This is why it was so bad. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but even forgetting how terrible we were when Ole turned permanent and we inexplicably missed out on top four - there was never a shred of evidence that he had what it takes to challenge for elite trophies even after extensive backing and yet he’s both our longest serving manager post SAF and our least decorated.
Which manager left the team in the worst state?
- Thread starter sullydnl
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Agree on coaching and captain choice. I don’t think he could be blamed for contracts and squad imbalance. The mentality and internal harmony was pretty good before this season, and I blame the people behind the Ronaldo deal for that. The internal hierarchy was messed up, and the British players (leader group) started to underperform big time.
Ole for so many reasons but above all of them that he allowed the culture within the club to become an absolute shambles and that he allowed the overall standards to drop.
The more you think about it the more I feel that Jose was right. The player power got strong because of Woodward.
Ole came and gave them everything they wanted and they stabbed him in the back.
All managers were undermined by Woodward.
Ole came and gave them everything they wanted and they stabbed him in the back.
All managers were undermined by Woodward.
That is exactly how I saw it. The moment the club picks the players’ side, is the moment that the club goes into a managerial graveyard.
I’m sure I heard some players had the phone number to speak/moan to Woodward direct and bypass the manager.
Imagine what that must do to a manager when he gets a call from Woodward saying “I’ve been told by some players there was no custard with apple pie today”
You say I have no idea and after you just made up your whole argument to begin with?
Is Ralf Rangnick supposed to go out there and run for these players? Was it Ralf Rangnick that ran 10 kilometers less than the Everton team? That's literally a player's worth of running, it's like we played with 10 men the whole game!
And finally, you have got to be delusional if you think these players are acomplised. Our spine is as weak as a jelly bean. Apart from an aging Ronaldo, who relies on others to provide service, and De Gea, who is not an outfiled player, all the rest of our players have won jack shit. Varane is another but the guy has been signed on a 15-hour-per-week contract.
Shaw performed for a WC spot last season. I think much of what Ole “accomplished” with player performances was down to not being the absolute thundercnut Mourinho was. But of course long term they were just going to take advantage of his buddy routine. “Rashy” FFS.
If our snakes threw ole under the bus then no manager is safe because ole was their mate and still got thrown under.
That's why I primarily put the blame on the players, the manager can't do shit if the players don't listen and the board doesn't back up the manager and instead tells him to continue playing the same players.
Man management doesn't mean licking arse of players, they either follow instructions or feck off. No one is going to coddle them to "buy into" the managers instructions.
No top manager wastes his time in making players "buy into" there instructions, they're just fecked off instantly and the other players get the message loud and clear and that my delusional dear sir is whats called man management and not this hand holding coddling nonsense.
Christ. Have you ever managed a group of people? 1. interim managers don’t have that capability to sell all the players. Neither did Tuchel to win the Champions League. Do you think he told the players “do this or I’m selling you” and that’s all it took.
2. there’s quite literally decades of theories and research to show this is not an effective way to manage or motivate people.
3. In what way did the above poster suggest arse licking = man management.
4. Jose tried this and the dressing rooms collapsed at several clubs after a few years.
This. Ole has let the players do whatever they want so they gain so much power and he did nothing to stop them. Because of his total incompetence he must pander to them or else. The results are bunch of nothing players who think they are billy big bollox and the next second coming of pele.
I cannot believe we are still blaming the manager for our plight. The players at UTD have let everyone down including themselves for the last 2 seasons. Ralf is just a figurehead. Some of those players need to be shipped out and they clearly will be. Pogba has been a disgrace over his 5 seasons and to allow him to walk away for nothing shows how desperate we are. Fergie would have shipped him out long ago - we are keeping him for marketing purposes only. It was only about his playing ability until he showed us he clearly didnt care about playing either. Ronaldo has to go - gret player for us in the past but coming back has been a mistake in his otherwise perfect career. I think Martial will stay - simply because no one will buy him so we are stuck. Cavani, Linguard, Mata gone. Rashford may improve under ETH, Elanga the same, Greenwood will be back. Fernandes - the team will only be different in MF and we have Garner and VDB back. Plus Mejbri.
