We can target anyone but they have to be realistic. Thiago was just speculation and a non-starter anyway. Khedeira would choose Moyes over Real and Ancelotti?
What will it take to sack moyes?
- Thread starter bosnian_red
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We can target anyone but they have to be realistic. Thiago was just speculation and a non-starter anyway. Khedeira would choose Moyes over Real and Ancelotti?
No doubt having Woodward in charge wasn't ideal, but it was Moyes targets and indecision that were the problem after finding out he was getting the united job in april it seems he did absolutely no work on identifying players to sign for 3 months, evidenced by the fact we didn't make our first bid for a player until early July (i think the first combined bid for baines & Mop Top).
So after wasting all the time before the transfer window opened when we have agreed deals in the past april/may/june, he proceeded to waste the whole of july and august chasing Fabregas which was fanciful at best and trying to get everton to sell baines and fellaini for £14m a piece like that was going to happen, he managed everton and he didnt know what they valued these players at?
So in the last week or two of august after fecking about for the almost 5 months there were rumours we started scatter gun bidding for Herrera,De Rossi,Khedira,Coentrao and god knows who else, we end up signing the player we made a bid for in early july for twice the price we initially valued him at.
This was a shambles and in my opinion mostly Moyes fault, the biggest opportunity of his career you would have hoped he would have been better prepared to hit the ground running, what he was thinking we will never know, that disaster of a transfer window could yet cost him his job.
Now we know why he is called dithering dave.
You are saying Thiago and his father are liars (to put it bluntly) but the media are more truthful. That's fine, and it could be the case, I don't know however I do think the media could have got it wrong.
According to Rudi Garcia, De Rossi wanted to leave but agreed a date with Roma letting them know he wouldn't leave once the season had started. Moyes was hesitant and waited until the season started until he bid:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jan/03/daniele-derossi-roma-suicide-manchester-united
Perhaps I am being harsh blaming Moyes, he might have needed time to scout De Rossi, to learn more about who he was. It was probably a good thing though, Moyes has had a lot of bad luck this season and I don't think his best central midfielder committing suicide would have helped matters.
De Rossi made a pledge to Roma, he won't leave once the season has started because they won't have time to find a strong replacement but he will leave beforehand.
What does Moyes do?
A) Put his bid in before the season starts.
B) Dither away.
He was probably waiting for the scout reports to come to his iPad. Ferguson's methods can't have been that bad:
Scout uses a phone: "Hey Fergie, this De Rossi fella looks pretty good".
Ferguson: "Ahh, I know him. He's a fine player, I'll come out and watch him".
Scout sitting in Rome: "Somehow I need to get a message back to Moyes about this De Rossi fella, hope the scouting networks are up soon and then I can upload my 20 reports."
Moyes dithering: "..."
(Yes it's an exaggeration, it's a massive exaggeration however point is, we should have pounced).
I think Khedira badly wanted out of Madrid and had we not made such a desperate last minute attempt to get him he would have moved yes. He came out very publicly about being made a scapegoat at Madrid.
http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1582945/spanish-media-made-scapegoat-real-madrid?cc=5739
I agree with you it was shambolic. Moyes has 1 summer to get it right so he and Woodward should already have most of the legwork done on targets and transfer funds etc. I pray they have anyway.
Are you knew to the world of football agents? You know that Bayern claimed they turned down 100m for Ribery from Madrid, do you believe them? Do you believe every player when he says the club he joins was always his first choice or it's his "dream" to play for them? Also those De Rossi comments were later found out to be false (the ones about suicide).
Thiago said no approach from Manchester. He could have easily said, he wanted to join Bayern and not Manchester. I made quite clear in my previous post it is possible he was lying so I'm not quite sure what the problem is here. I also stated the media could have got it wrong, although as you infer, they might be more truthful than Thiago. That said, I do think the media get things wrong and not all the rumours come to fruition. You are free to your opinion however and I respect that.
What about Rudi Garcia's comments then, are you stating these are false?
