Who had the better season? Arsenal or Man utd?

Jund said:
How is this a debate? In sports you are either first or it doesn't matter.

Why are we engaging with Arsenal/Tottenham mentality type of arguments? If they deem a trophyless season a good one - good on them, that's their standard. For Manchester United a season without a trophy is a failure. And lord knows we've had one too many of those in the past 10 years.

So, thank you very much, I'd rather have a trophy at the end of a bad season, rather than the "but we got past the group stages of the CL" medal.

Keep your participation trophies, give me silverware.
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It's a debate because people have differing opinions. That's usually the catalyst for a debate.

And it's also a debate without a 'correct' answer. It's not as simple as trophy / non trophy, there's lots of layers of context behind it. Mostly its to do with personal preference (with some supporter biases as well), and that's fine whatever side you think.
 
GoonerBear said:
It's a debate because people have differing opinions. That's usually the catalyst for a debate.

And it's also a debate without a 'correct' answer. It's not as simple as trophy / non trophy, there's lots of layers of context behind it. Mostly its to do with personal preference (with some supporter biases as well), and that's fine whatever side you think.
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All due respect, couldn't disagree more. It is as simple as trophy/no trophy. Football is a competitive sport, the outcome of each game is determined by which team scored more goals. This is the way a team either progresses to a next stage in a knock-out competition, or by accumulating those points is ranked in the table at the end of a season. Whether a tournament like CL, FA cup, etc, or the PL, trophies are given to the best teams. And trophies are counted when you look at who is the most successful football club in a country.

Those "personal preferences" are a made up argument. Barcelona usually play a far more attractive football than Real Madrid, yet I believe there's no debate when it comes to who has had better runs in the CL, no?

At the end of the season it's all the same if you played well, but finished anywhere between 2nd and 17th. However any trophy gives you this warm fuzzy feeling that numbs the 8th place in the PL.
 
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Jund said:
All due respect, couldn't disagree more. It is as simple as trophy/no trophy. Football is a competitive sport, the outcome of each game is determined by which team scored more goals. This is the way a team either progresses to a next stage in a knock-out competition, or by accumulating those points is ranked in the table at the end of a season. Whether a tournament like CL, FA cup, etc, or the PL, trophies are given to the best teams. And trophies are counted when you look at who is the most successful football club in a country.

Those "personal preferences" are a made up argument. Barcelona usually play a far more attractive football than Real Madrid, yet I believe there's no debate when it comes to who has had better runs in the CL, no?

At the end of the season it's all the same if you played well, but finished anywhere between 2nd and 17th. However any trophy gives you this warm fuzzy feeling that numbs the 8th place in the PL.
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Well I get why some Arsenal fans would make up an argument given their biases, but why would some Utd fans agree with it then?
 
United had a more successful season ...
But the better season? Arsenal, for sure.
There is a difference between the two.
 
At the end of the day, you don’t get remembered for finishing second. Performances are temporary, silverware lasts forever.

Obviously over the course of the season Arsenal have performed at a much higher level than us. But if you’re asking whether you’d rather go through a season pushing City to the last game day, or win an FA cup final against City…everyone should be saying the latter.

Well done Arsenal for the progress in your performances, but it’s still a roll of a dice on whether that’s going to continue next season. We won a trophy and that will go down in history. ;)
 
Its not just about finishing second and how much of an achievement you see that as.

The whole point of a competition is to win it so the "we won something and you didn't" angle works fine in isolation, but it doesn't work fine in the overall context of being successful, because football doesn't end and reset from one season to the next. No United fan can honestly say they believe United will win the league or CL next season, based on how this season has gone. Arsenal fans can make this argument for their team based on this season.

Also, and this applies especially to United. How you win things and how you perform is important at some clubs. LVG won an FA cup and got sacked. Jose won 2 trophies and even if he had won the FA Cup at the end of his second season AFTER finishing 2nd, the mood around him would have been entirely negative due to the nature and style of the team's performances. Where as again Arsenal this season have performed strongly and mostly played positive attacking football.

