I have always advocated for women’s rights and safety on a personal front especially given the poor record in my country and general societal gender imbalance. However aren’t people jumping the gun here? Redemption and second chances are a real thing as is knowing the complete picture. On face value it gives out a bad message and the club should stand for the right values but I’d like to go beyond face value before demonising the football club I love.
What's the point? Warning: Post contains a long ramble
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Its funny to call anyone still a United fan a glory hunter. The term was widely used and applicable in the 2000s and is not relevant anymore.
Hear hear
Why is this moving with the times? Why is the only way forward that every team becomes state owned? Why does football have to seemingly benefit a small group of rich people and everyone else who watches becomes nothing more than a passive consumer?
It's still applicable... They signed up on the back of massive success, shame keeps them here but there outraged at the thought of not being #1 and want all the fancy big name transfers
I like this post
Interesting response. I would argue that whilst yeah, things like racism and homophobia are less prelavent on the terraces, the sport itself still has huge issues. There still isn't any openly gay footballers in the Premier League and racism is still extremely common online. How many black managers are there? What's funny (well I say funny, it's not at all) is that as the sport has increasingly shed its more local working class routes, those wider cultural issues remain and if anything have got worse. I know ex hooligans who have reformed that are absolutely appalled at the prospect of that player coming back. You don't hit women is a pretty basic line for many.
United's response to this incident (and Arsenal's to a lesser extent with their player) have made me think that we could easily see another Crewe type scandal develop. Teams are obsessed with PR and will probably gladly cover anything up to make themselves look better.
It's very easy to mix glory hunting fans with passionate but idiotic fans. The former are all City fans now and will be Arsenal fans next year if they win the league. Anyone who's struck through Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Ole and more importantly that snake oil salesman Rangnick putting up with a decade of failure and drab football and still shouting for a solution belongs in the latter category.
While I miss many aspects of living in the UK I don't miss the gutter press. Consequently I have not been inundated with the stories about a certain player's indiscretion.
I am a strong supporter of women's rights but on the other hand I do believe that it is possible to repent and change the course of one's life.
I seem to remember a story about an invitation to cast a first stone!
To err is human - to forgive divine.
I am a strong supporter of women's rights but on the other hand I do believe that it is possible to repent and change the course of one's life.
I seem to remember a story about an invitation to cast a first stone!
To err is human - to forgive divine.
I agree with alot of what the op says. For me modern football is very bleak. I suppose it always had its issues but recently... I think also (in my case anyway) as I've gotten older I'm less interested in turning a blind eye to all the rot. The buying of the club in order to sit on top of it to milk it dry and that was legally fine and noone who cared about it could essentially do anything that was a huge blow.
Nowadays I shake my head at what professional football has become. And I still see so many people talking about the club's 'values'. And how this or that goes against those values. I just think that's so naive. Do they not see what they're watching?
I've a different view on the Greenwood issue to some also. We have to accept all the rot, the absolute vileness of the various entities that own and run the sport but it's this guy we should hang, draw and quarter? Look I totally understand that that issue is beyond complicated and very messy and sad.
Have a nice day everyone.
Nowadays I shake my head at what professional football has become. And I still see so many people talking about the club's 'values'. And how this or that goes against those values. I just think that's so naive. Do they not see what they're watching?
I've a different view on the Greenwood issue to some also. We have to accept all the rot, the absolute vileness of the various entities that own and run the sport but it's this guy we should hang, draw and quarter? Look I totally understand that that issue is beyond complicated and very messy and sad.
Have a nice day everyone.
I feel similar to the OP but I also think they're very normal feelings as you get older. I'd be curious to hear if fans from the 70s/80s had similar feelings when the Premier League and Sky money started up. I can imagine non United fans in particular feeling pretty disillusioned at all the money involved back then as well.
For kids watching today, they'll talk about this period as the glory days 20 years from now. It's sad, but football (and probably sport in general) will always be moving away from what made your generation fall in love with the game.
