United havent won the league since the Blood moon, another record. Cheers Moyes!
What will it take to sack moyes?
- Thread starter bosnian_red
- Start date
I said the comments were regularly used out on context as a way of bashing Moyes which is true and since the original post which brought them up was full of Moyes bashing that is the context I was replying to. This isn't the supreme court it's RedCafe so if you misinterpret something I post then it's your problem.
It not "as far back as I can remember" because De Rossi has been rumoured to have been on his way out of Roma for the best part of a decade and the article I linked shows that, I could find plenty of older ones as well. De Rossi most certainly did not make it clear he wanted to leave since myself nor the entire Redcafe seemingly knew about his wish to leave the club. Go to the De Rossi thread in our very own transfer forum which has 20+ pages on him and you'll see precisely 0 posts made about him during the summer when he was supposedly available, if he was clearly available as you claimed he would have at a bare minimum generated a few pages of discussion but since almost everyone had no idea about it until stories came out post window there wasn't.
The 12m price is mentioned in your post not the article, that's why I asked how YOU came up with the figure of 12m.
I don't believe he was available at 12m for reasons I've already given in earlier posts but you "stated" he was available for 12m and even used it it along with the fee paid for Strootman to (once again) bash Moyes with this "he must have felt Fellaini offered twice the value on the pitch than De Rossi and Strootman because he was double the price" etc
Also if you're going to quote me try to not be so dishonest and only quote a portion of my post. What I said was very clear in that the truth is probably somewhere in between and maybe he was available but at price closer to 20m+ which would be a fairly logical reason as to why IF he was so readily available top clubs wouldn't see much value in it considering his age and wages.
As I already pointed out he would walk into the CM of most of the sides I mentioned so that wouldn't be a concern. And I've brought up all of the Russian/French clubs as an evidence to support my claim it wasn't widely known he was available last summer especially not for 12m otherwise one of them would surely have been interested regardless if he had any intention of signing for them or not, and had his agent been doing his job this attention would have created more interest and strengthened his position at Roma or in bringing attention to him looking for a move.
My post isn't contradictory since I never said he wanted to leave every season I said there's rumours of him being on the move every season, an important distinction. These rumours happen because De Rossi is/was a world class CM playing for a side below his level so when any big european club needed a CM his name was immediately linked. Ross Barkley will be linked with a move from Everton every year, same for Shaw at Southampton and Draxler at Schalke and I could go on and on, it's not because they're actively looking for a move it's because they're playing for clubs that simply can't match their talent similar to De Rossi. Totti was linked with moves out of Roma for the majority of his career as well for the same reasons.
Honestly, a big lose to Everton could be the end of him, but I don't see us losing.
It's actually your problem, if you want to discuss something then be clear. The article was not taken out of context, you replied directly to my post claiming the comments were false even when the article pointed out they very well might have been in relation to Roma. You probably mis-read but won't admit it.
The original post was full of Moyes bashing...
Actually I have been on of his very few defendants when he has done something positive. I highlighted his indecision led to a poor summer transfer window. I have tried to be honest, just like I claim his away performance has been very good and if he beats Everton then excellent.
You are claiming my point that Moyes indecision led to a poor transfer window this summer is Moyes bashing.
You claim the original post was full of Moyes bashing. This is the original post:
I said we had a short window, yet it was longer than I thought! We had even longer, we had until the start of the Roma season. Had I been Moyes bashing then I would not have said we had such a short window, clearly I was giving Moyes the benefit of the doubt here because I could not recall what it exactly was when I wrote the post.
There is Moyes bashing and then there is looking at reality. You infer I was not being realistic in my statements but Moyes bashing.
I refuse your notion my post was not reality and that it was Moyes bashing. I think it was a fair assessment of the window. And I think you are the one being unrealistic in your support of Moyes here.
The entire season went badly for him, he said it himself in his own words! You are disputing De Rossi's own words and calling him a liar when he said he was not in a good place with his team mates and fans. Manchester United are connected with agents and they knew he wanted out, this is evidence by their bid, however the indecision allowed Rudi Garcia to reject it because once the season started De Rossi agreed he would stay and not put Roma in a difficult predicament where they had too little time to replace him.
I do not know what the problem is here, De Rossi did not lie. And if you are inferring he may have wanted to leave but Moyes was not aware what was happening, then this is even worse for Moyes' performance!