DDG - Dalot, Maguire, Varane, Shaw, Fred, MCT, Garner, Sancho, Fernandes, Rashford. Under the right manager thats a top 5-10 team straightaway. Bang in one or 2 more players and you may be looking near top 4. Its not all that bad is it?
DDG - Dalot, Maguire, Varane, Shaw, Fred, MCT, Garner, Sancho, Fernandes, Rashford. Under the right manager thats a top 5-10 team straightaway. Bang in one or 2 more players and you may be looking near top 4. Its not all that bad is it?
I’m guessing you’ve never managed anyone, in any capacity, ever, eh Finchy?
Man management is using different techniques with different players to achieve optimal results.
If the best way to get results is the “stick”, and Ralf isn’t employing that technique, then that’s on him too.
Read a book, I’d start with SAF’s biography first, and you’ll get an idea of what man management entails….
Spot on.
1. interim managers don’t have that capability to sell all the players. Neither did Tuchel to win the Champions League. Do you think he told the players “do this or I’m selling you” and that’s all it took.
2. there’s quite literally decades of theories and research to show this is not an effective way to manage or motivate people.
3. In what way did the above poster suggest arse licking = man management.
4. Jose tried this and the dressing rooms collapsed at several clubs after a few years.
Ronaldo is 37 years old. Nobody is going to get a tune out of him and he strops whenever he’s dropped. He’s a massive pain in the hole for any manager right now and that’s not Ralf’s fault.
You have a very rudimentary understanding of the distance covered stat. It doesn’t really indicate whether a team is good or not (Leeds has the highest distance covered), teams with a lot of possession tend to run a bit less (Man City is middle of the pack) and it is very position specific.
https://theanalyst.com/na/2021/10/season-snapshot-storylines-from-the-premier-league-so-far/
https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr68/en/
Rashford does slowly job back sometimes — Pogba drives me crazy — but isn’t it up to Ralf to bench them or put the fear of God into them? Their value goes down if he doesn’t play them, even as an interim.
Ralf has the worst managerial record for a United manager since Dave Sexton, 41 years ago!!! We have internationals all over the squad! We have multiple CL winners, league winners! We finished 2nd last season! Ole wasn’t good enough (better than Ralf though IMHO), but that doesn’t mean Ralf is better. He’s not. He’s been patently awful and we should not give him a pass.
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‘Disagree.
I don’t see an effort issue with Ronaldo. I see frustration and a player who is out of form and probably lacking confidence like everyone else on this team. Technically, he’s still brilliant. He’s lost a step, but still running 34kph at times.
It’s Ralf’s job to get the best out of the players. He’s failed to do that. His job was to get top 4. He’s failed to do that. I can guarantee that the board is very unhappy with Ralf’s performance, the team’s performance, and the players are not blameless. It’s called nuance — the players can be performing poorly AND Ralf can be bad. It shouldn’t be a stretch, intellectually at least, to see that there are multiple factors behind our position in the table.
I blame the Glazers.
This is exactly what player power is and we have seen it in other clubs also. Pogba is 99% out in the summer what is his motivation to jog let alone run. Rashford seems to think he is better than the club and the players so he is acting like a spoilt brat. RR Benched both of them, but they know RR Is only a short term project and it's not worth doing anything. Plus they earn if they play or not so what exactly is the incentive for them?
RR could have played academy players but that just means the younger players are under scrutiny and that's not what they need at this point. if players are not playing to the instructions of the coach/Manager then the casualty is usually the manager 9 times out of 10. RR cannot force players to run or follow instructions. So what exactly is he supposed to do?
So many knee jerks claiming ole when I can't think of a single player bought by LVG who actually did anything for the club. Herrera, Shaw and Martial were his best purchases, enough said.
Thank you. That guy seems to think Ralf should get the old ruler out and dish out corporal punishment, as if this is the Victorian times. Because at this time we seem to have exhausted every way of enforcing discipline.
I usually defend players when things turn sour but here it is so bloody obvious these guys cannot be arsed, even Stevie Wonder would see it.
So let’s take the opposite approach and assume all players are lazy.
