Westminster Politics

Drainy said:
I think she is factually correct on this occasion. The difference being it can be a crime if intended to harass or alarm by being directed at Jewish people by turning up uninvited at locations that you would associate with Jews etc.

Showing general support or solidarity with Palestinians is quite rightly not a crime.

I'd expect the same rules to be enforced turning up at mosques with Israeli or St George's flags etc.

I'd also expect context of whether the flag is countering public pro-israeli speech and other reasonableness factors to be considered before an arrest.
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What like the HQ of major banks and media empires? This is a joke to show up the obsequiousness of that comment

The other day, in my local mosque, the guy praying next the guy next to me had an england top on. Should i have called the police?

Its nonsensical, and raises serious issues around freedom of speech, and also for those on the right who choose to refer to those freedoms quite often.

People should not be allowed to harrass or alarm anyone, without absolute due reason. But weve been told by the likes of Braverman and her allies that people having the right to be offended is all evil WOKE nonsense.

But then again, when it comes to Israel, everything is different.
 
Superden said:
What like the HQ of major banks and media empires? This is a joke to show up the obsequiousness of that comment

The other day, in my local mosque, the guy praying next the guy next to me had an england top on. Should i have called the police?

Its nonsensical, and raises serious issues around freedom of speech, and also for those on the right who choose to refer to those freedoms quite often.

People should not be allowed to harrass or alarm anyone, without absolute due reason. But weve been told by the likes of Braverman and her allies that people having the right to be offended is all evil WOKE nonsense.

But then again, when it comes to Israel, everything is different.
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I worded it more generally because there are places like kosher food places, rather than restricting it to places of worship.

I obviously don't agree with Braverman on much but her letter is correct on the law, to my understanding. Any innocuous symbol or item could become harassing in context, and that isn't the same as saying it's offensive generally.
 
4bars said:
In spain there are plenty of high speed train sections that are useless and that this money (a lot) could be better spend on regional projects or to unite other big cities like valencia and barcelona or the mediterranean corridor. But as in spain everything is madrid centric like london

In UK, a great network (not talking specifically of HS) that could unite the north, could be more beneficial for the north? Talking without knowing UKs reality
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Saw this today about the popularity of Spanish high speed rail and was reminded of this post. Thoughts?

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...tugEqDggAKgYICjCXqnsw37MJ&utm_content=bullets
 
Red in STL said:
I'm guessing about 1 in 10 million people might actually know what it was, I'm in the latter!
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I'll be honest - the only thing I could remember about it was that it didn't have any of the Palestinian colours in it!
 
The Corinthian said:
I'll be honest - the only thing I could remember about it was that it didn't have any of the Palestinian colours in it!
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So basically, if you chose to wave it around no one would know what the feck it was!
 
11101 said:
Saw this today about the popularity of Spanish high speed rail and was reminded of this post. Thoughts?

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...tugEqDggAKgYICjCXqnsw37MJ&utm_content=bullets
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HS rail is great. Everybody should have access to it if possible but money is limited.

In the article she speaks for example of connections Madrid to Barcelona, Valencia and Seville and this makes sense. The density allows to have full trains, competition among companies that brings the price of the tickets down. By the way, 19 euros a ticket van be found but is not near the usual. Still very affordable and much better than the plane that takes longer (wait and flight) and you still have to go from the airport to the city center

Now, does it worth it to spend money in HS that connect less populated areas? Does the HS network needs stops in 1000 inhabitants towns because they are in the way? the stations are very expensive (expropriations, buildings safety for a HS train stop) and stopping there defeats the purpose of the HS. They don't deserve it? well, I want a station in front of my house but is not feasible. Is that money well invested in this small cities or towns? or maybe it would be better to spend that money in regional trains and other public transportation that vertebrates the region?

As personal, not because its me me me (because I don't even leave there) but because I know it. the regional train that connects my small city (and goes through a quite dense area through towns, small cities, bigger cities and universities) to Barcelona takes 10 minutes longer than +100 years ago. infrastructure is poor, schedules fails, sometimes they stops for tens of minutes and a few hours, trains crumbles etc... And is used by millions of trips a year for workers and students to commute. Would that money be better spend in this types of transportation? I am not saying in my area as BCN already have HS, but there are equivalents areas that might need a similar improvement to their existing public transportation.

