Who had the better season? Arsenal or Man utd?

Kirk lazarus said:
I get the gist of your point , but the first thing that hits me about it, is the assumption that we had /have exactly the same capability as arsenal to feature in what you describe as 'a very close title race playing exciting football with a decent CL run '

It's relative . We aren't West Ham either , but if somebody asked you , who had the most successful season exactly 1 year ago . Arsenals 2nd or West hams cup , what would your answer be ?

Perspective is required , we all want United to be fighting on all fronts whilst playing exciting football every week , but anyone who thinks we were capable of that this season or any season post Saf , is frankly mad .

For what it's worth , I think Arsenal have shown progression and are cementing their status as a serious contender. I'm sure they will be good again next season .

In 10 years time , nobody is going to be harking back to arsenals glorious ' progressive ' Arteta campaigns if there is nothing to show for it .

Progression without success is nothing . Success is success .
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No one is going to harken back to the Arteta era if all he wins are a couple domestic cups either. No one harkens back to late era Wenger just because he won the FA Cup 3 out of 4 years nor does anyone refer to that era as successful because he wasn't close to winning the league.

Reality is, people only harken back to league and CL winners. Only way Arteta will be viewed as a success is if he wins the league. A few domestic cups means feck all in the grand scheme of football history.
 
Well the thread title gives it away Arsenal by far and away had the better season and United achieved a more significant accolade.

Season is an accumulative account and the reality that one manager might lose his job while the others is secure sums it up entirely.

It's like saying Wigan had a better season than United (2nd), Arsenal (3rd) and Tottenham (4th), because they won the FA cup. As stated more significant accolade but doesn't reflect the entirety of the season.
 
Rista said:
So would you be happy if our next season goes the same way as this one? Being in the title race until the last game and playing in the CL would be a hugely bigger deal for us at this point in time. If we were an actual top side then cups would come, based on form and luck as is the case in cup competitions. It's far more important for our future to work on becoming that top side than being a cup underdog with epic wins here and there. These cup wins are sadly not an indicator of progress of getting there.
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I've always been quite consistent that I want us to win trophies first and foremost - but that I also recognise there's a ranking tier of trophies so would much rather win the PL and CL, then FA Cup or Europa, then League Cup or Conference League.

So of course I want to see us back challenging for the PL and CL over time. But we're nowhere near that at the moment, so my comments about this season were based on where we are at present - which is only capable of competing to win the other four trophies, not the PL or CL. So if the two options are top four but no trophy, or outside top 4 but a trophy then I'd rather the latter for now.

But winning those titles will also help us with our rebuild. And next year I'd be more than happy if we finish outside the top 4 but win the Europa League and qualify for the CL that way
 
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Bertie Wooster said:
I've always been quite consistent that I want us to win trophies first and foremost - but that I also recognise there's a ranking tier of trophies so would much rather win the PL and CL, then FA Cup or Europa, then League Cup or Conference League.

So of course I want to see us back challenging for the PL and CL over time. But we're nowhere near that at the moment, so my comments about this season were based on where we are at present - which is only capable of competing to win the other four trophies, not the PL or CL. So if the two options are top four but no trophy, or outside top 4 but a trophy then I'd rather the latter for now.

But winning those titles will also help us with our rebuild. And next year I'd be more than happy if we finish outside the top 4 but win the Europa League and qualify for the CL that way
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I think specifically where we are right now it would be far more beneficial to work towards being that side to compete for PL and CL. To try being the best of the rest at least. We're unlikely to magically go from 5th-8th to title contenders one day. Another season outside CL spots would be terrible imo. It's the league and its 38 games that are much more of an indicator where we are at certain point in time. Cups are much more luck reliant and variance is much greater. For instance Liverpool are currently behind City and Arsenal but they are still in a very good spot and you can never write them off as far as title challenge goes. That's where I'd like to see us to be as soon as we can. Cups are a nice bonus.
 
Rista said:
I think specifically where we are right now it would be far more beneficial to work towards being that side to compete for PL and CL. To try being the best of the rest at least. We're unlikely to magically go from 5th-8th to title contenders one day. Another season outside CL spots would be terrible imo. It's the league and its 38 games that are much more of an indicator where we are at certain point in time. Cups are much more luck reliant and variance is much greater. For instance Liverpool are currently behind City and Arsenal but they are still in a very good spot and you can never write them off as far as title challenge goes. That's where I'd like to see us to be as soon as we can. Cups are a nice bonus.
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Fair point about the next step at some point becoming a team establishing themselves back in the CL before we have a hope of winning that or the PL.

I'd disagree about the domestic cups though. The last ten years of the League Cup, and the last thirty years of the FA Cup (barring a handful of times), the cups are won by the strongest half dozen or so teams in the country - Man United, Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal... So I wouldn't say that they're much more luck reliant and a lot of variance. You get the very occasional shock winner, but the vast majority of times they're won by teams also finishing pretty high in the PL. And usually the same half dozen sides. So it's good that we're one of them for me.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
All I remember is we choked 11/12 and in 03/04 we won an FA Cup.
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It's the overriding memory at the end for me too, but to choke you have to be good to begin with. The FA Cup in 03/04 was a nicer way to end the season but the players from 11/12 deserve more respect and admiration for their performance.
 
