I wonder if Ibrahimovic himself thinks he's better than Ronaldo and Messi put together.
Probably.
What exactly has Rooney done?
- Thread starter B Cantona
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I wonder if Ibrahimovic himself thinks he's better than Ronaldo and Messi put together.
Probably.
this plus rooney is 23.....Great thread mate.
Wayne Rooney is world class, in my opinion, but not because he's world class at anything, but he's quite good at just about everything on a pitch.
I'd take him over most players in the world in a heartbeat.
As for Zlatan, he's over-rated, good, VERY good, a great striker, but he's not as great as everyone says he is.
Rooney is one of the best two-way players in the world, and he's still improving.
the best is yet to come!
TrueA lot of people here are slating Ibrahimovic based on a few games against us, though, rather than the fact that he's one of the top goalscorers in Europe, and is considered by most football commentators to be one of the top 10 players in the world - about at the same level as Rooney, in fact.
Now who the better player is is debatable, but it would only be United fans who would make it a no brainer in favour of Rooney.
Rooney is 23 and more than 4 years younger than Zlatan. Zlatan is probably at his peak now whereas Rooney is arguably 3 or 4 years off his peak, Rooney has more scope for improvement.Rooney is playing in the better league in recent years, Zlatan might stand out more because the Serie A is described as being at its worst state in the last 3 or 4 years in a long time, whereas top flight English football has probably been as strong as it has ever been.
Rooney is a more sacrificial player, he has played in about 4 or 5 different positions.Even when hes not at his best he tends to contribute something in games.Goalscoring aside Rooney has plenty to his game, not saying Zlatan doesn't though, he has wonderful skill (although at times he looks like Mido)
I think Rooney is a more valuable player than Torres as well in my opinion. Hes 19 months younger, has more to his game, doesn't score as many goals (but would have scored more if he hadn't been so sacraficial and has a better international record)but contributes more overall(Torres can come across as quite sulky when things aren't going his way, Rooney may need to be careful with refs but he roles his sleeves up for the team).I think he has more scope for improvement. i feel Torres is a player who may be at his peak now as i feel hes liable to continue getting hamstring injuries the way he plays the game, it won't help playing 3 international tournaments in consecutive summers(i reckon Spain will play in 3 consecutive finals) and he wasn;t used to playing so much football at Athletico, in a less physically demanding league.
Of course the likes of Messi and Ronaldo are on a level above.
Rooney is a more sacrificial player, he has played in about 4 or 5 different positions.Even when hes not at his best he tends to contribute something in games.Goalscoring aside Rooney has plenty to his game, not saying Zlatan doesn't though, he has wonderful skill (although at times he looks like Mido)
I think Rooney is a more valuable player than Torres as well in my opinion. Hes 19 months younger, has more to his game, doesn't score as many goals (but would have scored more if he hadn't been so sacraficial and has a better international record)but contributes more overall(Torres can come across as quite sulky when things aren't going his way, Rooney may need to be careful with refs but he roles his sleeves up for the team).I think he has more scope for improvement. i feel Torres is a player who may be at his peak now as i feel hes liable to continue getting hamstring injuries the way he plays the game, it won't help playing 3 international tournaments in consecutive summers(i reckon Spain will play in 3 consecutive finals) and he wasn;t used to playing so much football at Athletico, in a less physically demanding league.
Of course the likes of Messi and Ronaldo are on a level above.
This is the perfect topic for the Inter-Forum Exchange
There's your problem right there, Brad. FV is a well-known spastic, who wanks over everything not United. Just wind him up and have done with it. Little use wasting your time trying to develop a constructive rebuttal.
But this is ridiculous logic...How else are we to judge a players standing if we disregard big games?
By that logic someone who scores 30+ goals and performs brilliantly in the SPL is as good as Messi
Whats to stop us claiming Cantona was better than Zidane?....Nothing.
Does Not Compute I'm affraid
A lot of people here are slating Ibrahimovic based on a few games against us, though, rather than the fact that he's one of the top goalscorers in Europe, and is considered by most football commentators to be one of the top 10 players in the world - about at the same level as Rooney, in fact.
Now who the better player is is debatable, but it would only be United fans who would make it a no brainer in favour of Rooney.
Not really. If you just compare them domestically its certainly debatable and Ibrahimovic might well come out of it favourably - though you have to take into account that Serie A is clearly only the 3rd best league and the premiership is the best.
