a trophy.
 
matherto said:
It depends where you draw the line on a title challenge and where 2nd vs whatever position matters when discussing trophies.

Imagine Arsenal lost it on the final day llke we did in 2011/12. Won nothing like we did.

Liverpool won the league cup that year. Did they have a better season than us because they won a trophy? They finished 8th that year but who cares because they won the league cup right?

For me, the cups and Europe are always bonuses, it's lovely when we win the bonuses but the meat and bones of the season is the league. Where we finish in the league and the manner in which we do it matters.

When City won the FA Cup in 2011, we won the league. Had we not won the league but barely finished second would we have had a worse year than City who finished third but were nowhere near in the title race?
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You are moving the goalpost. If Liverpool finished 3rd that year they would have had a better season - yes.

What's the difference between 2nd and 3rd place historically? Name on the trophy always stands.
 
On paper we do. But let’s be honest Arsenal is the only team who could challenge City for the title, that alone they simply has better season.
 
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Chekov said:
Ok maybe Arsenal going second spot and crashing out of Europe isn't that good actually so i was probably wrong there.

Manchester United have spent so much during the last seasons and still haven't gotten close to any goal is, i guess, a dissapointment. I would be dissapointed with the season more if i cheered on Manchester United then what i would have been if i were cheering for Arsenal this season. If we put it that way.

Arsenal are basically a mid-table club going for glorys while Manchester United have tried for many years to build a winning club but where it matters have failed.
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Arsenal finshed 11 points above us in the PL last season and we both played EL. How did we did we dissapoint this season, winning a trophy and getting 3rd? Since we got rid of Ronaldo we've been the 2nd best team in the league ahead of Arsenal. They did play more attractive football for most of the season though. We haven't been challenging for PL or CL trophies the last 10 years. We might be in the future, but that was definitely not in the expectations for this season.
 
Enigma_87 said:
You are moving the goalpost. If Liverpool finished 3rd that year they would have had a better season - yes.

What's the difference between 2nd and 3rd place historically? Name on the trophy always stands.
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I'm just asking where we draw the line on league position if it seems like it doesn't matter.
 
Arsenal easily. Both in terms of long-term points, long term squad building, team development, and money spent....

Yeah, they bottled it at the end, but its a relatively young team that will only progress.
 
Chekov said:
Can't see how this season was a progress for Manchester United if they aimed to be somehow challenging at the top and claim to be a top club.
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You should probably open your eyes if you can't see why it is. You consider the position we were in 12 months ago, the work that has been done, the fact we challenged on several fronts with a paper thin squad (ultimately failed in some of those challenges), and in general the overall picture, and quite obviously it's progress. No one says we're there yet and a lot is gonna depend on the transfers in and out and the ownership question, but in isolation, considering realistic expectations at the beginning of the season, this was a good year of progress for Utd.
 
Chekov said:
Arsenal easily. Manchester United have spent stuff for aiming to be at least challenging for the PL and CL but they did neither.
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Bit hard to challenge for the CL when you’re not even in it :rolleyes:
 
matherto said:
I'm just asking where we draw the line on league position if it seems like it doesn't matter.
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for me the upside of finishing 2nd instead of 3rd is non existent. Both teams get the same return. I don't believe that it carries over to the next season or whatever - it's to each own.
 
In the history books? United.

In terms of the long term future of the club and going into next season? Arguably quite even.
 
I would say United but it depends which way you look at it.

If someone told me Arsenal were a better team than United this season I wouldn't be able to argue with them and dont think its even really debatable, but that's exactly why I think United's season has been better. A cup, a final and 3rd place is a good return for a small squad with a new manager and literally the most hectic schedule of any team in Europe.

Arsenal with the season they've had and football they played under a manager thats had time to build a settled squad and style of play, really shouldn't have fizzled out and ended up with nothing to show and not even really pushing City for the title. It's the sort of thing Tottenham would be happy with.

Arteta should have trued to win a cup I think,but he seemed to throw all his eggs in the league basket and then their league form took a nose dive when it mattered anyway.
 
You can argue about Arsenal being a better side this season and possibly be correct. However, if we're just talking about who had the better season, I don't see how you can say Arsenal.

Same outcome from league position (CL qualification).
United won the League Cup, Arsenal out at the first hurdle.
United got to the FA Cup final, Arsenal out at the second hurdle.
United Europa League QF, Arsenal L16.

Silverware and CL qualification is objectively better than just CL qualification.
 
Arsenal could have won the league had they had a stronger bench to keep everyone fresh and better luck with injuries. They didn’t have any true embarrassments.

United never looked as good as City at any point. Plus we had a couple of absolute capitulations. Brentford, Liverpool and City made us look like a pub team. The Brentford game can be written off admittedly.

I’d happily finish second by a distance next year and give up the league cup. Had Southampton not inexplicably beaten City they’d have taken that off us too.

I’d say that Arteta moved Arsenal on more than EtH moved us on. They had the better season. With that said, I don’t think they will improve next year, and we will. We’ll finish above them if this sale gets sorted in time.
 
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