Furthermore, could you provide a source that states the suicide comments were false. I'm unable to as I search, I'm sure it exists I just wanted to verify that's all.
You seem to suggest De Rossi wanting to leave Roma was merely a rumour. That means the guardian falsely printed quotes. Or were you wrong?
I'm not going to search through pages of tabloid links on google to find the info but it was posted on here at the time the quotes came out. If I recall he said in January he would have killed himself had he left Roma this season because at the time they were top of the league and on an amazing run with the best defence in Europe etc.
The Guardian have posted quotes given to another paper and I'm not saying they're false just that De Rossi has supposedly been on the move from Roma for the past 5 years and personally I find it hard to believe that had he actually been available for 12m no other major club around europe wouldn't have snapped him up.
No doubt everything that happened last summer seemed to be done in a manner which suggested we had all the time in the world, when it should have been our most urgent window in years to get the players we needed in asap and settled in time for pre season.
If he gets the chance which in still not convinced will be the case, then yes lets hope he does a bit of work this summer instead of procrastinating on targets and lets not even mention 6 week holidays, if he does have one booked we should tell him not to bother hurrying back.
Yes, the Guardian made clear in the very article I posted the comments might have been in relation to Roma and their performance. The comments were therefore made and there is not anything incorrect in that article. If you make a claim that they are false then you must back it up, you made a claim De Rossi's transfer was only a rumour and I disputed that with an article + quotes.
You are suggesting here that the Guardian made up what Rudi Garcia said if you don't accept them as truth, which is a serious accusation. I don't think they would do that.
I'll be honest and I don't mean any disrespect but I think Rudi Garcia didn't lie about United putting in a bid too late or about his deal with De Rossi. I also don't think De Rossi lied that he wanted to leave because he wasn't in a good place. I also don't think the Guardian posted false quotes here. I could be wrong however.
I get the impression you seem to be going to some lengths to defend Moyes.
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It very well could cost him. Had he been more decisive and got hold of De Rossi and Strootman we would have got top four. If he had moved for Coentrao earlier or gone for Baines instead of Fellaini, he could have had a good season.
Indecision however is dangerous in a leader.
I never claimed no comments existed, I said the ones about him committing suicide if he joined United were false. He was talking about had he left Roma that season because they were on the way to winning a league title and arguably performing better than any other team in europe. The comments are regularly used in a context to slate Moyes which is very dishonest.
What I have stated is that the Guardian have taken quotes from another paper who printed it removing them from liability if they're false since they're simply reporting what the stories are on the continent. They haven't thrown their reputaion behind the authenticity of the quotes.
There's a possibility that United made a late move for De Rossi but I find it hard to believe that had he been so easily available for only 12m that no other club would have been interested. You really think PSG/Monaco or Russian clubs wouldn't have snapped him up had he been available? Also the story of him being available only surfaced after the window had closed, if De Rossi was really available what was his agent doing exactly? Why wasn't he being touted all around Europe?
Maybe the truth is somewhere in between and he was available but the price was much more than 12m. Considering his age + wages and transfer fee you could see why it would put plenty of clubs off if Roma wanted 20m+ for him.
For the record I want Moyes out of United and have very little faith he will do anything but set us back. However there's already a million rods to beat Moyes with we don't need to believe everything that get's printed no matter how much it suits us.
Moyes, out?
I can see what you're getting at here, but you can also attack it from the other angle. The vast majority of the summer was spent going after two midfield targets, one of which had successfully played under him at his previous club so no scouting needed, the other had unquestionably been one of the best midfielders in the league since he was a teenager so another safe bet. It was about as risk free as you could get in that viewing, added to a little naiveté in apparently believing that Fabregas would push for the move.
Bet it involves Richard Keys and a pack of Bic disposables.
Not really! The focus will be just on Moyes how he disappointed
everyone. Landing the blame on Fergie is neither here nor there. Moyes is not a child and should know how it is important not to mess up like he did.
He should have listened rather than letting go of the back room staff.
Just had this terrible nightmare.