For kids watching today, they'll talk about this period as the glory days 20 years from now. It's sad, but football (and probably sport in general) will always be moving away from what made your generation fall in love with the game.
Let's get that super league going
This is interesting, in that it's the opposite for me. As I've gotten older, and especially during the period of 2019 to now, as I've had a lot more going on in my life and more stuff that I actually need to care about, I've become less interested in the stuff that goes on outside of the 90 minutes on the field, or 'the rot' as you put it. In my younger years I would obsess over all the goings on at the club, the players, both on and off the field, which is reflected in the very strong feelings I had about certain things, like for example how vehemently I was against state ownership of United years ago. In the present day, for me its become a form of entertainment and escapism where I can lose myself in what's going on on the field without being burdened by anything else. I just want entertaining football (Hopefully with winning attached) to watch, and I'm good with that. Hence my stance on the ownership issue has changed and if we are to be state owned then so be it. I'm not going to celebrate them like the newcastle fans or try to defend their culture and practices or pretend that they're some paragon of virtue, but it won't change my enjoyment of the football or the way I feel about United either.
The stoneworker issue is more complicated. From the beginning I've said that I don't want him back, and that has not changed. If the club found some way to can him I believe that would be best for all parties. If they do bring him back, unlike some of the other posts in here, that won't drive me to stop supporting the club. It will be very difficult to actively cheer him on or celebrate when he scores a goal. Perhaps I'll just be glad that the team has scored or something.
I understand the sentiment but couple of points.
1) For all the hyperbole and overblown sentiment, football is only a game. It's supposed to be fun. You said you missed going to games because of the social aspect...well go to games then and enjoy it for what it is! I used to live and breathe United. Now I still follow closely but I'm not as emotionally invested. I watch the game and don't get too caught up in much else. There ARE far more important things in life. I've been lucky, I've seen United win everything as a match-going fan...but what I realised is I don't necessarily enjoy it more or less relative to where we are in the table. When we won every week relentlessly I actually got bored at times. Plus, the dropped points hit harder. Now the games are much closer, there's highs, there's lows, there's new dawns, false dawns, good performances, horrible performances, new players, new managers...and you really do come to realise (sorry for the cliche) that it's the journey, not the destination, that's the real joy of it.
2) United don't need oil money to compete. We only need to be able to compete under own our steam. We haven't been able to do that under Glazer ownership for various reasons. My view is that we're effectively two billion in credit before we can be labeled as some kind of oil team i.e. we'd need someone to artificially pump-in the two billion the Glazers have cost the club. Yeah, football sold its soul ages ago...nothing we can do about that though. Doesn't mean you can't go to OT, have a few pints with mates, enjoy the game, get a takeaway and settle in for MotD if that's what you enjoy doing.
How you all kept supporting United after knowing about Best and Giggs? Just curious to know.
Just curious to know.
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Well said.
You get to decide if you support Qatari (PSG, United, Barca, whoever....), Saudis, Amazon, Microsoft or RedBull. Location don't really matter as they can interchange players and staff.
RedBull is already pretty obviously doing that, so your Coca Cola comparison is actually close to reality already.
I'm a bit with OP on these whole ownership discussions. Would I really be all that excited to see a state taking over this club so we can outspend city and buy a few titles between us and them the next few years?
Exactly, I don’t think you can call fans glory hunters when in reality we haven’t been properly successful for 10 years now. Given our resources anyway.
Yes, we are. It's not hard to be.
When I was growing up, my dad's generation was saying the game is dead when the Premier League happened, when Keane cost £3.75m, when they started letting non league winners into the Champions League. He didn't understand my mobile phone and constantly complained about prices going up. My music wasn't as good as the music in his day. I loved watching football though.
Now, people say the game will be dead if another league forms, when Caicedo costs over £100m, when the Saudis start appearing in the Champions League. I don't understand Tic Toc, prices are stupid and I have no idea what my kids are listening too as it most certainly is not as good as the music I listened and still listen too. My kids love watching football though.