The rumours were £12m valuation and I made clear for a 30 year old who wants to leave, this is more realistic than £20m. If you do not view £12m as a realistic valuation for a 30 year old who wants to leave and had quite a poor season then I must question how you value players. It's quite obvious it was a fair valuation.
You continue claiming I am bashing Moyes, however, one look at my original post will show it was a fair assessment of the transfer window. He made errors but clearly you cannot accept this.
I even made clear in that post, you conveniently leave this out, I made clear Fellaini might be worth that however time will tell whether he can become as good as Moyes thinks he can. There was no criticism of Fellaini, there was questioning the valuation at being so high but the acknowledgement we must give it time to see if it was right. And you think this is moyes bashing?
Fellaini did brilliantly at Everton last season, he has struggled this season but in the next he will be better. If used as a holding player and if he can show better positional awareness then he could become very good. I don't know if he will however he has a good, well rounded skill set, he just needs to show better ball winning ability, positional awareness and less clumsiness / GBH.
So you think logically Roma valued a player that is 30 years of age, wants to leave and they agreed he could leave at £20m+? I can't accept such valuations.
So Rudi Garcia stating he was available is the liar here. Perhaps De Rossi didn't want Russian clubs or Monaco, it's plausible to assume he wanted champions league football at an elite club, if his agent made this clear to them then they wouldn't pursue. You must understand his agent did not want a bidding war, Roma were fine with him going providing it was before the season started.
Rudi Garcia probably was not lying.
And it is no surprise Chelsea or teams like that didn't want to take a gamble on a 30 year old with high wages who hadn't had the best of seasons. Moyes probably didn't either and this led to the indecision however when he realised the reality of our central midfield, that's when he did. He knew the central midfield was a problem immediately so he should have better handled the situation.
There also is no evidence, you have not provided evidence they did not contact De Rossi's agent. Claiming you did not read he was available in the papers is not evidence.
Also you infer his agent wanted to strengthen his position at Roma, but for what? It appears he wanted to leave Roma and it's fair to assume for an elite club, his agent could have contacted the clubs he wished to go to personally. There was no need for tabloid drama here.
I have been one of Moyes' very few supporters where there have been positives but when he has messed up, I have accepted it. He messed up in the last transfer window yet such a statement is worthy of accusations of Moyes bashing?
Your refusal to accept De Rossi's words and to accept Rudi Garcia's words is surprising. They are evidence of De Rossi wanting to leave last summer being more than just a rumour, however you accuse them of lies. Such is your determination to support David Moyes you are willing to accuse De Rossi and Rudi Garcia of lying about Manchester United's bid and De Rossi's desire to leave and go to Manchester.
David Moyes has done many good things however that last transfer window was a mistake. There were targets he could have primarily pursued that were far more realistic however his failure to do so might cost him his job.
The problem with Moyes is I don't like his style. It simply doesn't excite me or fill me with confidence in the sense I still have no idea what he is trying to achieve at the club. Surely when he was considered for the job the club must have looked at his vision and plans for the future? What tactics and style he wanted to employ and how he would set out to achieve it?
I was thinking about this earlier and it is the first time I have said it but I am really disappointed by the way the club has handled the departure of Sir Alex. We have had 20 odd years to plan for it yet the whole appointment of Moyes appears to have been done with little to no research. I appreciate the Glazers aren't football men but I expected much better from the influence of Sir Alex and Sir Bobby, then again, without meaning disrespect, are they too old to appreciate and understand these new modern coaches and the tactics they produce?
We were quite lucky that Mourinho and Guardiola were both available the summer of Sir Alex's retirement and logically they are the only two managers I feel could have slotted into the role instantly and command the same respect as Sir Alex himself. If you decide to approach the appointment in a different way, in a way which looks more to the future rather than the expectancy of instant success then we should have been looking at Jurgen Klopp or another similar manager with fresh ideas who practises modern football.
When you look at Klopp, Simeone, Rodgers, Conte and even the likes of Martinez and Pochettino, you can't help but be frustrated and ask questions. They all seem light years ahead of what Moyes and his coaches have brought to our club.