After winning title no. 20 by 11pts, Sir Alex announced his retirement but instead of appointing a quality manager to succeed him, he just gave the job to that David Moyes from Everton. First thing he did was to get rid of the backroom staff and sign his favourite long ball player for £27m and put him in midfield!! But he signed nobody else even though we needed a few new players to replace some of our squad. Then he took us down to 7th in record time, losing at home to average teams and home and away to our 2 biggest rivals and out of all the cups. And with virtually no hope of the Champions League place he even tried to blame the players for our poor season! Meanwhile, City won one cup, Arsenal go to the FA Cup final, Liverpool were top of the league 20 pts ahead of us and Everton went up to 4th playing much more attractive football than we did all season!!
But at least it was all a dream. Now, what did I miss?
After winning title no. 20 by 11pts, Sir Alex announced his retirement but instead of appointing a quality manager to succeed him, he just gave the job to that David Moyes from Everton. First thing he did was to get rid of the backroom staff and sign his favourite long ball player for £27m and put him in midfield!! But he signed nobody else even though we needed a few new players to replace some of our squad. Then he took us down to 7th in record time, losing at home to average teams and home and away to our 2 biggest rivals and out of all the cups. And with virtually no hope of the Champions League place he even tried to blame the players for our poor season! Meanwhile, City won one cup, Arsenal go to the FA Cup final, Liverpool were top of the league 20 pts ahead of us and Everton went up to 4th playing much more attractive football than we did all season!!
But at least it was all a dream. Now, what did I miss?
The article stated clearly "It was unclear whether De Rossi was commenting on United's struggles this season or expressing relief that he was part of a renaissance at Roma".
The article made clear the comments very well might have been in relation to Roma therefore they were not used out of context. You also acknowledge here he was thinking strongly about leaving otherwise he would not have made the comments about how he would have felt had he left Roma.
Which is it? Earlier in the post you acknowledged that De Rossi made comments that he would have regretted leaving Roma but now you claim he wasn't available.
Rudi Garcia said (unless a publication has falsely printed his words) that De Rossi wanted to leave and so he made a deal that it must be before the season started. Then he said United bid once the season had started. De Rossi himself (which you acknowledge) came out and said he would have regretted leaving Roma with how well they have played this season suggesting he wanted to leave in the summer. He even referenced Manchester supporting Rudi's version of events.
From everything I have read it seems far more probable United bid for De Rossi too late and so Moyes was not decisive. You are disputing this because you find it hard to believe other clubs didn't snap him up, well perhaps he didn't want to leave for Russian clubs or France. He referenced Manchester in his comment suggesting that's where he wanted to go. Clearly he wanted first team football and out of the most elite clubs, United's was the likeliest where he would get first team football.
You also said "We don't need to believe everything that gets printed" however earlier you were telling me Thiago and his agent were lying however the media were telling the truth when I merely suggested the media could have been wrong (as they have so many times before). In this case, what was printed was Rudi Garcia's words. His words are more accurate than the media merely stating United will sign Thiago.
I like your book better.
Bobby-That made me laugh out loud. Well done.
What about De Rossi? I'm sure you've read the article I posted where Rudi Garcia said De Rossi wanted to leave but United's indecision led to a bid being made too late, once the season was already under way and De Rossi had given his word he won't leave once the season has started because of the difficulty in finding a replacement.
This suggests, according to Rudi Garcia anyway, De Rossi was also a target who wanted to join but Moyes was indecisive.
Regarding Fabregas, it wasn't risk free if he wouldn't move and after Thiago moved I think it was fair to assume Cesc would be staying.
one more season like this and he'll be done i believe.
I agree about the indecision, De Rossi was obviously a backup option and Moyes' dithering (I know this word is overused, but it's fairly perfect for Moyes) about elsewhere prevented it.
I'd also agree it was likelier Fabragas stayed rather than left after Thiago went to Bayern (sigh), but I wouldn't say it was bold or positive for us to continue the pursuit, I'd say it was thick.
