After seeing him last night I would be after that Samu lad for a good price, what a unit at 20 yo, would be very much suited to the prem
What do we still need? Aka The never ending story
- Thread starter Devil may care
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
I think it's safe to say that this three-year rebuild project is a bust. We're going to need a major overhaul before we're able to be a serious club.
We need to replace the following, like for like:
-Zirkzee
-Antony
-Bruno
-Eriksen
-Mount
-Casemiro
-Evans
-Lindelof
We need to replace the following, like for like:
-Zirkzee
-Antony
-Bruno
-Eriksen
-Mount
-Casemiro
-Evans
-Lindelof
Replace Zirkzee
he has played 5-6 games for us under a very poor manager and a collectively shit team with no actual gameplan.Replace Zirkzee
Ten Hag is at fault for a lot of things, but one thing he isn't at fault for is Zirkzee being absolutely hapless at finishing.
We need strikers that can bang in goals left and right when they're given chances in dangerous areas, and while Zirkzee definitely has qualities, that isn't one of them. He was the wrong striker to buy.
I'm hoping that Hojlund will stay fit now because he's much more competent at burying chances but we can't be a club that only has one striker that can score goals.
What part of making a loss do you not understand!
If the corner shop owner produces a total revenue of 1m in year one but loses £25,000
Then in year two increases turnover to £1.5m and loses £40,000
He may have projections for year 3 at £2m but the bank now want their loan repayments and interest on the loan that shop owner leveraged his business on, banks and investors don’t care so much about incremental revenue if your making a net loss each year; it’s called being ‘Busy Fools’
Unlike a state who would have just thrown money at United until it eventually fixed itself, SJR believes in economies of scale and streamlining business to be more robust economically until that business is making a profit which he is then more than happy to reinvest into that business.
He’s gone on record as saying as much that he’s a wealthy man and not looking to take anything out of the club so whatever the club makes in profit, they can reinvest back into the club.
SJR is not going to put £3 billion of his own cash into the club to build a new stadium and invest £1billion into a new squad.
And he will promote through the new management team a much higher emphasis on recruiting Top British and PL proven talent.
You may want Edon Zhregrova and Mohamed kudas, they are simply not happening right now because the £120m the clubs they currently play for would want for both players won’t be agreed by SJR. Timestamp and come back to me January 25 and September 25, I’ll be more than happy to apologise if either player are signed?
If you have a revenue of 700m in year 1 and make a 50m loss, then a revenue of 600m in year 2 with the same expenses you'll have made a far bigger loss.
This is what you were claiming was the situation at United, which is simply false. United's revenue is publicly available and the guidance is the club will have the same next season.
Next season United will be in a good position regarding PSR since the huge outlet that's currently on our books from 3 years ago will drop off.
The estimate is United will be able to post a lost of approximately 120m next season in PSR. When this loss is amortised over the contract length of a player I.E if we spent 100m on Musiala and it's spread over a 5 year deal then it's a 20m loss on PSR.
So we have plenty of room to spend next summer although if we did post a loss of 120m in PSR that would leave us with a budget of around 70/80m PSR for the following season as it's calculated over a 3 year period.
Edon has 1 year on his contract this summer, and Lille are not a club who has the financial ability to turn down 40/50m. See Lenny Yoro.
Kudus has a release clause between 80-90m, you could sign both for close to 120m.
Ok for the last time where is the actual cash coming from to buy these players that you fantasise over, SJR gone on record to say he’s not buying Mbappe he wants to buy the next superstar when the player is young and costs £5-15m not £100-150m, it’s widely known that during the winter transfer period of 23/24 season when ETH wanted to loan Players to solve our injury crisis, we wanted to sign J Felix on loan for a reported £8m loan fee or £4m for 6 months, we couldn’t afford that or even S Reguillon on a £1m loan fee for the second half of the season.
We could not afford these deals NOT because we don’t have a blue chip covenant and have an excellent credit and financial rating, no the real reason was because we simply had no working cash capital and the club had Maxed their credit limit with Bank of America and other Credit suppliers.
When SJR bought into the company he made $300m available in two instalments, one for this summer of $200m(£151m) which £120m was used to pay off he credit card facility to enable the club to have a working capital to facilitate summer transfers. The Management team were told to concentrate on generating more cash through player sales and try to sell the best homegrown players to alleviate the PSR/FSP problems that SJR had inherited. The other £30m was to be used as a down payment to improve the Stadia tunnel and start work on the remodelling of Carrington with another payment of £25m due from December 2024 to March 2025, this was to come from the other $100m(£76m).
The hope is that some of the player sales were to be paid in one instalment, players like Scott And Mason’s deals so that would represent an actual cash injection of £40m to go with the £50m left over from SJR second staged payment in December 2024.
The main reason for buying the players this summer in the way that we did was to take every play we could on instalment plans of 2-3 years. So if the club spent £187m this summer and agreed 3 years terms then they paid probably £70-80m out from the revolving credit, Roger Bell an Ex CFO of INEOS was appointed in May 2024, to oversee and instigate structured cash injections and reduce the financial bottlenecks the club currently has with regard to actual cash available. They have made a significant adjustment on the EBITDA from £145m to £160m.
For Clarity, United wanted to buy Jao Neves, the club was prepared to pay £65m but over 3/4 instalments due to a lack of actual cash, PSG did the deal for £58m because they paid the whole transfer fee upfront in one instalment, this was because United currently DON’T HAVE huge amounts of available cash. Turn that £70m loss from last season into a £70m profit and you gave a situation like you did under Sir Alex where the club never really spent big and just built up huge cash reserves from 2000-2011 and could buy who ever they wanted to?