How does Pep get players to run? Klopp? Simeone? How do the national team coaches get Pogba to run? Bruno?
‘Ralf’s job is literally to get the players to follow his instructions. If he can’t do that, he’s not doing his job. If they are following his instructions and we’re still losing, that’s an issue as well, isn’t it?
Theyy don't play if they don't do the basics.
Unfortunately, United isn't in a position to not play a few of the players and, please remember, these aren't Ralf's players anyway. They're just inherited from previous bad/good buys.
In addition to that, a few of them got to play in a very functional system under LVG, then in a "let's be men and wing it" system under Mourinho and in god knows what under Ole. Most of them need to be moved on as their development has been hugely affected.
Ralf's job is literally to get some stability until the summer and finish the season. The club waved the season goodbye when they appointed him and you should have seen that a mile a way.
His only job since he came in was to steady the ship and start putting methods in place that will be carried over by the next man. So, basically, he's doing part of the job ETH would do anyway. Try to play a new system, with a new style and see who's on board or not.
When ETH or any other manager comes in, he'll have a competent squad report built by a proper manager not some amateur like we had before. Added to that, he'll find a good training structure with a few new methods implemented that he can take over.
It's a very basic concept called change management and it applies absolutely everywhere, from construction to business and sport.
You are comparing RR with a completely different set of people. Pep and Klopp are established mangers who have had 2-3 seasons to get the team they want and compete for the laurels. RR is managing a sinking ship and he only has 6 months to keep it afloat. The players know that they wont go down with the ship and see life boats across so how do you motivate them? You see the difference?
At last someone talking some sense.
I wouldn't bother with him. I regret taking him off ignore and quoting
Has to be Ole, and surely if he wasn’t a club legend more people would see his 3 years for what it really was. Yes we had high finishes mostly due to other clubs having injuries etc. but during that time he wasted money on Maguire, AWB that £120m.
He didn’t actually improve or develop the players we had. He did implement any playing style.
Probably worse of all was that he pandered to the player power mentality and allowed it to grow. Now we have players who don’t take responsibility, leak stuff whenever they don’t get their way, and don’t have a winning mentality.
He didn’t actually improve or develop the players we had. He did implement any playing style.
Probably worse of all was that he pandered to the player power mentality and allowed it to grow. Now we have players who don’t take responsibility, leak stuff whenever they don’t get their way, and don’t have a winning mentality.
I see. So you're saying that Ralf doesn't need to do his job because he didn't buy the players he is coaching.
The job of the interim is literally to motivate and organize the squad to get results.
The difference is you are absolving Ralf of all blame in team performances and I am not. That's the difference.
I assure you, the feeling is mutual.I wouldn't bother with him. I regret taking him off ignore and quoting
Mate you are all over the place figure out what you want to argue first and then post your response.
I've been pretty clear all along. Sorry if you can't follow. Ralf is a shitty manager.
I love Van Gaal the personality but it's him....
IMo he chinned off most of Fergie's players too soon.
And the signings he replaced them with under his watch were poor....Most of them were shown the door within the next couple of years. He left behind Mourinho a shit load of mess to deal with.
IMo he chinned off most of Fergie's players too soon.
And the signings he replaced them with under his watch were poor....Most of them were shown the door within the next couple of years. He left behind Mourinho a shit load of mess to deal with.
Sir Alex?
Ole left behind the best squad.
Unfortunately, due to the lack of coaching, tactical nous, drive and mentality; it's an absolute fecking shit-show. It's also a squad that won nothing for 3-years, under an amateur regime.
It's a tough question though, and I see all 4 post-Fergie appointments as absolutely colossal failures. The squads left behind by LvG, Jose and Ole have all been really problematic, in their own rights. Giving Ole 3-years was sheer madness, but whatever, time to move on.
Unfortunately, due to the lack of coaching, tactical nous, drive and mentality; it's an absolute fecking shit-show. It's also a squad that won nothing for 3-years, under an amateur regime.
It's a tough question though, and I see all 4 post-Fergie appointments as absolutely colossal failures. The squads left behind by LvG, Jose and Ole have all been really problematic, in their own rights. Giving Ole 3-years was sheer madness, but whatever, time to move on.