In my opinion a country that is bigger than Germany with half the population does not make sense that have 3 times more HS train kilometers. And many other comparisons. Also, Spain is empty. There are big cities and the coast line and the rest has little population. HS makes sense to unite big cities. the average Joe doesn't need this long connections very often. As much as you might love madrid, you will not go to live to Valencia, Seville or Barcelona. All at +2 hours.

Another part that doesn't make sense is the centralization of the rail to the capital. It makes sense to have connections from Barcelona (that goes through Zaragoza another big city), Valencia and Seville. But the bigger amount of population is along the mediterranian coast and this population would benefit much more of HS than other areas that sure, they welcome the HS but they would benefit more of regional projects.

This is not only my opinion but what I had been reading along the years. Limited resources should be spend smarter, not to show off. Another one is the building of airports in Spain. Again more than Germany and having at some point a flight from Lleida to Barcelona that took 30 minutes (+ waiting + train to the center) while a bus line and HS train takes you a bit over 1 hour. One of the biggest airports in Spain never opened and so others. This big infrastructures in Spain reeks of corruption and also traffic of favors among the local and provincial authorities with the central government

But yes HS is awesome everybody should have a station near
 
4bars said:
HS rail is great. Everybody should have access to it if possible but money is limited.

In the article she speaks for example of connections Madrid to Barcelona, Valencia and Seville and this makes sense. The density allows to have full trains, competition among companies that brings the price of the tickets down. By the way, 19 euros a ticket van be found but is not near the usual. Still very affordable and much better than the plane that takes longer (wait and flight) and you still have to go from the airport to the city center

Now, does it worth it to spend money in HS that connect less populated areas? Does the HS network needs stops in 1000 inhabitants towns because they are in the way? the stations are very expensive (expropriations, buildings safety for a HS train stop) and stopping there defeats the purpose of the HS. They don't deserve it? well, I want a station in front of my house but is not feasible. Is that money well invested in this small cities or towns? or maybe it would be better to spend that money in regional trains and other public transportation that vertebrates the region?

As personal, not because its me me me (because I don't even leave there) but because I know it. the regional train that connects my small city (and goes through a quite dense area through towns, small cities, bigger cities and universities) to Barcelona takes 10 minutes longer than +100 years ago. infrastructure is poor, schedules fails, sometimes they stops for tens of minutes and a few hours, trains crumbles etc... And is used by millions of trips a year for workers and students to commute. Would that money be better spend in this types of transportation? I am not saying in my area as BCN already have HS, but there are equivalents areas that might need a similar improvement to their existing public transportation.

In my opinion a country that is bigger than Germany with half the population does not make sense that have 3 times more HS train kilometers. And many other comparisons. Also, Spain is empty. There are big cities and the coast line and the rest has little population. HS makes sense to unite big cities. the average Joe doesn't need this long connections very often. As much as you might love madrid, you will not go to live to Valencia, Seville or Barcelona. All at +2 hours.

Another part that doesn't make sense is the centralization of the rail to the capital. It makes sense to have connections from Barcelona (that goes through Zaragoza another big city), Valencia and Seville. But the bigger amount of population is along the mediterranian coast and this population would benefit much more of HS than other areas that sure, they welcome the HS but they would benefit more of regional projects.

This is not only my opinion but what I had been reading along the years. Limited resources should be spend smarter, not to show off. Another one is the building of airports in Spain. Again more than Germany and having at some point a flight from Lleida to Barcelona that took 30 minutes (+ waiting + train to the center) while a bus line and HS train takes you a bit over 1 hour. One of the biggest airports in Spain never opened and so others. This big infrastructures in Spain reeks of corruption and also traffic of favors among the local and provincial authorities with the central government

But yes HS is awesome everybody should have a station near
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So what you're saying is high speed rail is great but don't forget regional lines. Thankfully the UK has a pretty good regional network that would be 10 times better if capacity were freed up a little.

None of it matters anyway as we're getting nothing. Since the announcement all the promised projects are turning out to be bollocks anyway.
 