If the game is dying then its been dying for a long time and will continue to die in the exact same way it's been dying for decades. It will just one day reach a logical conclusion that will only be understood by that particular generation who will be quite happy thinking it's alive and well.
Now, people say the game will be dead if another league forms, when Caicedo costs over £100m, when the Saudis start appearing in the Champions League. I don't understand Tic Toc, prices are stupid and I have no idea what my kids are listening too as it most certainly is not as good as the music I listened and still listen too. My kids love watching football though.
If the game is dying then its been dying for a long time and will continue to die in the exact same way it's been dying for decades. It will just one day reach a logical conclusion that will only be understood by that particular generation who will be quite happy thinking it's alive and well.
Yeah, but no - not for a fan, it isn't. So this line of reasoning misses the entirety of the point, which is that if we just view the football club as a business, then it becomes completely irrelevant. What do I care if some business in another country makes money or not? I couldn't care less. The reality is that MUFC is only able to function on business terms because hundreds of millions of people around the world do NOT think of it as a business, but as something that has significant meaning to them on a personal level. Without the emotion, there is no business. Hence, the emotion matters crucially - also in a business sense.
Not that I disagree that United has to evolve in order to continue to thrive in a changing football world. It just isn't that simple - to stay successful you also have to nurture and preserve the basic sense of attachment people feel for the club. And while there are things that just can't be helped (such as the cost of transfers), there are other things that can (such as the impending MG decision, or the choice of ownership).
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Newcastle fans cheering on their saudi owners was the last straw for me. To be clear, I know most fans would act the same way. And that's exactly why I'm sick of it all. The sport is rancid from top to bottom. Needs nuking and starting again.
Written superbly
There's truth in this no doubt. But also sometimes we have to recognise the creeping effect of loss of rights and standards over time. Sometimes the next generation (understandably) won't realise how their expectations have been lowered. And I think that goes for football also. Or I'm just an old man shaking my fist at the wind. It's difficult to be certain.
Heh. You're probably right. Had an interesting evening talking to some of my son's 14-15 year old friends last night. Most of them supported United, not one of them gave even the tiniest feck about Qatari ownership. They all wanted it to happen. They were also completely unanimous about wanting a certain striker integrated back into the squad; "so long as he's still good"
People love a good melodrama, my lord.
It’s fecking horrible and the game I love is dying on its arse with some people egging it on.
Football is NOT a business and people shouldn’t see it as such.
Football is NOT a business and people shouldn’t see it as such.
I don't think that many will turn their backs on the club over this, many might be disgusted and angry, but only for a short while and I completely understand this. But because the subject is so personal for me, because I've lived in it, I simply won't be able to support a club that makes this decision.
I think there is defiantly an element of this.
For me i`m not actually that fussed about the morality stuff...I just don`t feel as invested as I used to.
I feel like the amount of money in the game has spiraled to ridiculous levels though and not sure if it`s just me, but it simply doesn`t seem as entertaining as it used to be.
One of my biggest issues is that it`s almost a non contact sport now, I understand why it has changed, but I certainly preferred it when it was a lot more tough, it`s just my preference I guess.
You throw in what City have done (and will seemingly get away with it) and it makes it even worse
In ecology there's a phenomenon called shifting baseline syndrome which is basically that as we've continually hammered biodiversity and the natural environment over the last 150 years or so, each successive generation has grow up with an increasingly skewed impression of what "normal" looks like. Someone transported to modern rural England from 50 or 100 years ago would be shocked by the relative lack of bird and insect life which many of us take for granted.
Same thing here I think. I'm not old enough to have followed football before the Premier League so football being full of money and celebrity is par for the course for me, but I was nearly a teenager when Chelsea got taken over and I remember how much of a paradigm shift that was, and obviously City, PSG, Newcastle, etc. all feels crazy to me.
Sad to think that there's a generation growing up who will see all that as being totally normal.
