Great thread this
When does No Value/Happy with....
- Thread starter Ramshock
- Start date
This has been done to death. We can't keep "hoping" that they will stay injury free when it's blatantly obvious they won't. Anderson has had 5 years to cement his place in a weakening United midfield and we are still waiting. Cleverley will develop into a good midfield player but he's got a lot to learn about playing in a two-man midfield. They both lack the discipline required for a two-man setup. They are both good players but we need better than good right now.
Has he really though? He played well against a dreadful Wolves at OT and a negative QPR at Loftus Road. In reality he is a central defender first and foremost and we should not be expecting him to play regularly in midfield for an elite club. His positional play requires polish and his natural enthusiasm to chase down the ball is in direct oppostion to the discipline required of a central midfielder. At Anfield he was so naive it was painful to watch. Even Charlie Adam took the piss out of him.
I'm sorry but the jury is still out. If he does reach his potential then he will have developed into a good midfielder but still he should not be a first eleven shoe-in. Aside from a timeless 38 year old we don't have any great midfielders who can run the show week in week out. And lets face it..Scholes isn't the player of even 3-4 years ago, he can't be relied upon to play 30+ Premier League games.
The thing is, if I was SAF....won everything there is to win, knighted, looking for new forms of entertainment to pass the time...I'd probably consider wumming the muppets in the close season for a few years, just for shits and giggles. He's earned the right to do that
See, this is the thing for me. I'm fully in agreement that the jury is still out on Cleverley, and to a certain extent with Anderson as well though he's closer to last chance saloon than Cleverley is for me.
However, I'd rather us give Cleverley a proper shot, as in 20 or so Premier League starts, while Scholes is still there to pick up the remainder of games and act as cover than just to bring someone in now for big money and risk not allowing Cleverley to develop at all.
I would be delighted were we to sign a new midfielder, I think everyone would, but it would be just as exciting for me to see how Cleverley gets on with added responsibility and to see if Anderson can step up to the plate before it really is too late for him. Giving that one more go while Scholes is still there is not a bad way forward for me.
We'd be fine if numbers if we had Reo-Coker, Andrews, Delap, Hendrie and Karl Henry in our midfield. It'd still be not good enough.
Also, we're not fine in numbers when 2 of our 5 midfielders are extremely injury prone and 2 will have to retire at the end of season, leaving us with Carrick and two unfit midfielders.
Our lack of an alternatives for Carrick is the most worrying thing. I say we are top heavy when it comes to attacking midfield talent:
i.e
2 trusted old guards: Giggs and Scholes
2 talented injury prone lads: Cleverly and Anderson
2 up and coming prospects: Powell and Petrucci
A new signing: Kagawa
i.e
2 trusted old guards: Giggs and Scholes
2 talented injury prone lads: Cleverly and Anderson
2 up and coming prospects: Powell and Petrucci
A new signing: Kagawa
It has been for years now, it's nice that (some) of the muppets seem to have finally noticed. It rather makes me wish that Fergie would finally succumb to the inevitable and sign Rodwell, because there's no possible world in which he'll sign Martinez or Mvilla, so we might as well get in the inevitable signing now so we have at least some cover.
Carrick, Scholes, Anderson, Clverley and Giggs are much better than Reo-Coker and company.
As I said, much comes down to the fitness of certain players, as well as the roles Sir Alex sees for Powell, Jones, Tunnicliffe and Kagawa.
Players leaving AFTER this season is irrelevant.
Sorry Cnut but that just idiotic statement to make. First of all - it will be obvious for any club we will want to buy from - that we don't have sufficient personnel in this department. In that case bargaining potion of United will be much weaker so we will pay extra. How much extra? 5-10 mil? maybe less. I don't know how much but I would charge extra knowing that other side needs something i have at my disposal. The same thing will happen when we will be negotiating personal terms. I know that we usually get people with the right mentality for whom money is not priority but coming players will ask for more than market wage. This might destabilize the whole wage structure.
Another thing - that getting a cm now, when Goggs, Scholes, Carrick and co are still here will mean an easier start. The burden of expectations won't be that heavy.
That is why the sooner we get our targeted CM he better. Anyhow, I think we are 2 years late with that task.
It all depends on how the likes of Anderson, Cleverley, Powell and Tunnicliffe progress. Maybe we have to replace Scholes and Giggs next summer. Maybe we don't.
Hence my comment about Sir Alex' plans for the younger players.