As well a the £70-80m, United paid in first instalment Payments for our five summer transfers, club has to also pay Agent Fees of 10-20% on all transfers and these normally must be paid upfront during the transfer of player registration from the selling team to the buying team.
Fifteen Percent of £187m is approximately a further £27m of cash that would have had to be paid. Interestingly when you read the latest published article on the accounts it states clearly that there is £30m available of cash to spend on the club’s revolving credit facility which pretty much goes hand in hand with what I’ve been saying. Add the potential £50m of SJR second injection, of which some is also being used for temporary stadium overhauls and we probably have £60m of working cash available in January, that the hierarchy might be hugely reluctant to spend as they are not even sure who their next coach will be!
https://otp.tools.investis.com/clie...ed/usn/usnews-story.aspx?newsid=96174&cid=972
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/56...ted-financial-losses-psr-situation-explained/
Yes we are a juggernaut financially but right now, we are on our second stage of life support where we are being fed through an IV drip small chunks of cash, some through streamlining the business, sone through internal redundancies, some through better investment and some through SJR but for the last time he’s not putting £2-3 billion in the club when he still only owns 27.8% and that’s probably what is needed, if you include the new Stadium.
The cash is coming from the club itself. Look closely at our financial statements, our CFO (cash flow from operations) is typically around +£100M a year, and more like ~£130M before interest payments. That's all free cash flow until you get to player sales.
So we're highly profitable with just the general business, and could spend £100M a year on transfers and still be around break even.
All you have to do is look at this last transfer window. We spent something like £115M net, including 3-4 fairly big money transfers. There's no evidence this kind of spending is unsustainable.
I'm not suggesting we buy Mbappe, that's a strawman. SJR went on record to say that it's not intelligent to just go out and buy Mbappe and that ideally you want to find that player before he costs 100m+. You can't suggest he's looking in the 5-15m range when they just spent 60m on Yoro and were prepared to payout similar for Olise and Braintwaite. + 50m for De Ligt and Ugarte.
Once again you're posting things that are just factually incorrect. United did and do have working cash flow, these records are PUBLISHED PUBLICALLY and lying about these numbers would be illegal for a publicly traded company. The published accounts show that United had 76m in cash reduced to just 74m.
We buy players like this every year and have done so for decades. Tell me when was the last time the players we signed in a summer where all paid up front instead of over 3/4 year installments?
Again you're incorrect on numbers that are publicly available, United’s EBITDA decreased from £155m to £148m, a little better than their Q3 guidance of £140m.
What evidence do you have that PSG paid the whole transfer fee for Neves upfront?
I clicked on the NYT article and can see that you're reciting old information. That article is from July, United published their finances just 2 weeks ago with all the numbers I have outlined above.
We can post up to approximately 120m PSR loss for next season based on the newest accounts.
we spent £115m which is coincidentally the near same amount as the £120m SJR invested to pay off the credit card facility, and this was with 6 CL Matches revenue, how do you think the club will be able to spend £100m per year with transfers without champions league football, it’s not tenable!
Now if we were to be successful on the pitch, and be a constant fixture in the CL every season for the next 4/5 seasons, I might be inclined to agree with you, that INEOS would be able to rapidly turn our depressing financial situation around, we can’t keep doing instalment deals fir players as we probably owe close to £300m already.
Reality Check right Now United sit 14th, yes 14th in the PL and 21st in the 36 team Europa League. The irony is all the other English teams are playing so well, a 5th CL spot will probably be awarded to the EPL while we continues to stink domestic and European Football out!
Ok Jao Neves was under a long Contract, all be it in 500,000 euros per year and had a ridiculous buy out clause of €120m, when you buy out contracts or negotiate a lower fee for a buy out, the buying club always have to pay the full payment upfront plus agent fees unless they negotiate a higher fee like United did with an instalment plan for Zirkzee that cost £3m more than his actual buyout.
PSG report the fee and there is a link to benfica recent financial accounts stating that they had to agree a significantly lower amount to inject necessary cash into the club which had posted a loss of €31m after a profit of €4m from the previous year, United were rumoured to offer more than the €60m plus €10m but requested a 3 year instalment plan, which is what we did with practically every signing this summer. Benfica were desperate for cash and everyone knows that both state owners clubs PSG and City sometimes pay less for players just by their ability to pay large sums of cash instantly!
https://psgpost.com/posts/report-actual-price-psg-paid-for-joao-neves-from-benfica-revealed
It’s not good defending our financial position, it is what it is through years of dereliction from Ed Woodward and the Glazers, you do know that £74m of cash, most of that will be reserved to pay policing, Stewards, European game expenses, travelling expenses, Income tax monthly to HMRC, player wages, staff wages.
It sounds like a lot but in the grand scheme of things it’s really not.
THE Club owes £497m in debt still for the leveraged buy out, £300m+ in future transfer payments and at least £200m in the revolving credit card facility which currently has £30m available from a £300m limit, incidentally this £30m is adjusted as part of that £74m working cash, it’s just moved over as it’s available to be used if required.
The club is £1bn in debt and fans want them to continue to try and sign players at £75- 120m on 3 year payment plans, it’s madness and not Tenable and SJR will not entertain needless spending, especially on players who have no resale value or are not PL proven.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/c07e42ryd0po.amp
It is tenable. I just showed you the club generates £100M+ in free cash flow per year to spend on transfers, including when we're not in UCL (when we are it's more like £150M).
The onus is on you to explain why we can't spend those profits on transfers.