I said the comments are regularly used out of context to slate Moyes which is true. Just google De Rossi suicide and you'll see every tabloid and online football site with them as a headline, most of them making no mention of the possibility that he was referring to the current form of his Roma side just using them as a way to pile more pressure and humiliation on Moyes.
De Rossi has been rumoured to have been on his way out of Roma for as long as I can remember and regularly linked with City/Chelsea amongst other clubs. It wouldn't have been the first time he and the club had fallen or he'd thought about leaving: https://metro.co.uk/2012/12/06/roma...ele-de-rossi-to-join-manchester-city-3305107/ But yet nothing materialised. So was he available then or not?
Do you have any evidence to back up your original claim he was available for 12m? This seems like pure speculation.
Maybe he didn't want to leave for Russian/French clubs although I doubt it since they could offer him a pay increase and regular champions league football but even if that was the case his agent would have used the supposed interest from these clubs to get him a better deal elsewhere. Just like how Fabregas used United and just how Kroos is currently using United. At the very least it would have raised awareness to the fact he was available and willing to move which came as news to me.
De Rossi would not struggle to get onto Monaco/PSG/Chelsea or any midfield in Russia.
I believe in United being in contact with Thiago because it was being reported by everyone in England and Spain so it seems unlikely they all made it up. Unless of course you're claiming they all printed false stories which is a serious accusation so I've heard.
ThanksI like your book better.
Seriously though, if any one of us is gutted (am sure everyone is) about how our club has been ruined (the reputation, not to mention our loss etc) I bet SAF is 100 times more gutted (than any of us) having spent 27 years building united into a massive club like no club can compare (our history is important but the 27 years under his reign is landmark).
Seriously if he changes things around in one season it's a huge accomplishment but it won't happen. Why? He has to go through a brain replacement to achieve that if you ask me. And it's quite impossible if he's going through this kind of procedure. So, no can't foresee it is good to give him one more season.
David Moyes = Dave Sexton circa 2014.
I blame him for Fabregas
1. He knows how much we have to spend, and by virtue of 10 years of experience managing top level football, he should know how likely our bids will be entertained (but he failed even in gauging Fellaini and Baines, his old club)
2. I don't believe woodward is a football man, a player valuation should be set by the Manager as he is the one who's the football guy. Ideally Moyes and Ed should have a meeting, Moyes should give some valuation, and ed to decide whether it's an acceptable valuation, and Ed would then proceed to haggle with a "min-max" value in his mind (bar a few adjustment).
3. Moyes is not new, as a manager of a football club, he should have his own list of players after 10+ years, Mourinho have them, and almost all managers have a shortlist they can refer to somehow. It's baffling that the best moyes can come up with is Baines and Fellaini, he reeks FM and it's clear to me he haven't done his scouting all this time.
Even us fans have an idea of the up and coming players (mangala, strootman, De Rossi, etc) and we're only reading papers.
Thanks
Seriously though, if any one of us is gutted (am sure everyone is) about how our club has been ruined (the reputation, not to mention our loss etc) I bet SAF is 100 times more gutted (than any of us) having spent 27 years building united into a massive club like no club can compare (our history is important but the 27 years under his reign is landmark).
The $64 question in all of this is-what is Fergie thinking? He must be so disappointed-and I wonder how he feels about the players as well as Moyes. Even this biggest Moyes skeptic could not have imagined the level to which we've sunk. Just painful to watch.
I'm strictly in the "he'll never go in the summer" camp, but there's no way he'll get a full season like this one.
If we're still scuffling in 6/7th by Chrimbo he'll be out.
I don't think the owners'll risk another year out of the top 4 by giving him a chance until Christmas. Getting a transitional manager in at the New Year, because that's all we could get halfway through the season, would make it that much harder (and need that much more £ in transfers) to get CL football for the following year, I think that's the angle they'll be looking at this from.
I don't get where all this confidence of him getting the boot the coming Christmas, if things are the same, comes from. He will have all the excuses in the world from the world cup to poor pre-season and the europa league (maybe) to contend with. He will milk it all and if this season is anything to go by, the board will lap it all up!
It's surprising to see the number of wums on the caf... I thought Manchester United fans were proud and intelligent supporters. It is sadly not the case.