You need to admit that this policy (ei waiting for youngster steeping in ) is a massive gamble. I hope their talent will explode and we will be sorted in CM. If something goes wrong we will pay extra for any CM coming in.
Absolutely a gamble, but maybe a gamble worth taking.
The worst that can happen is that it fails, and we have to recruit new midfielders in a year or two.
Every year you can name a group of players who if we are extremely lucky would paper over the cracks and do a really good job. Go to any Liverpool forum and you'll see that if every single eventuality turns out favourably they will be title contenders... Again. I could double my life savings by putting it all on red, it doesn't mean it's an intelligent gamble.
In my opinion we were lucky with central midfield last season; Carrick had his best and by far most consistent season to date and Scholes came out of retirement playing unbelievably. It still wasn't enough and I dread to think of our position if Carrick suffers a serious injury early September.
The fact is for the last few seasons we should have shelled out for a quality central midfielder. It's a shame that in the last 3 seasons we have only won one trophy, whilst 2 titles have been decided against us by a grand total of 1 point and goal difference. Most fans I spoke to thought Fergie made a mistake not strengthening CM in 2009, which became a bigger mistake in 2010 and an even bigger one last season. Ignoring it again this year would be verging on ridiculous.
Injuries and illness of Anderson, Cleverley and Fletcher was the big factors.
Lucky?? Anderson, Fletcher, Cleverley all sustaining long-term injuries. Pogba leaving who I'm sure was planned for quite a few appearances if not for his impending departure. Ridiculous to say we were lucky, like feck we were.Very good post mate.
Rumours surfacing we're after a highly rated African kid with dual Indian nationality called Wegot Naykash.
There is of course that lad who was in the Morocco under 21 squad...Fukal Monet I think he was called.
Failing those our back up is from Russia. Heard great things about Lakov Spendin.
There is of course that lad who was in the Morocco under 21 squad...Fukal Monet I think he was called.
Failing those our back up is from Russia. Heard great things about Lakov Spendin.
Or the Kazakh homeless guy: Fukthumid Feeld
With Kagawa signed for a fee that looks reasonable and possibly RVP at -£15m looks like we are getting value this window.
-£15 mil? Is that where Arse actually pay us to take RVP off their hands?
Liverpoolnomics. We sold Beckham for £26m in 2003 and will replace him with van Persie for £11m which means van Persie is -£15m.
Fergie will be warming up the tonsils for this soon most likely.
Maybe, but I don't recall him being this open with his wish to bring in new players before, the way he was with Moura and is being with RVP. It's going to be a bit hard to trot out the "Happy with the squad" line when you've openly tried very hard to bring in two more players for big money.
Hasn't helped has it? Its also baffling why he is suddenly open about transfers unless its just for the fans benefit i.e "we are trying" I thought having an LB sorted out by now would have been paramount.
Just don't get that LB buying logic Ramshock. We have needed a CM for years, we still haven't bought one. Yet we have Evra, Fabio and this youth player everyone is wanking over and some think signing a LB would be of more importance!
Evra will play nearly every game next season, whether Fabio goes on loan or not. It is quite clear Evra doesn't even have to play well to keep his place. If he gets injured i have absolutely no doubt Jonny Evans will fill in at LB for as long as is necessary.
In contrast we have absolutely no cover whatsoever for Carrick's role, not even someone who could be deemed remotely effective in that role. Absolutely no-one in the whole squad as it stands. If he is injured who will play that role? Yet we don't seem to be even looking at anyone for any position in CM, never mind Carrick's!
So for me i don't even know why we would bother signing a LB at all, never mind instead of a CM. Evra will play on and when he can play no more, Fabio or this young kid will take over or we will buy someone then.
Fabio has gone on loan, and the youth prospect you're talking about, Fryers I assume, is out of contract and looked all but set to be signing for Spurs last time anyone heard.
We very much need a LB.
We very much need a LB.
I assume he means Blackett; Fryers has gone to Spurs.
And we do need some depth at left-back, however frustrating the midfield is.
And we do need some depth at left-back, however frustrating the midfield is.
Thanks Antisocial, if blackett is the very highly rated youngster from our youth then it is him i make reference to.
But to both of you, i have laid out what i am 99% sure will happen next season regarding Evra. So why again are we buying a LB? To not play him like we didn't play Fabio? Or to drop the seemingly undroppable Evra, irrespective of his form? If it's the latter then fine, but i doubt that would be the case. In any regard no LB worth buying is going to come and sit on the bench for the vast majority of next season imo. Unless it's a youngster, which we already have, or someone not as good as Evra which is completely pointless.
