What has actually happened to Joe Hart?

Brwned said:
Last season? Absolutely. The season before? Nah. Read the thread if you want. 2/3 of the posts were overwhelmingly positive, highlighting how Hart was the best keeper in the league and a large portion of them talking about him being potentially one of the best in the world. He was seen as a much safer bet and a top talent that we let slip through our hands. A good 1/3 of the forum disagreed with this, as I said, and there were a good number of people pointing out his flaws. I just don't think anyone agreed with the David James comparison. That's it. If you were involved in these discussions and took some personal offence to being grouped in with this 2/3 then it'd make sense, but you weren't even on the forum at the time so this is just bizarre...especially since you've got a number of people that were here on the time agreeing with the general perception.
Click to expand...

I've been reading the forum for years and years. I don't see how my being involved or not involved in those discussions is relevant. I'm just pointing out that this is yet another instance of you overselling this 'voice of reason shouting in the wilderness' idea you seem to have about yourself and the caf. I'm not going to trawl back through and tally it up, because I'm not the one making a load of claims about what other people were saying. You're welcome to, or we can just agree to disagree.
 
I don't see how there's anything to disagree on. There were a good few people that thought Hart was being overrated - that 1/3 I was talking about in the first post. It just seems you overlooked that. No-one else agreed about the comparison to James - and at the time it was a tenuous and possibly silly comparison. That's it. I made it in two threads, no-one agreed, it's really that simple. You can't disagree about that because it's a fact, the evidence is right there...I don't see how this is an issue. I don't see that as me selling myself as some voice of reason as almost all of my predictions are wrong. I thought Agger and Skrtel would go on to be two of the best defenders in the world once Rio and Vidic were on the decline.
 
Brwned said:
I don't see how there's anything to disagree on. There were a good few people that thought Hart was being overrated - that 1/3 I was talking about in the first post. It just seems you overlooked that. No-one else agreed about the comparison to James - and at the time it was a tenuous and possibly silly comparison. That's it. I made it in two threads, no-one agreed, it's really that simple. You can't disagree about that because it's a fact, the evidence is right there...I don't see how this is an issue. I don't see that as me selling myself as some voice of reason as almost all of my predictions are wrong. I thought Agger and Skrtel would go on to be two of the best defenders in the world once Rio and Vidic were on the decline.
Click to expand...

-Nope, as I said I simply think it was a lot more than 1/3.

-On its own, no, but it's about the third time I've seen you doing it this summer. There was the Januzaj thread where you were trying to claim that everyone was getting hysterical and hyping him to kingdom come whereas in fact, as someone showed, no-one had gone beyond calling him a 'special talent', which was perfectly justifiable. There was very little over-the-top hype, but you insisted on sailing in with a 'calm down lads, unlike the rest of you I see things clearly and he's not the next Messi' attitude nonetheless.

Then before that there was the rant you went on about how everyone was claiming that Moyes was going to revolutionise us completely whereas in fact Fergie had already had us doing most of these 'new things.' Which would have been a perfectly good point, and one I agree with, but absolutely no-one was claiming anything of the sort. You posted it in response to me saying I thought Moyes might suit Cleverley slightly better, no more no less. You acted as though everyone was calling Fergie Tony Pulis and claiming that we still play 442.

Sorry if this comes off as a bit personal. It's just that possibly the worst thing about the Caf, for me, is people assuming that everyone else is acting (or is going to act) like an idiot, when in fact most people tend to be fairly level-headed. It brings the one or two weirdos to the surface, and ends up with threads getting swamped in debates which never needed to be had in the first place, because almost everyone already had the sensible take on things.

And in my experience the reason people do it in the first place is to try and prove how level-headed they are by comparison. 'No doubt everyone else is going to lose their heads as soon as Moyes loses a match, but I have more patience than that.' 'You're all getting very silly about Januzaj, but I've seen enough promising youth players to know better.' 'Everyone's acting as if Fergie was some sort of dinosaur, but I understand that we've been playing fluent, 4231 football for years.'
 