11101 said:
So what you're saying is high speed rail is great but don't forget regional lines. Thankfully the UK has a pretty good regional network that would be 10 times better if capacity were freed up a little.

None of it matters anyway as we're getting nothing. Since the announcement all the promised projects are turning out to be bollocks anyway.
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The problem in the UK (the North at least) is the connection within the North. There are good links to London but the Manchester to Leeds line belongs in a museum. I don’t know about Spain but, in Italy at least, there are good links between most of the the main cities, even if centred around Milan and Rome. It shouldn’t be too difficult to have a high speed link from Liverpool to Leeds with connections going north to Glasgow, Edinburgh and Newcastle and south to Birmingham, Bristol and London.
 
MoskvaRed said:
The problem in the UK (the North at least) is the connection within the North. There are good links to London but the Manchester to Leeds line belongs in a museum. I don’t know about Spain but, in Italy at least, there are good links between most of the the main cities, even if centred around Milan and Rome. It shouldn’t be too difficult to have a high speed link from Liverpool to Leeds with connections going north to Glasgow, Edinburgh and Newcastle and south to Birmingham, Bristol and London.
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The original plan was for almost all of that.

There are gaps in the Italian network but they are quickly working to plug them, and surprisingly considering how inefficient most things are they force the construction through any nimby opposition. The UK needs to sort its infrastructure spend out before it becomes uninvestable.
 
11101 said:
So what you're saying is high speed rail is great but don't forget regional lines. Thankfully the UK has a pretty good regional network that would be 10 times better if capacity were freed up a little.

None of it matters anyway as we're getting nothing. Since the announcement all the promised projects are turning out to be bollocks anyway.
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Definitely UK should have more HS trains. But again, is centralization to london the best expenditure for the north? What about Liverpool - Manchester -Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh-Glasgow? Probably Manchester - Birmingham-London have pretty good connections

But with UK density and big cities, they should have both lines. Specially compared to Spain. HS train from Edinburgh-Leeds-Shefied - (something) - London seems a no brainer. or variant Manchester- Birmingham - London and then vertebrate the North with another one
 
The reason why HS2 costs have spiralled is because the UK is a kleptocracy. Everyone up the food chain has to get their cut, just like the mafia. Just look at what the government did during covid - enriched their mates, many of whom had no experience of providing PPE and suchlike. It's a corrupt state where the people at the top leech off the population and siphon money offshore and into property. They all go to the same schools, they are ensconced in the upper echelons of every part of society, and they gaslight everyone into thinking we don't need human rights and we are being overrun with invaders in dinghies. It's a binfire of a country.
 
SalfordRed18 said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67087840

Career suicide or more to it?
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Regardless of what it means personally, the SNP turning into a shambles is the last thing the Tories need anyway as they’re a third party that split the vote of the centre to left.

If Labour are on for a majority at the next election then perhaps the Tories would rather Starmer had a supermajority and was essentially given enough rope to hang himself over the next 5 years. If Labour had a slim majority and either relied on the SNP for votes or worse, the SNP somehow found themselves as the opposition party and could use question time effectively to narrate the discourse then that would be a worse scenario for the Tories as they’re no longer in the conversation.
 
Badunk said:
The reason why HS2 costs have spiralled is because the UK is a kleptocracy. Everyone up the food chain has to get their cut, just like the mafia. Just look at what the government did during covid - enriched their mates, many of whom had no experience of providing PPE and suchlike. It's a corrupt state where the people at the top leech off the population and siphon money offshore and into property. They all go to the same schools, they are ensconced in the upper echelons of every part of society, and they gaslight everyone into thinking we don't need human rights and we are being overrun with invaders in dinghies. It's a binfire of a country.
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Preach brother. We should have much stricter guidelines for our Politicians and allow them to be held to a proper standard.

The lying and corruption should be held accountable. If you're caught, that's it, you're career is done.
 
RedSky said:
Preach brother. We should have much stricter guidelines for our Politicians and allow them to be held to a proper standard.

The lying and corruption should be held accountable. If you're caught, that's it, you're career is done.
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Labour have said there will be an inquiry into it if they are elected haven't they?
 
Drainy said:
I worded it more generally because there are places like kosher food places, rather than restricting it to places of worship.