Its only the Arsenal fans that have cropped up on social media making silly opposite arguments like "I've never really considered trophies that relevant to a team's success" that is giving this argument any real credence, but tbf the fact its irked some people that much to make such ludicrous suggestions does suggest there is SOME credence to it...probably just the lingering possibility that Arsenal could win nothing again next year and then it really WAS all for nothing...but only time will tell
 
It is Redcafe so the answer obviously is Utd has a better season. I just wonder why only compare with Arsenal, and not all the teams finished above Utd bar City? Why compare ETH vs Arteta (Arteta is a rookie manager learning on the job, ETH isn't), and not all the head coaches/manager finished above Utd in the league bar Pep? Liverpool won the league cup and finished 3rd place as well. Why there is obsession to compare with Arsenal & Arteta?
 
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GoonerBear said:
It's a debate because people have differing opinions. That's usually the catalyst for a debate.

And it's also a debate without a 'correct' answer. It's not as simple as trophy / non trophy, there's lots of layers of context behind it. Mostly its to do with personal preference (with some supporter biases as well), and that's fine whatever side you think.
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I agree, from a trophy front obviously us but there’s a hugh cloud hanging over us that isn’t going to be shifted anytime soon. For me Arsenal had a much better season and continue to improve. I’d swap places with Arsenal‘s standing in a nano nano second.

They‘ll be serious title contenders again next year, something that United can only dream of. I expect Lego head to buy well again in the summer window. At worse Arsenal will win a cup competition.
 
I think we can filter out bias to this question by simply stating it for next season. Would United fans rather be in with a good shot of the PL title on the last day of next season, or would you rather finish 8th again and win the FA cup?

As an Arsenal fan I've seen us win the FA cup in recent years so many times so I would take a chance at the PL title every day over an FA Cup & mid-table for at least the next 5 years.
 
foolsgold said:
About the same I think, sure Arsenal finished 9 points ahead in the league but we won a cup and got to another final. That kinda evens out in my book.

I'd say both teams performed in excess of general expectations compared to 9 months ago.
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I'd say Arsenal- much as I personally dislike the Arse. It depends, of course, on how you measure the better season. We won a trophy, and Arsenal won nothing. That leads some to say that we had the better season. However, if you judge success by the quality of play, Arsenal had by far the better season. We've had an awful year, playing well in only a handful of games. Fortunately, we played really well against Citeh. Let's hope we improve next year. I think we will.
 
Jund said:
All due respect, couldn't disagree more. It is as simple as trophy/no trophy. Football is a competitive sport, the outcome of each game is determined by which team scored more goals. This is the way a team either progresses to a next stage in a knock-out competition, or by accumulating those points is ranked in the table at the end of a season. Whether a tournament like CL, FA cup, etc, or the PL, trophies are given to the best teams. And trophies are counted when you look at who is the most successful football club in a country.

Those "personal preferences" are a made up argument. Barcelona usually play a far more attractive football than Real Madrid, yet I believe there's no debate when it comes to who has had better runs in the CL, no?

At the end of the season it's all the same if you played well, but finished anywhere between 2nd and 17th. However any trophy gives you this warm fuzzy feeling that numbs the 8th place in the PL.
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By that logic, Arteta had the better season. He won the Charity Shield, after all.
 
flappyjay said:
4 years without a trophy for them. We were reminded over and over about our trophy drought. Arsenal are entering that phase, they need to win something soon.
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We have better form as we're on a 3 game winning streak ... Those games include Brighton, Newcastle and City :smirk:
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
It is Redcafe so the answer obviously is Utd has a better season. I just wonder why only compare with Arsenal, and not all the teams finished above Utd bar City? Why compare ETH vs Arteta (Arteta is a rookie manager learning on the job, ETH isn't), and not all the head coaches/manager finished above Utd in the league bar Pep? Liverpool won the league cup and finished 3rd place as well. Why there is obsession to compare with Arsenal & Arteta?
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It’s generally Arsenal fans I know making the comparison. Probably due to the fact they didn’t win anything, needing some sort of boost to confirm they had a better season than us.

Liverpool won something and came 3rd. That’s pretty black and white in comparison.
 
Arsenal, obviously.

This isn't a debate, shouldn't be a debate unless we've gone completely insane around here.

If you switch it around, there would be virtually zero question marks hanging over ETH like so many dark clouds.