Another issue is that this squad is a mix of players bought by Fergie, LvG, Moyes, Jose and Ole. That in-itself is fecking bonkers.
If you look at City and Liverpool; their squads are comprised of players they've bought or, brought through (I'm sure there are some obvious exceptions like Milner, Henderson etc). We have basically had 9-years of the wrong appointments, buying random players who don't fit any particular system.
Our problems are deep-rooted and run deeper than the manager, obviously. It looks as though we are finally evolving in a structural sense, and bringing on board a team builder like ETH, will hopefully get us out of this slump. Unfortunately, Ole and Jose have left behind the remnants of a broken, dis-joined collection of players (can they even be called a squad?).
I'm cautiously optimistic for the future; providing we get ETH, of course. Although Ole's tenure was a shit-show; hopefully it's brought around a positive structural change at the club, and an actual thought process in appointing the new manager.
If you look at City and Liverpool; their squads are comprised of players they've bought or, brought through (I'm sure there are some obvious exceptions like Milner, Henderson etc). We have basically had 9-years of the wrong appointments, buying random players who don't fit any particular system.
Our problems are deep-rooted and run deeper than the manager, obviously. It looks as though we are finally evolving in a structural sense, and bringing on board a team builder like ETH, will hopefully get us out of this slump. Unfortunately, Ole and Jose have left behind the remnants of a broken, dis-joined collection of players (can they even be called a squad?).
I'm cautiously optimistic for the future; providing we get ETH, of course. Although Ole's tenure was a shit-show; hopefully it's brought around a positive structural change at the club, and an actual thought process in appointing the new manager.
Moyes still tops the cake of shit as far as I'm concerned. He was bequeathed a PL-winning squad and squandered it. Yes, it was an aging squad but he was given everything he needed to rebuild it. But what did he do? He bought Fellaini. And then Mata. Unlike Ole and even Jose, Moyes never had a glorious run during his reign and he didn't even last a season. The rubble he left behind was immense.
Don't get me wrong. I get the case for the other managers being shit cake toppers, but the damage Moyes did to the club is still being felt, almost a decade later.
Don't get me wrong. I get the case for the other managers being shit cake toppers, but the damage Moyes did to the club is still being felt, almost a decade later.
The difference is LVG's purchases were relatively easy to move on. We recouped a fair bit of Di Maria's fee, Blind was also sold back to Ajax, Herrera left us on a free which was frustrating and something we couldn't control. Shaw and Martial were actually decent for us in spells.
Ole on the other hand decided to spunk millions on players who we're going to struggle offloading. We can't get rid of Maguire and AWB without making a huge loss, and even then which club is going to offer them similar wages? We're struck with them unless we can dupe Newcastle, or they feck off on a free years from now.
Unfortunately this poll and thread are a great example of recency bias - because Ole was most recent and the players he's left behind are currently uninterested in performing for an interim manager, he's automatically the worst.
It's forgetting that Moyes gutted a title winning team, adding only Fellaini and Mata, LvG seemed to roll dice to decide on who to bring in (and shipped out plenty), Mou paid huge money for players that didn't want to be here (Lukaku, Sanchez, etc) and left with the club basically in full mutiny.
Not that Ole has left a brilliant squad or anything, but I think we'll have to wait a couple of years and see what ETH does with it to see how good/bad what Ole left behind really is.
It's forgetting that Moyes gutted a title winning team, adding only Fellaini and Mata, LvG seemed to roll dice to decide on who to bring in (and shipped out plenty), Mou paid huge money for players that didn't want to be here (Lukaku, Sanchez, etc) and left with the club basically in full mutiny.
Not that Ole has left a brilliant squad or anything, but I think we'll have to wait a couple of years and see what ETH does with it to see how good/bad what Ole left behind really is.
Wow shocked by the result. surely its Moyes
In hindsight these were very good players and still are. Di Maria and Herrera still plays constantly in PSG and Blind is key player for ETH Ajax team. We could do with them right now. (Di Maria = RW, Herrera > McT, Blind > Maguire, etc)