I obviously don't agree with Braverman on much but her letter is correct on the law, to my understanding. Any innocuous symbol or item could become harassing in context, and that isn't the same as saying it's offensive generally.
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Sorry, I'm clearly being dumb, the Palestine flag could be offensive so it cannot be shown in public?

That's mighty handy.
 
RedSky said:
Preach brother. We should have much stricter guidelines for our Politicians and allow them to be held to a proper standard.

The lying and corruption should be held accountable. If you're caught, that's it, you're career is done.
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I work with contractors and big companies and no sooner is there a sniff of Government funds available, the daily rates requested leap by 30%. The workers, the agents, the MROs, the EPCs, the consultants, the vendors all spike their prices.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Sorry, I'm clearly being dumb, the Palestine flag could be offensive so it cannot be shown in public?

That's mighty handy.
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Nah, if you approach people who you believe are Jewish it may be considered a crime.

Like if you wear a galatasaray shirt at Elland Road, something that is entirely within your rights to do can become harassing or alarming. You wear it in Leeds city centre, could be unwise but likely legal, anywhere else in the country completely innocuous.

As I said if someone is speaking out on behalf of Israel and you brought out the flag, I'd also say that it's likely to be ok because it's countering speech. If it's harassing private individuals, this isn't America, we don't have the 1st amendment here.
 
RedSky said:
Preach brother. We should have much stricter guidelines for our Politicians and allow them to be held to a proper standard.

The lying and corruption should be held accountable. If you're caught, that's it, you're career is done.
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Yes, Hopefully the politicians will put into law the transparency needed to scrutinize them and make them accountable. Also I hope they pass a law where they force themselves to not be able to have another job while in parliament and so on

I see that happening
 
Drainy said:
Nah, if you approach people who you believe are Jewish it may be considered a crime.

Like if you wear a galatasaray shirt at Elland Road, something that is entirely within your rights to do can become harassing or alarming. You wear it in Leeds city centre, could be unwise but likely legal, anywhere else in the country completely innocuous.

As I said if someone is speaking out on behalf of Israel and you brought out the flag, I'd also say that it's likely to be ok because it's countering speech. If it's harassing private individuals, this isn't America, we don't have the 1st amendment here.
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I don’t think you’re saying this as explicitly as it’s written. But we should be very clear that there are plenty of Jewish people, and non Jewish Israeli folks, that are pro Palestine.

The Palestine flag shouldn’t be banned. Your Galatasaray shirt in Leeds analogy was spot on.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
I don’t think you’re saying this as explicitly as it’s written. But we should be very clear that there are plenty of Jewish people, and non Jewish Israeli folks, that are pro Palestine.

The Palestine flag shouldn’t be banned. Your Galatasaray shirt in Leeds analogy was spot on.
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Yes of course
 
SalfordRed18 said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67087840

Career suicide or more to it?
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An MP defecting from the SNP to the Tories, in a constituency (including its predecessor before boundary changes) where the Tories haven't finished better than 3rd place in since the 70s, and still insisting that she wants independence despite joining a party vehemently opposed to another Indy Ref, really is a huge gift for Labour. Starmer and Anas Sarwar must have been laughing gleefully when they heard the news.

I can imagine that many people in East Kilbride, will not be happy at being represented by a Tory MP.


The SNP collapse (surely Labour are on track to win at least 20 seats or so in Scotland at the next GE), also means that the Tories won't be able to successfully repeat their previously strategy of warning voters in England about the 'horrors' of a Labour government propped by the SNP. It was a major reason why Cameron won a majority in 2015 (vote for Ed Miliband and you'll get Alex Salmond).
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
I don’t think you’re saying this as explicitly as it’s written. But we should be very clear that there are plenty of Jewish people, and non Jewish Israeli folks, that are pro Palestine.

The Palestine flag shouldn’t be banned. Your Galatasaray shirt in Leeds analogy was spot on.
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i lived in leeds for a while, in headingley and often wore a utd top and had no problems when either the cricket or rugby was on, and thered be thousands of leeds / yorkshire fans about.
i wouldnt ever ever dare wear it when there was football on in the pubs though.
so its a bit more nuance....
 
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