Arsenal had a much better season.
Youu guys, however, had a much better end to yours.
 
Would I trade yesterday for their season and CL qualification? Honestly, there is no chance.

It was a special day. Having that moment and that trophy in that context trumps a good season overall with no prizes.
 
Arsenal had a better season and are the better club right now.
 
Put it this way.

Do you think Arsenal fans will look back at 2nd place years from now and talk about this achievement in glowing terms?

Absolutely not.

Silverware everytime.
 
Irishman said:
Put it this way.

Do you think Arsenal fans will look back at 2nd place years from now and talk about this achievement in glowing terms?

Absolutely not.

Silverware everytime.
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Yeah, but the reality is that Manchester United fans won't be doing that either about an FA Cup win unless its the start of something bigger and then acquires some kind of larger significance.

Does anybody look back at the FA Cup win under LVG and talk about the achievement in glowing terms?
 
2nd and quarter final of the CL… We finished 8th and dead last of our CL group. Of course they had a better season.

But we won the Cup and that is a very good achievement.
 
Someone said it well elsewhere.
Clearly currently Arsenal are a good level ahead and can compete for all the pots.

But in 10 years looking back you'd prefer to have the Fa cup then come 2nd when other positions are likely to change. We hope!
 
Powderfinger said:
Yeah, but the reality is that Manchester United fans won't be doing that either about an FA Cup win unless its the start of something bigger and then acquires some kind of larger significance.

Does anybody look back at the FA Cup win under LVG and talk about the achievement in glowing terms?
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Well compared to the 2nd place finishes under Ole and Jose... Hell, even the 2nd place finish in 11-12.
 
This shouldn’t even be an argument. Arsenal most definitely had the better season - many of their signings worked out and they finished 2nd and almost won the title. Got into the quarters of CL (do you remember the last time we did that?).

We won the FA Cup (good achievement all things considered) but otherwise it’s been a disastrous season in terms of results, players regressing and in terms of the outlook for the season ahead.
 
United had a far better season. FA Cup trophy vs nothing.
 
Chipper said:
It's the overriding memory at the end for me too, but to choke you have to be good to begin with. The FA Cup in 03/04 was a nicer way to end the season but the players from 11/12 deserve more respect and admiration for their performance.
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Come'on, man. I think you're kidding yourself a little. The only memory most people have from that season is losing 1-0 to Wigan and drawing 4-4 to Everton.
 
Irishman said:
Put it this way.

Do you think Arsenal fans will look back at 2nd place years from now and talk about this achievement in glowing terms?

Absolutely not.

Silverware everytime.
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There's 2nds and there's 2nds. I barely remember that we were 2nd to Leicester. 49 points out of the last 54 and taking City to the final day will be remembered.

For that matter, there's FA Cups and there's FA Cups. You'll remember this one papering over an otherwise forgettable season far more than I will remember sneaking past Hull after an equally forgettable (if slightly higher league placed) season.
 
Would I swap beating City in a cup final for second place and no silverware?

No. Never. United are about the trophies and against City it’s SO sweet!
 
Arsenal had a better season even without a trophy as they improved on last season, pushed hard in the league, had an ok showing in the Champions League in their first appearance for some time and can go again next season under Arteta with more experience in the bank. Of course they have to win something at some point to prevent it all being somewhat pointless but they can be reasonably contented.

I find Liverpool a more interesting comparison to us. Yes they did win a trophy as we did and they also gained CL qualification in 3rd place. But, this was Klopp’s last season so for Klopp’s Liverpool CL qualification is pretty meaningless. They will have a transition period now and if there is a drop off then finishing 3rd this season is of no real benefit to them. So for them it really was all about the trophy haul. In cup competitions they failed to win the Europa League which they probably felt they were strong favourites for and in the FA cup they were knocked out by a depleted and out of form Man United. Add to that their failure to beat us in either league fixture and the way their season tailed off into a whimper after the two results at Old Trafford. Can they say they had a better season than us?
 
Sandikan said:
Someone said it well elsewhere.
Clearly currently Arsenal are a good level ahead and can compete for all the pots.

But in 10 years looking back you'd prefer to have the Fa cup then come 2nd when other positions are likely to change. We hope!
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Thing is, we're not 10 years from now :D

Comes down to a simple question for me: do you prefer to be in United's current situation, at 26/05/2024, or do you think you'd rather prefer to be in Arsenal's situation?
 
Di Maria's angel said:
Come'on, man. I think you're kidding yourself a little. The only memory most people have from that season is losing 1-0 to Wigan and drawing 4-4 to Everton.
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89 points, one of the highest points tally in the history of the EPL… Losing the league on GD to the state backed cheating gang that needed 2 injury time goals to steal it…
 
Di Maria's angel said:
Come'on, man. I think you're kidding yourself a little. The only memory most people have from that season is losing 1-0 to Wigan and drawing 4-4 to Everton.
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I'm not most people, I'm me! :lol: Nah, it's a personal thing though, no absolute right and wrong.