#
transitional managers tend to be a poisoned chalice.
a) they tend to be not very good. I mean we're talking of people who are ready to take jobs as temps because others cant/wont take it at that time of year.
b) if they overachieve (ex in our case they take the club from 7th place to lets say 5th place with just 1 point away from 4th place) it would be difficult for the club not to give them a second chance without looking as cnuts.
I think that a manager should stick for a year.
transitional managers tend to be a poisoned chalice.
a) they tend to be not very good. I mean we're talking of people who are ready to take jobs as temps because others cant/wont take it at that time of year.
b) if they overachieve (ex in our case they take the club from 7th place to lets say 5th place with just 1 point away from 4th place) it would be difficult for the club not to give them a second chance without looking as cnuts.
I think that a manager should stick for a year.
SAF's thinking wasn't that bad. He was hoping to bring a manager who understand what United are, who has a good idea about the quality of the side/coaching staff and would therefore make the transitional period less bumpy then ever. Moyes came with a reputation of a hardworking person who listens to his peers, he manages to overachieve with a minimum budget and whose capable of developing talent.
What SAF underestimated was that money and stress can change people
http://www.footballfancast.com/football-news/manchester-united-eye-jurgen-klopp-as-moyes-replacement
http://www.thesportsbank.net/manchester-united/jurgen-klopp-replacement-432/
Cobblers, or time to start a KLOPP WATCH thread?
http://www.thesportsbank.net/manchester-united/jurgen-klopp-replacement-432/
Cobblers, or time to start a KLOPP WATCH thread?
what is being said?
I am hoping, I have actually almost convinced myself, that Moyes is a dead man walking.
I think that when the news got back to the Glazer's that the much vaunted frugal transfer market operator David Moyes wanted 200m to get their team of champions back into contention for a top 4 spot; that that was the moment when they realised the massive folly that has taken place. Time to find a new manager. The season is a write off so Moyes will be sacked immediately after the season is finished.
I think that when the news got back to the Glazer's that the much vaunted frugal transfer market operator David Moyes wanted 200m to get their team of champions back into contention for a top 4 spot; that that was the moment when they realised the massive folly that has taken place. Time to find a new manager. The season is a write off so Moyes will be sacked immediately after the season is finished.
Likely so because of his age but they should have got in touch with his agent early and monitored the situation. It would have been clear from there Roma were trying to persuade De Rossi to stay and it's the club he loves therefore they were always going to have a shot at being successful.
This is where a manager must excel, he has got to get the decisions right. In hindsight the transfer window went horribly however without a doubt Moyes' decisions were responsible for that.
The hesitancy aspect is overused however indecision is a big no no for a leader therefore he must be more decisive in the future. I mean if you type 'dithering (+ a space)' into google, the option 'dithering david moyes' comes up along with "dithering dave", "dithering audio" and "dithering definition". It could just be for me since, google do like to target search, but it appears indecision is one of his characteristics right now.
I agree it was thick actually. Positive attitude must have realism to it, I think the person's life that comes crashing down (wife leaves him, loses his job, gets diagnosed with something serious in a short space of time) is positive when he says "things aren't ideal, but I will overcome this" as opposed to the person who says "things are fine, my life is good, I'm happy".
When it became unlikely we would get Fabregas then it appears the pursuit was out of hope, especially since it had to be made public (Barcelona's club rules apparently). After a point it was no longer realistic and quite possibly borderline insanity. He didn't seem to react well to the very apparent possibility that arose he would not get Fabregas, in fact, Fellaini at £27m was his reaction.
Once that happens I would following MUTV on a regular basis to see how some people will change their tunes.
What is there to be proud of this season? The performances, the results? The crumbling of the team and the manager at every hurdle or when put under the slightest pressure? What exactly should a supported be proud of this season? Is it the "we will give Moyes time irrespective of anything" that supporters need to be proud of?
The fans at OT and away have been magnificent. They should be proud of themselves for not letting themselves or the team down. The team should be embarrassed with the performances they have put up and discussing it is not equivalent to being a WUM.