I was thinking about this earlier and it is the first time I have said it but I am really disappointed by the way the club has handled the departure of Sir Alex. We have had 20 odd years to plan for it yet the whole appointment of Moyes appears to have been done with little to no research. I appreciate the Glazers aren't football men but I expected much better from the influence of Sir Alex and Sir Bobby, then again, without meaning disrespect, are they too old to appreciate and understand these new modern coaches and the tactics they produce?
We were quite lucky that Mourinho and Guardiola were both available the summer of Sir Alex's retirement and logically they are the only two managers I feel could have slotted into the role instantly and command the same respect as Sir Alex himself. If you decide to approach the appointment in a different way, in a way which looks more to the future rather than the expectancy of instant success then we should have been looking at Jurgen Klopp or another similar manager with fresh ideas who practises modern football.
When you look at Klopp, Simeone, Rodgers, Conte and even the likes of Martinez and Pochettino, you can't help but be frustrated and ask questions. They all seem light years ahead of what Moyes and his coaches have brought to our club.
I think Moyes was selected for who he was rather than what he brings, if that makes sense. I think if you asked Fergie what he thought made him a top manager it would be his dour mentality, hardworking working class background and authoritarian approach. I think he saw a lot of himself in Moyes particularly in the way he built his Everton dynasty around himself and had that large axis of control over all footballing/club matters that SAF did too.
The issue is that Manchester United in 2014 is a totally different beast to Everton and indeed Manchester United in 1986. It takes more than those attributes to step into Fergie's shoes and I think that maybe SAF himself underestimated the size of the job.
Well, considering the 2014 of Dave Sexton is no longer with us, I'd say David Moyes is a slight upgrage.
Slight.
Think of the lift our fanbase would get if we sacked him. Replacing Fergie was never going to be easy for anyone since none of us would ever have wanted him to leave but replacing Moyes is arguably the easiest job you'll ever see. He's lowered the expectations dramatically and yet we still have a very good squad here and a good bit of money to play with.
Sack him now and get a talented, progressive manager in for the long term and we are sorted.
Sack him now and get a talented, progressive manager in for the long term and we are sorted.
Maybe it's just me being too optimistic but I genuinely believe now that there I hope for him to be sacked soon. The last few weeks I accepted he'd probably stay but after the Munich defeat, the way he said it's not his decision with what happens to his future, and all the stories coming out now give me hope there's a top 4 clause in his contract, and we're just waiting for it to be mathematically impossible to make it. A loss to Everton should do the trick I think.
ZOMBIE MOYES WANTS BRAINS
Weird to think we could be just a point or two behind fourth going into Christmas next season under someone like Pocchettino, and if we were only playing good football and doing a bit better in big games, the vast majority of fans would be very happy.
I agree. The Van Gaal stories in particular are encouraging as previously I thought Moyes might get a reprieve due to the non-availability of viable candidates. I truly hope we are right anyway as I cannot imagine going into a new season with less enthusiasm if Moyes is still here in August.
Oh if only that Klopp report was true, it would be such a huge boost going into the summer, especially if he brought Reus with him.
Trying to one-up living Moyes?
Trying to one-up living Moyes?
Living Moyes doesn't care about brains. That's why he kept Rooney.
Not that weird since thats all that was really expected of moyes this season, in fact if we had played entertaining football this season instead of the tumescent shit thats been served up for the most part, i doubt as many would want rid of moyes.
But the poor results coupled with shit football we have endured were only ever going to breed a negative atmosphere towards moyes.
One more season? What more proof do you need that he's not good enough to mange our club?
The article made clear the comments very well could have been in relation to Roma therefore the one article I posted wasn't using them out of context. I correctly suggested De Rossi was for sale, you replied stating it was merely a rumour and so I replied with quotes from both Rudi Garcia and De Rossi suggesting it was very likely he wanted to leave and to Manchester also. And then you replied with how the suicide portion of the comments were false, despite the article not using them out of context.
You seemed to have something against my response that De Rossi did want to leave to United evident by your attack on the words of Rudi Garcia. I don't think you were able to accept you made a mistake in stating it was only a rumour, when in reality it seems more likely that it wasn't.
This is not about how far you can remember but last season when he wanted to leave because he didn't feel appreciated by the fans or his team mates. About last summer when he was in a bad place, all of which were suggested by him! It's not right that you are giving more weight to media rumours than De Rossi's words.
This is about last summer when he made clear he wanted to leave. So yes, he was available.