But if you look beyond that at the tournaments where players are supposed to prove their class - world cups, euros and the champions league - Ibrahimovic doesnt even come close.
Personally I'd much rather a player who scores a few less goals in our domestic league, but you can count on him to get goals in big matches on big occasions in the final stages of the biggest tournaments. Because thats how you win those tournaments. And thats why Rooney has won tournaments like that and Ibrahimovic has never come close.
Basically what it comes down to is that Rooney and Ibrahimovic have a similar amount of footballing talent.
But they do not have a similar amount of character on a football pitch. Zlatan seems to reserve all his character for his interviews instead. And you can always count on Rooney to represent on the biggest, toughest stage. Those are the kinds of players you want as they will lead you to winning things. Premadonnas like Zlatan Ibrahimovic will always talk a better game than he actually plays on the big stage.
But they do not have a similar amount of character on a football pitch. Zlatan seems to reserve all his character for his interviews instead. And you can always count on Rooney to represent on the biggest, toughest stage. Those are the kinds of players you want as they will lead you to winning things. Premadonnas like Zlatan Ibrahimovic will always talk a better game than he actually plays on the big stage.
Well said !
I agree, this would be an interesting topic to flex with Inter Milan supporters, or supporters of wherever he's off to.
Well if you have to take into account "big games" when deciding if a player is better than another, then why are people still debating about Ronaldo and Messi? Messi clearly offers more in the "big games", and always has done.
Fact is, people don't take into account the "big games" and thus Rooney is not head and shoulders above Ibrahimovic. I don't think Rooney's even the best striker in the Premiership, or even the second best, let alone better than one of the best strikers in the world.
That's not to say he's not brilliant, mind, but I guarantee that if the lad weren't English and United through-and-through ("once a blue, always a blue!") then he'd be nowhere near as highly rated on these forums. Just look at how badly some of our own fans think of Ronaldo.
Fair enough. I understand your point. But despite it being Serie A which although isn't regarded as a top league anymore, his goalscoring exploits with Inter have been impressive. And Ibrahimovic like Rooney isn't what I'd describe as a pure goalscorer, he has several other facets to his game. He's technically more gifted than Rooney. I understand he hasn't done it in the big games but it's a matter of opinion for me rather than a fact that it makes him a lesser player. Cantona wouldn't have been on the same level ability wise of Zidane even if he performed better in Europe.
They are comparable, but Rooney is superior in my eyes. Maybe I was being a little daft with the 'comfortably' comment. But I wouldn't contemplate even having Ibra over Rooney.
Really?
Chelsea Semi's? Semi's vs Us last year?
Even the Final against us I thought he was quite quiet...His contribution was wildly exaggerated due to the media obsession with them 2.
I'd say they're about equal in big games
Messi was one of the main reasons why Barcelona won and effectively controlled the final. We saw a different side of him I felt as we saw a player who could control a match rather than simply just take it to a team which can often be hit and miss. As great as Ronaldo is I don't think he has capacity to control a match in the same vein but then again he is a more forward player.
If anything Messi's contribution in the final has been underrated on this forum with many just feeling he turned up to score a goal and not much else. He was instrumental although not as much as Xavi and Iniesta to their win.
I'm gunna go ahead and assume CD is on one of his wind ups, because he can't be serious with what he's posting, he's better than that
Mockney's got it nailed on. With Ibrahimovic, it's all excuses. Can't be arsed. Big games don't matter. Team mates letting him down. And of course, the use of entirely bullshit terms such as more 'technically gifted' and being more 'naturally talented'
United, the best team in the world, in the best league in the world, aren't the same team when Rooney isn't in the side. I find the attitude of some United supporters towards him pathetic. All this bollocks about being overrated... utter nonsense
I like discussing Rooney though. Usually gives a very good indication about who's got a clue what they're on about, and who aint
Mockney's got it nailed on. With Ibrahimovic, it's all excuses. Can't be arsed. Big games don't matter. Team mates letting him down. And of course, the use of entirely bullshit terms such as more 'technically gifted' and being more 'naturally talented'
United, the best team in the world, in the best league in the world, aren't the same team when Rooney isn't in the side. I find the attitude of some United supporters towards him pathetic. All this bollocks about being overrated... utter nonsense
I like discussing Rooney though. Usually gives a very good indication about who's got a clue what they're on about, and who aint
I was under the strong impression that Xavi and Iniesta were the main reasons we lost the final. Messi's lovely little runs were often forced wide rarely directly threatened anything. I think Ronaldo did better with little or no support than Messi would have done in similar circumstances...That could be red tinted bias, but thats how I saw it.