There is no way Evra will not play as first choice LB next season.
There is little evidence he won't play almost every game, as he has the past few seasons.
Jonny Evans will provide the cover at LB.
Which of those likely assumptions don't you agree with? If you do agree with them, then why on earth would we need to prioritise LB more than say Carrick's role?
We were not lucky generally of course. But you would surely have to admit that without Carrick staying fit and playing consistently very well for pretty much the whole season after the others were already injured, we would have been completely screwed.
That would have to be considered a bit fortunate even if we were unlucky in other respects. Anderson being injured for the majority of the season is hardly a shock, and Fletcher's problems were entirely predictable considering we knew about his condition at the end of the season before.
So only Cleverley's injury could be considered completely unexpected. We were poorly prepared in midfield that season, especially having seen Scholes retire and Hargreaves released.
So no need to sound too indignant or shocked about Finneh's perfectly reasonable assertions, in what i personally consider to be a fair and accurate post.
With one player (Fabio) down compared with last season, that leaves us quite short of cover at the back, even more so when you consider we seem to have an injury crisis there every season. Heck, even now it seems we're down to four defenders for the start of the season.
Let me fly this really out there idea past you, but have you considered that Evra may be undroppable, regardless of form, because we're short at LB?
Mad idea I know.
Makes you wonder then why bother sending Fabio on loan, only to buy a LB. Just give him some fecking games, then we won't need to buy a LB. fecking bizarre logic if you ask me.
Then why loan out our only other LB? If you want mad ideas get your head around that one! Short at LB, so we loan out the only other one we have, so we can buy another one and not play him! Brilliant!
Meanwhile back at the ranch we have no fecking cover whatsoever for Carrick, whose vital defensive contribution far outweighs anything our current LB provides in that department. Yet we dont buy any cover for his position for the second season running, leaving us with absolutely no other effective or even remotely viable option there should he ever be injured!
So sorry mate, no logic on this earth can convince me that we are in more need of another LB, than we are a CM.
CM remains the weakest area of the team by far, it's all ifs and maybe's.
Jesus, its not hard to work out, Fabio doesn't have enough experience to fully deputise for Evra, so he's been sent on loan to get it.
Then buy someone in with a bit of experience and they share the role with Evra. In a couple of years when Evra moves on we then have 2 experienced LB's.... you're just assuming we'll buy someone and not play them.
I'm not saying we don't need a CM, we do, but we also need a LB.
Thats a bit weird. I though it was already done but nothing official yet. I wonder who is he training with? Surely he isnt doing a pre-season on his own.
Fingers crossed he jumped the gun walking away from the biggest club in the world, the little shit!
I can see why it was a problem giving Fabio many games in an inexperienced back back as it was at times last season. He was also injured part of the time. Sending him out on loan isn't a bad idea in itself, but if it means we'll somehow sort ourselves out with what we've got, it's dreadful.
Im making assumptions? Why would you think Fabio has to 'fully deputise' a guy who never gets injured or dropped? He should be given a couple of games here and there to get experience as Rafael was. first under Nev and then along with O'shea.
Inexperience is hardly a reasonable excuse to not play someone at a club that is renowned for giving young players a chance. Fabio is as experienced as Rafael was when Nev was No 1.
Rafael was rasher and far less disciplined than Fabio is, yet he still got enough games to 'fully deputise' the RB position. The reason Fabio is going on loan is because Evra is not going to be dropped, and that is exactly why i very much doubt we will buy a LB. As i suggested Evans will fill in.
SAF is hardly adverse to playing people out of position to fill in gaps when necessary. What i find bizarre is that so many of you apply the same logic to buying an LB to cover the undroppable Evra, that we have repeatedly ignored for years regarding CM.
You may be right and i may be completely off the mark, but i just cannot fathom how LB can possibly trump CM myself Eyepopper. For me it is all about priorities and LB is not the top priority imo.
Honestly Amir, hand on heart, do you think we are going to go out and buy a LB who will mostly sit on the bench this season, and then be content to compete for a back up spot to Evra after Fabio's loan finishes?
Or that we will go out and buy a quality LB capable of ousting Evra from first choice?
Or my scenario: We will keep playing Evra, and should anything happen to him, then SAF will use Evans to fill that gap until Evra can come back in?
Hmmm, i know which scenario i deem most likely.