The price is not mentioned in the quotes. However you continue to shy away from the very fact Rudi Garcia stated De Rossi was available until the season started and De Rossi himself suggesting this. Also, Rudi stating United made a bid too late.
Let me tell you why I think you are going to great lengths to defend an error from David Moyes. You clearly understand context therefore let's talk about the context of my original statement, it was to highlight David's indecision.
I made clear he could have done better than Fellaini however you attacked my points (and so defending Moyes' indecision) by inferring Thiago and his dad lied, Strootman wasn't the level of player we should be going for and De Rossi was just a rumour. I then replied with evidence it wasn't just a rumour, you then attacked the Guardian by stating the words of Rudi Garcia were false. I was merely stating (with evidence) David Moyes had the chance to sign De Rossi however his indecision led him to bid too late and once his window of opportunity had closed.
The following quote of yours implies his value would have been closer to £20m:
This could be true however Roma agreed to let an unhappy player leave. Something closer to £12m is more likely because he wanted to leave and they respected this. They would not then try to get the buying club to pay maximum dollar and refuse if they didn't, they had a gentleman's agreement
with De Rossi.
Your £20m is as much speculation as my £12m, I don't deny this. Just as you cannot deny Rudi Garcia stated United wanted De Rossi as evident by their bid but they took too long supporting my notion David Moyes' hesitancy cost us last summer. Therefore my original point still stands that De Rossi wanted out and we had our chance but didn't take it. I still maintain it is more probable a 30 year old unhappy midfielder is allowed to leave for £12m as opposed to demanding £20m+.
You missed my point completely. He is 30 with his last few seasons left, he wanted to walk into a team's central midfield and United were probably a team he respected. Not all players will leave for money, furthermore, United also could have offered him regular champions league football last season! I know we have failed now but we are looking at it from the perspective of last summer, you surely cannot be inferring that not finishing in the top four was actually a very real possibility! Nobody could have foreseen this season.
You admitted due to rumours that he there is awareness for him to leave every season! Your posts are quite contradictory to one another, you admitted the rumours are always there so his agent is doing his job. Last summer it was not a mystery he was unhappy.
You cannot assume he would care only for money, United could offer him a pay increase although not ridiculous wages like PSG or Monoco or the Russian clubs. I think it is plausible to think the possibility exists he would be content with the high wages United were able to offer.
I said elite clubs. The russian clubs are not elite, Monaco I don't think were even able to offer him champions league football last season. United's central midfield was crying out for a De Rossi. the others had there chance but I'm not surprised they didn't go for a 30 year old when he wasn't that badly needed. United were in a situation where they could have done with a short term fix in central midfield, if any top club would go for this 30 year old, it was them.
The media lie all the time, it's a serious accusation when they print quotes from somebody who didn't say that. For the Guardian to lie using quotes that Rudi Garcia or De Rossi said what they did, that's a serious accusation. For them to print a story without backing it up, they do this all the time.
I think you trust the media a little too much, they do get things wrong sometimes.
I have no intention of continuing this discussion with you since you continually resort to straw man arguments and we're only going in circles. If you can't accept the valuation that a world class player at 30 could be sold for 20m+ then I have three letters for you. R.V.P.
RVP vs De Rossi is the same?
RVP is a striker, De Rossi a defensive midfielder. And RVP had a cracking season, De Rossi nowhere near. In fact, earlier you were talking about De Rossi's comments due to Roma and his own form this season, one of the reasons he fell out with Roma in the summer was because they were criticising his performances. He fell out with the fans and his team mates, or at least this is what he said.
You think RVP who was a world class striker, at the height of his game, worth £20m+ can have a comparable valuation to De Rossi, even when Roma fans were on his back because he simply wasn't performing? I don't accept this logic. However, our discussion has begun because you didn't like my criticism of Moyes' transfer dealings resulting in Fellaini's £27m valuation therefore I can see why you would think an under performing De Rossi should be of similar value to an on his game RVP.
Furthermore, you are yet to admit you were wrong. All you have done is focus on the valuation, ignoring the main point that De Rossi was available and the very fact you continued to deny this even when I provided both Rudi and Danielle's words. There is nothing to dispute, you suggested De Rossi's availability was a rumour even when I brought it to you attention Rudi Garcia said so himself and even went as far as to state Manchester United made a bid for him. For you to be correct then Rudi must be lying.