I'm not saying Messi's never turned up for big games...of course he has, I'm just saying his ratio's about as good as Rons
Ibrahimovic vs Rooney is quite a lot like Berbatov vs. Tevez. A lot of similar arguments made for Ibrahimovic and Berbatov.
So I'm absolutely clueless for entertaining the possibility that currently Ibrahimovic might be a better player? I've not had a dig at Rooney in any of my posts, and value the contribution he makes to our club, and I do fully understand his importance. The best is yet to come from him. It's amazing how arrogant some people are in this forum when an opposing point they dont agree with is put forward. I understand if what some are saying is completely ludicrous but which ever way you look at it, the gulf in class between Ibrahimovic and Rooney irrespective of who you think is the better player isn't massive.
Ronaldo was one of our better players and so you can't really criticise him in the final as although other then the first ten minutes he didn't do anything of note, it wasn't his fault.
Messi was great at keeping the ball and making sure our players work their arses off in terms of getting it back. For that he had a good game as once Barcelona had gone up their main aim was to ensure we didn't get back into it.
Oh he undoubtably played better on the day...but is his Big Game Performance ratio really far superior to Ronnie's? and therfore..as the original point suggested...and unfair way of judging top players?
Personally I felt Ronaldo won WPY because of his big games in 08, as Kaka did in 07 (Ronaldo had a far more consistant season) and Messi will win in 09...therefore they are a decent barometer
Personally I felt Ronaldo won WPY because of his big games in 08, as Kaka did in 07 (Ronaldo had a far more consistant season) and Messi will win in 09...therefore they are a decent barometer
You're welcome to your opinion, and if you make a good arguement to back it up, fine
I'm presuming it's based on more than beens posted to back Zlatan up so far though, because that has been clueless bollocks. Especially these terms like 'natural ability' which really do mean absolutely feck all, but are somehow used to justify
I can see how you may rate Zlatan, fine. Better player than Rooney? How can a player that plays in a much weaker league these days, who's never even scored at the business end of the biggest club competition, and doesn't play for as big a club, honestly be considered better? If he moves to a bigger club, or even stays at Inter and shoots them deep into Europe, then you could begin to make an argument. But as things stand, well it's just daft
For me, Rooney is better. But to totally disregard Ibra is not smart either. He has been the star player for Inter for quite a few years now, even if Serie A is worse. Also did well for Juve.
I lived in Milan for 6 months and they treat him like a god on TV, analysing him all the time. Now, that may be overrated but he's definitely one of the best players in that league.
Maybe like Cantona, he has found that he is more suited to Serie A to Cantona's preference for PL. Some players are just better suited to other leagues
I lived in Milan for 6 months and they treat him like a god on TV, analysing him all the time. Now, that may be overrated but he's definitely one of the best players in that league.
Maybe like Cantona, he has found that he is more suited to Serie A to Cantona's preference for PL. Some players are just better suited to other leagues
I can never understand any United supporter saying Rooney is overrated. Fair enough, the ABU's might try and claim he is but we all know they're spastics anyway so you expect that. IMO, the side should be built around Wayne Rooney as the lad has everything in his locker and then some. He's got so much more inside him that I think we'll see come to the surface in the next year or two. I can see him being here the rest of his career, we don't look the same side when Rooney doesn't play, his spark and energy are sorely missed.
His finishing this season was far better than last, the goalscoring run he had for both club and country at the same time was arguably his best ever.
His finishing this season was far better than last, the goalscoring run he had for both club and country at the same time was arguably his best ever.
And it helps if the league you're suited too isn't that good, in fact in the worst state it's been in in living memory
I'd always be careful when I talk about Cantona and the Champions League. Never thought he got a fair crack at that level besides 1997 due to the earlier restrictions placed on foreign players.
Although you could say he didn't play well so he was suited to the PL when we always had a strong team out. But he's not had the same chances as Ibrahimovic.
This
Mark my words, stick rooney in serie A and it wouldnt be funny how much he would dominate.
Opinions, eh?
Rooney is definitely overrated on here but it's understandable because he's English and loves this club. People actually believe that he's our best player which given Ronaldo's performances over the last couple of seasons is ridiculous.
He's a better player than Ibrahimovic though.
He's a better player than Ibrahimovic though.