Brwned said:
Last season? Absolutely. The season before? Nah. Read the thread if you want. 2/3 of the posts were overwhelmingly positive, highlighting how Hart was the best keeper in the league and a large portion of them talking about him being potentially one of the best in the world. He was seen as a much safer bet and a top talent that we let slip through our hands. A good 1/3 of the forum disagreed with this, as I said, and there were a good number of people pointing out his flaws. I just don't think anyone agreed with the David James comparison. That's it. If you were involved in these discussions and took some personal offence to being grouped in with this 2/3 then it'd make sense, but you weren't even on the forum at the time so this is just bizarre...especially since you've got a number of people that were here on the time agreeing with the general perception.
Agreed.
In general he was excellent but you could see the arrogance would eventually lead to some problems and, as RK said, he and Kompany were the two players that seemed to be exposed in the CL games against top opposition. I think it was the Napoli games in particular that he looked weak in. These were forgotten about within days by the media and because of that I think quite a few people didn't even get a chance to see the mistakes. If his flaws were picked up on as they are with any other keeper then I think less people would've been talking about him as one of the best in the world, personally.
Click to expand...

I was one of DDGs biggest supporters even through the early days and said Hart was well over rated and often called him the new David James!
 
Foster's always been England's best keeper, and still is. Hart is pretty good though, as everyone else has said just not as good as the media built him up to be.

 
Decotron said:
On form with a settled defence on front of him hes shown he's more than capable of performing at the highest level, Equally he's capable of switching off at the wrogn time and poor footwork.
Click to expand...


"OMG How many times do we have to hear this!! :mad:"
 
alastair said:
Can someone link me to an arrogant interview? From my memory, he's usually very honest about his mistakes and is far more forthcoming in his confessions than others.
Click to expand...
I don't see him as arrogant either. If he was a united player and said all those things like what he said the madrid match, he would've been the character everyone liked. I've no idea why he is not doing as well he was before though. May he doesn't have the confidence anymore.
 
He is a great keeper, but knows he has no real competition for his place at City or England.
 
He's a good keeper, a very good keeper in fact.

I find this smugness some on here have adopted towards him rather annoying, tbh. Yes, his mistakes have been brushed under the carpet a little, but thats balanced on here with an over-the-top reaction to every mistake he makes. People on here are obsessed with him and his mistakes. He's not Superman, no, but he's certainly not an example of a poor keeper.

There's some things he doesn't do brilliantly, but I think its somewhat of a cliche to say that his distribution is rank. It's not excellent, not by any stretch of the imagination, but it's become vastly overexageratted just how bad it is because of the constant repitition. This website often acts like a bit of an echo chamber whereby sensible arguments, such as pointing out that Joe Hart could work on his kicking, get repeated until it sounds like some of you would die of shock if you saw Joe Hart find a team-mate.

It's obvious why it's happened, I know. The hyper-critical treatment of DDG for most of his first 2 seasons here was always tempered with a backlash here, and that manifested itself by taking it out on the medias current English obsession because of the perceived injustice that whilst De Gea was hung, drawn and quartered for the merest folly Hart was allowed to do whatever he wanted. The irony that the Cafs coping mechanism was to do the exact same thing with the role reveresed was lost, it seemed.
 
Just following the media lead and they're into "set 'em up - knock 'em down" mode.
 
Brightonian said:
-Nope, as I said I simply think it was a lot more than 1/

-On its own, no, but it's about the third time I've seen you doing it this summer. There was the Januzaj thread where you were trying to claim that everyone was getting hysterical and hyping him to kingdom come whereas in fact, as someone showed, no-one had gone beyond calling him a 'special talent', which was perfectly justifiable. There was very little over-the-top hype, but you insisted on sailing in with a 'calm down lads, unlike the rest of you I see things clearly and he's not the next Messi' attitude nonetheless.

Then before that there was the rant you went on about how everyone was claiming that Moyes was going to revolutionise us completely whereas in fact Fergie had already had us doing most of these 'new things.' Which would have been a perfectly good point, and one I agree with, but absolutely no-one was claiming anything of the sort. You posted it in response to me saying I thought Moyes might suit Cleverley slightly better, no more no less. You acted as though everyone was calling Fergie Tony Pulis and claiming that we still play 442.

Sorry if this comes off as a bit personal. It's just that possibly the worst thing about the Caf, for me, is people assuming that everyone else is acting (or is going to act) like an idiot, when in fact most people tend to be fairly level-headed. It brings the one or two weirdos to the surface, and ends up with threads getting swamped in debates which never needed to be had in the first place, because almost everyone already had the sensible take on things.