I accept your lack of intention in arguing this; I would the same if I were in your shoes. Your argument is flawed, had you merely accepted when I brought to your attention what Rudi Garcia said, instead of trying to dispute his statement with all sorts of accusations then this discussion would have been over long ago.
And what have you to say about my so called 'Moyes bashing'? The original post, a fair suggestion that Moyes made errors in the summer transfer window that cost him, that is very obviously not Moyes bashing but a respectful and fair analysis of errors made. I'm not surprised you won't respond because that accusation on your part was also unfair. Unless you are of the opinion last summer's transfer window was a success, and I doubt anybody could be.
It's surprising that some fans still actually believe that Moyes can manage our team or miraculously improve on such a disastrous season. Or that anyone who calls for a clueless manager to be rightfully sacked is unintelligent or not a real supporter. In fact, persisting with him any further is more damaging to our club.
Another season like this one and we really can't blame the likes of De Gea if they wanted to leave...
If he's given another season and we get the same dour shit by Christmas, I can see the crowd turning hostile on him. Next season will be an even bigger farce especially if he's spent millions.
He's already spent millions, let's not forget he's already spent more than Jose has at Chelsea.
Because 1 season ruined is all the transition, and giving him a chance, and bad luck etc, but a second bad season will be disastrous.
I can see us being equally sh!T against the big teams, but some of the losses and draws we've thrown points away when he was pissing about early doors were incredible.
We've won some really good games away from home, and begun to beat the sh!tter teams here too.
4th should be pretty comfy just on beating everyone outside the top teams
Not really good enough though is it after you've cum shot £200m.
Hopefully on good signings, so if he can't deliver, the next coach will have an abundance of talent to work with.
That's all you've got?
Let's look at the main point of the discussion about De Rossi's availability under examination and your responses:
I said:
you replied:
I replied:
Your response:
My response:
Your reply:
I responded:
You get the idea.
You stated De Rossi being linked with United is a rumour.
Rudi Garcia stated he wanted to leave but United's bid was too late.
De Rossi inferred he was considering Manchester.
It is plausible to argue had Moyes been more decisive he could have signed De Rossi. Instead of accepting Rudi and De Rossi's quotes, you tried to argue they could be false. These are some lengths to defend David Moyes' summer errors.
Players like Strootman and Thiago moved, De Rossi was available also, however he ended up with Fellaini. The central midfield has been problematic this season but let's not act like Moyes couldn't have performed considerably better the summer just gone.
Furthermore you went on to accuse me of Moyes bashing:
This was the original post:
You honestly think the original post is Moyes bashing?
If Rudi Garcia and Danielle De Rossi are telling the truth and if the Guardian is not printing false quotes (both of which are highly probable) then:
- De Rossi wanted to listen to offers.
- He agreed a date he could leave before but gave his word he wouldn't leave, as Rudi put it, at the last minute.
- David Moyes put a bid in for him after the date De Rossi and Roma had agreed. He was allowed to speak to De Rossi however Danielle had given his word to Rudi about not leaving once the season had started. He did the honourable thing.
- David ended up with Fellaini (who might very well show he could become a better signing then De Rossi, however we don't know this yet).
- In hindsight from this season anyway, perhaps De Rossi would have been a better signing. Especially considering Fellaini might have been a panic buy.
I don't see any reason whatsoever for Danielle and Rudi to lie. It is possible false quotes were printed however this is dangerous practice for any publication to engage in. To make up stories is normal but to provide quotes and pass them off as what the person said isn't. And I would be surprised if the Guardian, Sky Sports* and ESPN** (amongst others) would use a source that happily makes up quotes.
*
(http://www1.skysports.com/football/...nited-target-daniele-de-rossi-to-stay-at-roma)
**
http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1...i-deadline-says-roma-boss-rudi-garcia?cc=5739
As it is, should Fellaini reach De Rossi's level then it will become a blessing in disguise. This is what we must encourage him to do; I expect him to be better next season.
As I said, it's speculation based on what we hope is true. But all the noises coming out from the board is that he will be given all the time in the world.
It's a funny one because anything else wouldn't be good for the share price. They don't want volatility therefore I can understand the perception they are creating.
I think it could go either way come the end of the season. When I think about it logically, and this is my guess, I think it depends on his replacement. Somebody like Louis Van Gaal comes with big risks too for instance, and I can't think of a manager who will not come with risks that is available.