And yes, of course you could twist this to mean: what is objectively better in a - say - historical context: finishing 2nd in the league (which nobody will remember) or winning the FA Cup (which some might - though the importance/status of the FA Cup ain't what it used to be, as we all know).

But why would you twist it? It's pretty feckin' obvious what actually matters here.

We haven't come anywhere close to challenging for the league in any season post SAF.

If ETH had come as close as Arteta did, the vast majority of United fans wouldn't dream of wanting him replaced at this stage.
 
noodlehair said:
Its not just about finishing second and how much of an achievement you see that as.

The whole point of a competition is to win it so the "we won something and you didn't" angle works fine in isolation, but it doesn't work fine in the overall context of being successful, because football doesn't end and reset from one season to the next. No United fan can honestly say they believe United will win the league or CL next season, based on how this season has gone. Arsenal fans can make this argument for their team based on this season.
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keithsingleton said:
They‘ll be serious title contenders again next year, something that United can only dream of. I expect Lego head to buy well again in the summer window. At worse Arsenal will win a cup competition.
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And when they do, they can rightfully claim to have the more successful season. Since so much emphasis is being placed on them being in a better position, them winning something eventually is inevitable, correct?
 
Anyone who thinks United had a better season than Arsenal has to be completely brainless
 
There’s is no empirically right or wrong answer. One could even argue that Spurs had the better season by virtue of holding their own despite losing the best player in the PL.

The way I look at is that Arsenal had their supporters glued to their seats in the realistic hope of lifting the PL trophy right down to the last day of the season. United supporters gave up any plausible hope of a PL title run by the early days of October. I’d much rather us be in the PL title hunt through the last day than bring home an FA Cup.
 
lex talionis said:
There’s is no empirically right or wrong answer. One could even argue that Spurs had the better season by virtue of holding their own despite losing the best player in the PL.

The way I look at is that Arsenal had their supporters glued to their seats in the realistic hope of lifting the PL trophy right down to the last day of the season. United supporters gave up any plausible hope of a PL title run by the early days of October. I’d much rather us be in the PL title hunt through the last day than bring home an FA Cup.
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If it comes to fruition yes; trophies are what it’s about. Nothing in football beats the feeling of hearing the final whistle when your team has won a trophy.
 
Arsenal, and it’s not even a diacussion for me. They’re also a much better team at the moment, which our points total reflects.
 
babablue said:
And when they do, they can rightfully claim to have the more successful season. Since so much emphasis is being placed on them being in a better position, them winning something eventually is inevitable, correct?
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Nope, which is why it's funny to wind up Arsenal fans (well the ones it works on) with this whole argument, because it's a silly argument but also one you can't technically argue is wrong.

But it is silly. United have had such a bad season the manager is reportedly going to be sacked and the club announced it would consider selling any of the players.
 
We created memories with the FA Cup win which will last generations.

Arsenal were better. They are better prepped for next season. I’d like to be in their place at the moment. But 23/24 will be a special year for the FA Cup for us. For them it won’t be special.
 
VARsenal said:
I think we can filter out bias to this question by simply stating it for next season. Would United fans rather be in with a good shot of the PL title on the last day of next season, or would you rather finish 8th again and win the FA cup?

As an Arsenal fan I've seen us win the FA cup in recent years so many times so I would take a chance at the PL title every day over an FA Cup & mid-table for at least the next 5 years.
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So you’d rather finish 2nd for five years consecutively than win the FA cup five seasons in a row?
 
TheReligion said:
So you’d rather finish 2nd for five years consecutively than win the FA cup five seasons in a row?
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to be fair, I can sort of understand an Arsenal fan saying that. But as United fan, I’d rather we won a trophy every year - while doing well in the league as well, of course.
 
Were these conversations had when Wenger was scraping fourth place and winning FA cups ?
 
maniak said:
If it was a cup with 8th place finishes 5 years in a row, I would.
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This isn’t even all that hypothetical. Wenger won 3 FA Cups in 4 years. He was sacked. I was Wenger In, but not because of the Cup wins - I just thought he might be able to turn it around.

Top teams challenge for the top honours - the PL and CL. If you finish mid table for half a decade, you aren’t doing either.