It's not even memories of the football as such, it's memories of how good I felt about us as a club if that makes sense, how I felt about the future and our standing in the game. I know I felt more highly of the 11/12 team than the 03/04 one at the time even if I was obviously happier about winning the cup compared to being gutted that we lost the league. Recognition of overall quality over a brief high.

One thing I do remember is the 8-2 v Arsenal at the start of the season, that was a good one.

03/04 felt underwhelming as a whole compared to what we'd grown accustomed to, the Cup final win didn't change that but was still a nice little end to the seson. Playing Millwall even made that a bit anti-climatic compared to most cup finals. I remember being extremely jealous of all the attention Arsenal were getting and the feeling of being miles behind them. I didn't have much hope of winning the league the following year over the summer unlike the summer following 11/12 where I wanted revenge and thought we had a chance considering how close we were.
 
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All this talk of future and potential is reminding me of Poch‘s Spurs. “Trophies are for egos” and all that.

Bird in hand is worth two in the bush as they say. We had the better season.
 
Pintu said:
89 points, one of the highest points tally in the history of the EPL… Losing the league on GD to the state backed cheating gang that needed 2 injury time goals to steal it…
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We're all different as @Chipper says but my overriding memory of that season is throwing the title having been 8 points ahead. Yes, I do remember the 8-2 against Arsenal but that made no difference to the sickening feeling I felt when Aguero scored. I still remember what i was doing when he scored.
 
I would rather have 2 seasons of brilliant football going toe to toe with the 115 club. Don't forget that they were also better than Liverpool under Klopp for 2 seasons. Arsenal did well in CL too.

Compared to us? Let's be honest, we have a disastrous season. We have broken all records on number of losses, chances conceded, GD, negative style of play and whatnot. We are way off compared to Arsenal.

Before we even want to challenge City we would do well to aspire to reach Arsenal level first. How can we have a better season? It's bizzare.
 
We are where we deserved to be. 8th. They have a better squad and will be very competitive again in the league and in CL next season. We are no where near good enough for next season unless we have a smart transfer window, which doesn’t look likely as we are deep in transition.

But better season? Not sure about it but I definitely think ours is much more satisfying.
 
Arsenal, not even a question.

Who had the better season in 2012-13, Man City or Wigan?

Same idea.
 
It’s an interesting question. Silverware, emotion, passion. Beating pool on the way to Wembley. Stuffing the cheats deservedly. Versus great results. Goal difference. Points tally. As a project, Arsenal are ahead by a country mile. But the 115 got more points. So it’s the cruellest burn. Maybe Arsenal will get their medals in the post in 2027.
 
Redstain said:
Well the thread title gives it away Arsenal by far and away had the better season and United achieved a more significant accolade.

Season is an accumulative account and the reality that one manager might lose his job while the others is secure sums it up entirely.

It's like saying Wigan had a better season than United (2nd), Arsenal (3rd) and Tottenham (4th), because they won the FA cup. As stated more significant accolade but doesn't reflect the entirety of the season.
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It’s not really. Because: a) United won the league the season Wigan won the cup and b) they also got relegated. Winning the fa cup is not enough to trump relegation.

Winning the cup at the expense of a title race is probably ok for one year, but maybe not as a regular thing.
 
Arsenal are definitely well positioned to win more trophies than us. But they better start winning something. They cant look down on any piece of silverware now.

When people look back at this season after a decade or so, they will only remember the silverware. So Utd got themselves into history books.

I would still 100% take Arsenal's performances over the course of the season because they look a well oiled machine whereas we are rudderless and will be starting from scratch yet again with same core of useless players who are not good enough to sustain a good level of performances over the course of a season.
 
TheReligion said:
Would I swap beating City in a cup final for second place and no silverware?

No. Never. United are about the trophies and against City it’s SO sweet!
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As much as I like being in the Champions League, I'd say the same. Both on an emotional level and a level of records, you'll look back in 10 years time and remember a fantastic and dramatic run towards winning the FA Cup + the trophy cabinet is just bigger. A second place is always a feeling of regret and is never remembered.

But on measurable progress towards winning a title, then yes Arsenal are clearly ahead of us. In the bigger picture I think Arteta will win more trophies if Pep leaves because they are now ready to be the new dominating team, so the second place was probably not "for nothing".
 
Arteta is turning out to be the next Wenger. Great football but otherwise always there but never really there. No trophies for 4 years. I'm sure Arsenal fans can be happy at the progress they've made compared to the decade previous, but it's not really amounting to anything end of the day. Their key players will eventually move on at this rate.
 
TheReligion said:
Would I swap beating City in a cup final for second place and no silverware?

No. Never. United are about the trophies and against City it’s SO sweet!
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With this simplistic thinking you'd be happy to win a league cup and finish 16th in the league yeah?
 
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