Some managers if they became available they would probably employ due to the risk of giving Moyes another season:
- Mourinho
- Guardiola
- Klopp
- Ancelotti
- Conte
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They're never going to put a public deadline on it are they
Van Gaal and Moyes are in no way comparable risks.
For me, it's this.
Van Gaal is the better manager and he could mount a title challenge, he could even win it. Moyes I can see getting third or fourth but not being in the title race.
Van Gaal also failed to qualify for a world cup with Holland, had Barcelona 3 points above relegation before getting sacked (after christmas) and Bayern 4th in Bundesliga before getting sacked and that team went on to win the treble two years later.
I think Van Gaal is a much better coach than Moyes however we cannot overlook these failures. The board therefore have a question to ask, even if Moyes couldn't get us a title win, could he get around 80 points and secure champions league qualification?
If there answer is yes, then I'm not sure it's worth going for Van Gaal because despite all his positives, what he did with Barca and Bayern before the sack is quite unbelievable, probably worse than what Moyes has done but at the least on a similar level.
Now the question, could Moyes get 80 points?
I think it is too early to judge, we can at the end of the season. This season was a disaster and Moyes will learn from mistakes that will see him perform better next season. He will also strengthen key areas of the team therefore he might get about 15 points more than he did this season, if he finishes above 65points, I can see the board thinking he will get champions league football next season.
They will then replace him when a top manager is available because they will want a victorious club to have leverage on the negotiating table for the commercial deals.
Remember, this post is my guess on what the board might think. They might not see the point in sacking Moyes for Van Gaal and instead wait for a top manager to become available assuming they think Moyes will deliver champions league football.
It's all I need since it's all you post.
We might perform better, but can people really see us challenging for title with how the team have been playing so far? we might buy CM, LB, etc. but so are the other Top 4 teams.
Players is not the main problem this season, but how our team play and the philosophy of the manager. Will he suddenly change over the summer? why won't he start it from this season, to show if he intent to? Do we like United to be mold into Everton's style under Moyes? Is that style really what we as United fans want?
Players is not the main problem this season, but how our team play and the philosophy of the manager. Will he suddenly change over the summer? why won't he start it from this season, to show if he intent to? Do we like United to be mold into Everton's style under Moyes? Is that style really what we as United fans want?
Says the man who thinks the original post was 'Moyes bashing'.
It's clear, you accept you were wrong and De Rossi's availability last summer was not a rumour according to the words of both Rudi and Danielle. Rudi Garcia and Danielle De Rossi highlighted David Moyes' indecision and it's unfortunate, it really is.
I'm not quite sure why you refuse to accept this.
'All You Post', maybe if you were willing to accept the evidence of Rudi and Danielle you wouldn't feel this way.
It's hilarious that after I've twice told you about persistent use of strawman arguments you manage in one paragraph to say "It's clear you accept you were wrong" and in the next line "I'm not quite sure why you refuse to accept this".
You're now bordering on self parody.
No great managers are available, managers are poached normally. Unless on a few occasion of NT, sabatical leave, and long holiday
I agree and that's why I say he is equally likely to get sacked tomorrow as he is the next season's end. My point being we are not sure which one will be the straw that is going to break the camel's back.
Although I personally hope he is sacked at the end of the season, if not earlier.
IMHO, another possible scenario is a glossed up "Parting Ways by Mutual Consent" with a severance package that is much smaller than the normal fee in order to keep some dignity in his sacking.
Normally a non "money grabbing cnut" will take this approach and have a bit of decency to resign (taking the over), most managers have their pride, and the board although will not sack him, can give Moyes a very intimidating and subtle jibe which could be too much too handle
Normally a non "money grabbing cnut" will take this approach and have a bit of decency to resign (taking the over), most managers have their pride, and the board although will not sack him, can give Moyes a very intimidating and subtle jibe which could be too much too handle
Only perhaps 3-4 manager in this world are there with none to very minimal risks. Van Gaal is risky because of his style of confrontational management and not his track record. That is a different kind of risk to what Moyes presents. The board may feel that sticking with Moyes is the easier option of the two since Van Gaal could blow in their face as he is not a man to mince words.
That will surely come out of the blue with all the noises Moyes and the board have been making about patience. People know that it is as good as a sacking. Just a PR stunt to make it look better.