I suppose it depends on your individual outlook on things like this. But my issue, beyond the moral one, is that of standards that the club wishes to uphold. Where do we draw the line on 'second chances'?
And this isn't a second chance. Let's just looks at what he has been upto already in his very short career...
- This is a bit 'old man shouting at clouds' stuff, but he first appears in a creepy video where he's trying it on with his girlfriend in the back of a car and talking about 'daddies d*ck'. I know it's teenage lad stuff, but it's not something you see 90% of footballers doing and was weirdly videoed too. At the time I laughed it off, but in current context it feels a bit more sinister/odd behaviour.
- Removed from the England squad for bad behaviour. Not sure exactly what happened, but not a good look for a young player.
- Caught taking laughing gas.
- Police issued him with a number of warnings following him flouting lockdown rules and holding parties. This was apparently reported to the club on numerous occasions.
- Then we have the current abuse/rape stuff.
So why ETH or anybody at the club wants to overlook all of this is beyond me. He is running rampant and makes Ravel Morrison look a saint in comparison, yet look how the latter was handled by SAF and the club when we actually had standards and principles.
I completely get that and you are probably right. Sorry to hear that you have been affected by this stuff personally - I just think it is beyond a joke that people in your position are potentially being put in this position. I obviously haven't experienced anything like this personally, but even I am being pushed to my limits over it for a number of reasons. And I reckon many others too. Even just the famale supporters, staff, players must be in similar turmoil over it. Honestly it is one of the most stupid business decisions I've heard of if it goes ahead.
But it is surely "glory hunting" if you want Qatar to come in and spend a shitload of money, by the name you're hunting for glory over everything else.
Probably because the clip came with zero context or provenance. I don't understand how people are drawing a conclusion based on a very small amount of untested evidence, when the police/CPS, people connected to the case and the club itself, all of whom have access to the full picture all seem to have come to the conclusion that Mason hasn't actually done anything wrong, certainly not at the legal level.
What makes people with zero access to any of the other evidence think they know better?
Do you want the change of ownership if yes Why what's the issue with Glazers .
I agree. If he comes back and Qatar take over, i'm out.
Since i discovered disc golf, i kind of enjoy watching that more anyway.
Since i discovered disc golf, i kind of enjoy watching that more anyway.
Without talking about specific cases given forum rules, key witnesses withdrawing can happen for all sorts of reasons. It doesn’t mean nothing ever happened, and in abuse cases can mean they are still under the influence of their abuser.
Similarly the CPS/Police might decide they don’t have enough evidence to pursue a successful prosecution, especially if key witnesses have withdrawn, and therefore it isn’t a good use of resources. That is not the same as them concluding nothing bad happened.
Similarly the CPS/Police might decide they don’t have enough evidence to pursue a successful prosecution, especially if key witnesses have withdrawn, and therefore it isn’t a good use of resources. That is not the same as them concluding nothing bad happened.
You're conveniently forgetting there was also mention of new evidence (presumably exculpatory) when the CPS withdrew.
Are you suggesting that despite thorough investigation by the police/CPS and also the club, with access to all the evidence and witnesses, that somehow they have all got their conclusion wrong, and the baying internet mob with access to nothing but a short, untested audio clip and a photo of some cuts/bruises is right?
By that definition, a glory hunter will mean anyone who wants glory for the club but that's not quite right. A glory hunter is someone who:
- has no affiliation to the club they support
- only do it because they link the club's success an extension of their ego
- will immediately jump ship to a more successful club if the tide turns
I (as a United fan) watched that game where Wiltord scored against us to seal Arsenal's title with a die hard Arsenal fan (literally everything he had was Arsenal related). A few years later, he shifted to Chelsea and he's now a die hard City fan apparently. They have a great history with the legendary Trautmann and all of course which is why he follows them.
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Love Jomezpro channel!
It's getting a bit much with every hot topic but I'm starting to find it amusing.