The article made clear the comments very well could have been in relation to Roma therefore the one article I posted wasn't using them out of context. I correctly suggested De Rossi was for sale, you replied stating it was merely a rumour and so I replied with quotes from both Rudi Garcia and De Rossi suggesting it was very likely he wanted to leave and to Manchester also. And then you replied with how the suicide portion of the comments were false, despite the article not using them out of context.
You seemed to have something against my response that De Rossi did want to leave to United evident by your attack on the words of Rudi Garcia. I don't think you were able to accept you made a mistake in stating it was only a rumour, when in reality it seems more likely that it wasn't.
This is not about how far you can remember but last season when he wanted to leave because he didn't feel appreciated by the fans or his team mates. About last summer when he was in a bad place, all of which were suggested by him! It's not right that you are giving more weight to media rumours than De Rossi's words.
This is about last summer when he made clear he wanted to leave. So yes, he was available.
The price is not mentioned in the quotes. However you continue to shy away from the very fact Rudi Garcia stated De Rossi was available until the season started and De Rossi himself suggesting this. Also, Rudi stating United made a bid too late.
Let me tell you why I think you are going to great lengths to defend an error from David Moyes. You clearly understand context therefore let's talk about the context of my original statement, it was to highlight David's indecision.
I made clear he could have done better than Fellaini however you attacked my points (and so defending Moyes' indecision) by inferring Thiago and his dad lied, Strootman wasn't the level of player we should be going for and De Rossi was just a rumour. I then replied with evidence it wasn't just a rumour, you then attacked the Guardian by stating the words of Rudi Garcia were false. I was merely stating (with evidence) David Moyes had the chance to sign De Rossi however his indecision led him to bid too late and once his window of opportunity had closed.
The following quote of yours implies his value would have been closer to £20m:
This could be true however Roma agreed to let an unhappy player leave. Something closer to £12m is more likely because he wanted to leave and they respected this. They would not then try to get the buying club to pay maximum dollar and refuse if they didn't, they had a gentleman's agreement
with De Rossi.
Your £20m is as much speculation as my £12m, I don't deny this. Just as you cannot deny Rudi Garcia stated United wanted De Rossi as evident by their bid but they took too long supporting my notion David Moyes' hesitancy cost us last summer. Therefore my original point still stands that De Rossi wanted out and we had our chance but didn't take it. I still maintain it is more probable a 30 year old unhappy midfielder is allowed to leave for £12m as opposed to demanding £20m+.
You missed my point completely. He is 30 with his last few seasons left, he wanted to walk into a team's central midfield and United were probably a team he respected. Not all players will leave for money, furthermore, United also could have offered him regular champions league football last season! I know we have failed now but we are looking at it from the perspective of last summer, you surely cannot be inferring that not finishing in the top four was actually a very real possibility! Nobody could have foreseen this season.
You admitted due to rumours that he there is awareness for him to leave every season! Your posts are quite contradictory to one another, you admitted the rumours are always there so his agent is doing his job. Last summer it was not a mystery he was unhappy.
You cannot assume he would care only for money, United could offer him a pay increase although not ridiculous wages like PSG or Monoco or the Russian clubs. I think it is plausible to think the possibility exists he would be content with the high wages United were able to offer.
I said elite clubs. The russian clubs are not elite, Monaco I don't think were even able to offer him champions league football last season. United's central midfield was crying out for a De Rossi. the others had there chance but I'm not surprised they didn't go for a 30 year old when he wasn't that badly needed. United were in a situation where they could have done with a short term fix in central midfield, if any top club would go for this 30 year old, it was them.
The media printing something isn't true? So Jurgen Klopp is coming to Manchester!!!The media lie all the time, it's a serious accusation when they print quotes from somebody who didn't say that. For the Guardian to lie using quotes that Rudi Garcia or De Rossi said what they did, that's a serious accusation. For them to print a story without backing it up, they do this all the time.
I think you trust the media a little too much, they do get things wrong sometimes.