I was going to say only this, swap them over in their domestic leagues and then try to claim Zlatan Ibrahimovich is anything other than an occasional talent and a self-promoting total c0ck.
More 'Rooney is overrated' bollocks
The thing is, last season, Rooney did have the better season. Ronaldo finished pretty strongly, and actually ended up with an impressive goal tally, but I've not seen a single fan poll that doesn't put Rooney ahead of him
The season before, well no one argues Ronaldo didn't deserve the world player of the year award, he was sensational. At the same time mind, Rooney had a cracking season himself. In fact the only league game we lost when we played, was with a weakened team away at Chelsea, and he'd actually levelled the scores at 1-1 when he had to go off injured
I just don't understand what part of being very highly rated for being an undroppable player, and arguably the most important given what he brings to the team, is construed as 'overated'
I'd say actually he isn't rated enough, and some of the bollocks in these threads regarding him and players like Zlatan highlights that perfectly
PSmith is right. The Rooney love on here is really over the top mostly.
If I woke up next week to headlines saying Manchester swap Rooney for Zlatan , I would be gutted. He is our best or second best player. Our team came within three games of winning everything worth playing in and still people say we over rate Rooney because he is English.
To be honest it is getting a bit stupid now. Zlatan is a great skilful player but I would rather have Rooney in my team every time. That is all that matters. Whether a player can pull the ball out of the air with his pubic hair, and then fart it into the net once a season or not. If he doesn't show in the big games and generally wonders about like Berbatov on valium. I will take the guy who actually applies himself every game and by doing so is far more effective.
To be honest it is getting a bit stupid now. Zlatan is a great skilful player but I would rather have Rooney in my team every time. That is all that matters. Whether a player can pull the ball out of the air with his pubic hair, and then fart it into the net once a season or not. If he doesn't show in the big games and generally wonders about like Berbatov on valium. I will take the guy who actually applies himself every game and by doing so is far more effective.
still waiting on Interista to enter this thread, really curious as to what he has to say
Rooney has done plenty. I won't list medals, his goal tally or even go on about how instrumental he's been for United and how badly England miss him when he's absent, it's all well documented.
What I will say is that he doesn't always realise his potential. When I say 'always', I don't expect him to be 9 or 10 out of 10 in every game he plays, but I mean just consistently reliable. On the big day, that is. Don't get me wrong, Rooney is effing brilliant and one of my favourite players, but I almost feel his genius in his teens has set the bar so high that when he doesn't deliver we wonder why. I still look to his England performances in 2004 or even at United in 04/05 or 05/06 and believe it might be his best days. Maybe it's because those around him weren't shining, I'm not sure, but I just always felt he delivered and could score a big goal.
His two Champions League final appearances have disappointed me, to be perfectly honest. Understandably this year's even more so. Off the back of a decent campaign and maybe with something to prove having been subbed the year previous, I expected more.
I have said elsewhere that he can break all the records - appearances and goals for United or England. But it depends on his fitness, which given he gets a setback at least once a season, could be difficult. As could him maintaining his form.
I'd take Rooney over Ibrahimovic every time if that's what the debate is, but someone of Wayne's ability should grab more personal accolades as he's capable of 20 PL goals a season, something I've been waiting for from him for a while. I am probably being overly critical, I just feel knowing what he's capable of, he could be even more than just one of our best team players.
What I will say is that he doesn't always realise his potential. When I say 'always', I don't expect him to be 9 or 10 out of 10 in every game he plays, but I mean just consistently reliable. On the big day, that is. Don't get me wrong, Rooney is effing brilliant and one of my favourite players, but I almost feel his genius in his teens has set the bar so high that when he doesn't deliver we wonder why. I still look to his England performances in 2004 or even at United in 04/05 or 05/06 and believe it might be his best days. Maybe it's because those around him weren't shining, I'm not sure, but I just always felt he delivered and could score a big goal.
His two Champions League final appearances have disappointed me, to be perfectly honest. Understandably this year's even more so. Off the back of a decent campaign and maybe with something to prove having been subbed the year previous, I expected more.
I have said elsewhere that he can break all the records - appearances and goals for United or England. But it depends on his fitness, which given he gets a setback at least once a season, could be difficult. As could him maintaining his form.
I'd take Rooney over Ibrahimovic every time if that's what the debate is, but someone of Wayne's ability should grab more personal accolades as he's capable of 20 PL goals a season, something I've been waiting for from him for a while. I am probably being overly critical, I just feel knowing what he's capable of, he could be even more than just one of our best team players.