And in my experience the reason people do it in the first place is to try and prove how level-headed they are by comparison. 'No doubt everyone else is going to lose their heads as soon as Moyes loses a match, but I have more patience than that.' 'You're all getting very silly about Januzaj, but I've seen enough promising youth players to know better.' 'Everyone's acting as if Fergie was some sort of dinosaur, but I understand that we've been playing fluent, 4231 football for years.'
Click to expand...

Strange stuff. Basically your whole point's based on a misconception. Most of the caf aren't level headed nor do they try to be. Give it a few weeks and you'll see. The rest of the stuff is just nonsense. I expressed an opinion on Januzaj and quoted people I the thought were overreacting - you disagree, that's as far as it goes. If I remember correctly you re-addressed the Moyes post in the Cleverley thread a week or so later and said you agreed. Get a grip man.
 
NinjaFletch said:
He's a good keeper, a very good keeper in fact.

I find this smugness some on here have adopted towards him rather annoying, tbh. Yes, his mistakes have been brushed under the carpet a little, but thats balanced on here with an over-the-top reaction to every mistake he makes. People on here are obsessed with him and his mistakes. He's not Superman, no, but he's certainly not an example of a poor keeper.

There's some things he doesn't do brilliantly, but I think its somewhat of a cliche to say that his distribution is rank. It's not excellent, not by any stretch of the imagination, but it's become vastly overexageratted just how bad it is because of the constant repitition. This website often acts like a bit of an echo chamber whereby sensible arguments, such as pointing out that Joe Hart could work on his kicking, get repeated until it sounds like some of you would die of shock if you saw Joe Hart find a team-mate.

It's obvious why it's happened, I know. The hyper-critical treatment of DDG for most of his first 2 seasons here was always tempered with a backlash here, and that manifested itself by taking it out on the medias current English obsession because of the perceived injustice that whilst De Gea was hung, drawn and quartered for the merest folly Hart was allowed to do whatever he wanted. The irony that the Cafs coping mechanism was to do the exact same thing with the role reveresed was lost, it seemed.
Click to expand...



I agree he's a good keeper and I also agree the obsession with de Gea and Hart comparisons is bizarre (I said so in previous post and a few times in the de Gea thread) it'd be like constantly comparing Van Persie with Aguero every time he misses a chance or Kompany and Rio when one makes a mistake but equally I can kind of see why some people got their backs up a bit regarding Hart and mistakes. The fact of the matter is that the punditary in England except Neville and I'd say to an extent Dixon and Keane is pretty awful. The problem with this being Dixon and Keane only get 1 game a week so we rarely hear them, instead we're stuck with the drone of Match of the Day and that show is the worst for being very pro England. When Hart makes a mistake it should be brought up and that's a fact. It's brought up when it's de Gea, Reina, Scezney and even to an extent the likes of Ben Foster and other young English goalkeepers and yet when there was a Hart mistake I found MOTD especially just brushed over it and either tried blaming a defender or almost praising him for laughing it off! He shouldn't be laughing when he makes a mistake nor should he be crying, he just comes across as an idiot when he does it though.

There is no problem in criticism of Hart for making a mistake, it can go over the top at times on here but at the end of the day it's a Manchester United forum and he's a Manchester City player. If de Gea makes a mistake go on a Man City forum and I guarantee it'd be the same, it's a rival team and a keeper making a mistake will tend to cost the team a goal or create a big chance.

I disagree about his distribution, the problem being with the influx of foreign keepers, and I sound like I'm contradicting myself here cos of what I said before, but especially Spanish keepers like de Gea is their distribution tends to be very good and can create chances. There was points last season where whenever Hart got the ball he'd basically kick it out for a throw in or chuck it back to the opposite team, it does need working on as it puts City back under pressure.

I think very few people will suggest he's a poor keeper and I think he is the best England have to offer right now but at the same time I think the media especially got way to carried away with him. I said it previously that it's alright to make a mistake for City when you are 4-0 up and there's nothing to play for but last season he did it at crucial times. The Sunderland game springs to mind, give it time and he'll do it for England in a massive game and the backlash will be ridiculous. For all the people who say de Gea gets a hard time I'd imagine if that does happen Hart will get it 10 times worse.
 