It’s funny, because if FA Cups are as prestigious as this thread is making out, it puts Wenger into the GOAT conversation with his 7 wins. I’m fine with that.
 
lsd said:
Anyone who thinks United had a better season than Arsenal has to be completely brainless
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United fans are some of the dumbest fans out there. Some of them are already happy to erase how bad we have been this season for a single match.
Arsenal are closer to a title, at least 3 years closer than we are
 
E-mal said:
United fans are some of the dumbest fans out there. Some of them are already happy to erase how bad we have been this season for a single match.
Arsenal are closer to a title, at least 3 years closer than we are
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Goldbridge comes to mind as one of these dumb United fans, although I have my doubts he’s actually a United and isn’t just a brilliant YouTuber who has mastered the art of instilling panic and loathing within the United fanbase.
 
Daydreamer said:
It’s funny, because if FA Cups are as prestigious as this thread is making out, it puts Wenger into the GOAT conversation with his 7 wins. I’m fine with that.
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No, because obviously winning leagues trumps winning the FA Cup, but finishing second doesn't.

Objectively, I'd say Arsenal had a better season overall, but when the dust settles there's no chance I'd swap our season for theirs considering the way it ended. Winning a final with two teenagers scoring in the final almost makes up for the rest of the season we've had and I'd take a cup win on the final day of our season over missing out on the league in the last game any day. You won't find many United fans reminiscing fondly over 2011/12, that's for sure.
 
You watch a club like Madrid tonight and see what winning trophies means. It's everything.

It sets the foundation for more success. It's the only thing people will remember when its all done and dusted.

Meanwhile we are sat here discussing if Arteta's Arsenal who have won nothing......again, have had a better season than United, who have.

Mental.
 
Maybe last season it was debatable. They were 2nd with 84 points and no trophy while we finished 3rd (9 points less) but won Carabao Cup and got to Fa Cup final.

However, this season Arsenal, of course. We're so far from a team getting 89 points in a season and they are actually really good side. Wenger won the Fa Cup in 2017 beating City in semis and champions Chelsea in the final but still finished 5th and lost 10-2 to Bayern in last 16 of CL.
 
Daydreamer said:
This isn’t even all that hypothetical. Wenger won 3 FA Cups in 4 years. He was sacked. I was Wenger In, but not because of the Cup wins - I just thought he might be able to turn it around.

Top teams challenge for the top honours - the PL and CL. If you finish mid table for half a decade, you aren’t doing either.

It’s funny, because if FA Cups are as prestigious as this thread is making out, it puts Wenger into the GOAT conversation with his 7 wins. I’m fine with that.
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Anyway. I think it boils down to how much value you put on Champions League football. No one cares what position you finish in really. If you don’t win the league it means nothing. Nor does your points total.

In terms of this season, the FA Cup win, in context, was really special for United fans. Beating our bitter dominant local rivals whilst no one giving us so much of a chance, two academy players getting the goals..

Make the most of every trophy and every big day out, because you never know when the ride is going to stop.
 
TheReligion said:
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Irrelevant. We’ve won 14 FA Cups.

If this thread has taught me anything, it’s that FA Cups are the ultimate acid test of greatness and that winning it trumps all other context when assessing a team.
 
The club that actually won a trophy. Football is about trophies.

I know they won community shield, but FA Cup weights more, and it being a super cup should count more for the previous season.
 
Daydreamer said:
Irrelevant. We’ve won 14 FA Cups.

If this thread has taught me anything, it’s that FA Cups are the ultimate acid test of greatness and that winning it trumps all other context when assessing a team.
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I think the take home should be simple really.

Winning silverware is better than winning nothing. End of sermon.
 
I get the whole trophy argument. But I would not be happy if we won the FA Cup next season and finished 8th with a negative goal difference.

I would not swap places with Man United right now, because United and Ten Hag have next to no chance of winning the league next year, where as the chances of Arsenal winning the league are plausible given the current gulf in quality.

The fans out there who say they would rather finish 16th and win a League Cup than finish 3rd and win no trophies - if they were football chairmen, the League Cup would all they ever win with that backwards mentality.
 
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