Oggmonster said:
I agree he's a good keeper and I also agree the obsession with de Gea and Hart comparisons is bizarre (I said so in previous post and a few times in the de Gea thread) it'd be like constantly comparing Van Persie with Aguero every time he misses a chance or Kompany and Rio when one makes a mistake but equally I can kind of see why some people got their backs up a bit regarding Hart and mistakes. The fact of the matter is that the punditary in England except Neville and I'd say to an extent Dixon and Keane is pretty awful. The problem with this being Dixon and Keane only get 1 game a week so we rarely hear them, instead we're stuck with the drone of Match of the Day and that show is the worst for being very pro England. When Hart makes a mistake it should be brought up and that's a fact. It's brought up when it's de Gea, Reina, Scezney and even to an extent the likes of Ben Foster and other young English goalkeepers and yet when there was a Hart mistake I found MOTD especially just brushed over it and either tried blaming a defender or almost praising him for laughing it off! He shouldn't be laughing when he makes a mistake nor should he be crying, he just comes across as an idiot when he does it though.

There is no problem in criticism of Hart for making a mistake, it can go over the top at times on here but at the end of the day it's a Manchester United forum and he's a Manchester City player. If de Gea makes a mistake go on a Man City forum and I guarantee it'd be the same, it's a rival team and a keeper making a mistake will tend to cost the team a goal or create a big chance.

I disagree about his distribution, the problem being with the influx of foreign keepers, and I sound like I'm contradicting myself here cos of what I said before, but especially Spanish keepers like de Gea is their distribution tends to be very good and can create chances. There was points last season where whenever Hart got the ball he'd basically kick it out for a throw in or chuck it back to the opposite team, it does need working on as it puts City back under pressure.

I think very few people will suggest he's a poor keeper and I think he is the best England have to offer right now but at the same time I think the media especially got way to carried away with him. I said it previously that it's alright to make a mistake for City when you are 4-0 up and there's nothing to play for but last season he did it at crucial times. The Sunderland game springs to mind, give it time and he'll do it for England in a massive game and the backlash will be ridiculous. For all the people who say de Gea gets a hard time I'd imagine if that does happen Hart will get it 10 times worse.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with most of that, punditry in this country is crap and English players get away with a lot (although Neville never criticised him at all, so its not like he was not part of the problem) but that doesn't mean we have to jump to the other extreme just to disagree with them.

Also, I agree that De Gea gets the same treatment on City forums after a mistake, but its for that exact reason we laugh at places like bluemoon and call them bitter.

He had a poor season last season, and I think even the most deluded City fan in the world would admit that, but sometimes that happens. If it continues and becomes a theme of his career than fine, but the daggers are out far too early and he'll probably turn around and make people look stupid.
 
Brwned said:
Strange stuff. Basically your whole point's based on a misconception. Most of the caf aren't level headed nor do they try to be. Give it a few weeks and you'll see. The rest of the stuff is just nonsense. I expressed an opinion on Januzaj and quoted people I the thought were overreacting - you disagree, that's as far as it goes. If I remember correctly you re-addressed the Moyes post in the Cleverley thread a week or so later and said you agreed. Get a grip man.
Click to expand...

I don't really need to give it a few weeks. I've been reading the Caf long enough to see that most fans on here are sensible, and it's only the loudly idiotic ones who make it seem otherwise. The difference is that I don't feel the need to preface every statement I make by claiming that everyone else is (or will be) misguided and wrong to try and make myself feel big. Again, it's not your opinions that I have a problem with, it's the silly condescension with which you feel it necessary to express them.

Anyway, it's your MO and obviously you're not going to stop doing it just because I've pointed it out, so I'll leave it there.
 
It's a bit weird that you've decided you've worked out my MO based on three discussions.
 
Don't feck with Brwned, Brighty, he'll fecking end you.

Brwned's MO is much more sinister than anything your sensitive little soul could ever even begin to comprehend. There's a darkness behind his words which even I cannot compete with.
 
Talking Vulture said:
Roy Keane called it last year - he thinks he's the best keeper in the world and has believed his own hype.
He is a very good keeper but feck me, the mistakes he makes would make Taibi blush. Not fit to lick de Gea's doughnuts
Click to expand...

While Pirlo cutting him down to size was the best moment of Euro 2012 for me, keepers need to have an ego about them. Otherwise one mistake snowballs into a serious of blunders. I don't think it's a confidence issue with Hart rather just the inexperience of relative youth. Very few keepers are consistently, season after season, world-class in their mid-20s, apart from Buffon and Cech in recent times. And as Hart just isn't on that level, he'll wait have to wait like the rest of keepers who peak in their late-20s and early-30s.
 
Haven't read through the thread but I never thought he was anywhere near as good as the English media decided to proclaim him as in the first place...and think that was a view shared by a lot of people. In fact a lot on here seemed to go too far the other way and I seem to remember defending him on here?

He had that one very good season at City, but before that he was notable for his clown like performances for the likes of Birmingham, and for being too eager to deal with things that he should just trust his defenders with.

He's not lost either of these traits really (apart from no longer being stuck in Birmingham, which is good). I can't remember ever feeling that comfortable with him in goal for England. He was obvious first choice but that was less him being really good and more him not being Rob Green or David James.

He's also still quite young in goalkeeper terms. A lot of keepers can be the wrong side of 30 before they really iron out the weaknesses, so I'd guess he'll still potentially improve a fair bit.

I know Fergie talked him up a lot in pre match press conferences, but what comes out of Fergie's mouth before games is rarely what he actually thinks.

The David James comparisons are also unfair, but possibly based less on his ability to goalkeep and more on his ability to come across as a super serious weirdo.
 
I thought he was pretty good at Birmingham. He made the team of the year I think. He was definitely the Birmingham player of the year, he was unreal for them at times.

I made the point earlier that shotstopping is what catches the eye first, followed by everything else (which wasn't as good)
 
I remember thinking he was decidedly dodgy at Birmingham.

Keepers always seem to end up being the heroes at crap teams. Well, keepers and Scott Parker
 
He's the new Wayne Rooney. Young, English and quite good. Destined by curse of birth for a career that is perceived to oscillate between genius and tragic unfulfillment. When really he is quite good.


.
 
He's a good goalkeeper and England's best, but the press get carried away. They go straight from good enough, and with potential to be even better, to "best in the world" and that's a pointless leap, bound to end in build 'em up, knock 'em down syndrome.

Hart also had one season when his errors basically went unpunished. He got away with palming shots back to forwards, misjudging his position, fumbling the ball and poor distribution - because the mistakes were going unpunished and his defenders were doing great jobs. It exaggerated his ability, just as making a mistake that leads to a goal in an England shirt exaggerates his flaws.

Even the best keepers make mistakes, the difference between them and the others is that they recover fast and don't let it affect them for the rest of the game or the rest of the season. It's what distinguishes Foster from Hart say.

Equally, a keeper who doesn't learn, doesn't improve and the flaws start to matter sooner or later. Like with Casillas, the best shotstopper I've seen: when his natural fitness started to fade, his reflexes and his leap lost their magic and his positional deficiencies and lack of organisational skills were exposed - Mourinho wasn't just being petty when he dropped him.

Is Keane right to suggest that Hart has stopped learning? Well, if he is, then the change of manager at City is probably the best thing that can happen to him in terms of shaking him up and making him think.
 
Ciderman90210 said:
Don't feck with Brwned, Brighty, he'll fecking end you.

Brwned's MO is much more sinister than anything your sensitive little soul could ever even begin to comprehend. There's a darkness behind his words which even I cannot compete with.
Click to expand...


:lol: I was told early on not to argue with idiots in public - I had to learn not to argue with people smarter than me from bitter experience.
 
It won't be long until every player is wearing one of these. Brilliant piece of technology. A mate of mine used to wicket keep with a crap quality pair of 'camera goggles' a few years ago. Then goPro came along.

edit: A shame a lot of the training footage in the mini-game was quite clearly staged.
 
Cheesy said:
I'm not trying to excuse him or anything with it. He undoubtedly did have a very poor season and made a very high number of errors but on his day he was still a strong shot stopper and had some very good games in there too. A lot less than some of his previous seasons though, obviously.
Click to expand...

Of the top 10 gk's in the league he also frequently tops the table of shots saved into a dangerous area. A good shot stopper yes but his defenders are helping him out a lot. It's not a coincidence that Zabaleta was their best player last season and Kompany the best the season before that.
 
Butland should really force a loan move as him and Forster have excellent chances to take the England spot.
 
He's been making these mistakes for years, just before he seemed to get lucky and get away with it. Decent keeper don't get me wrong but he's well overrated.
 
Hart has been very poor for a season and a half now his mistakes apart that are bad enough his distribution is shocking!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.