You can think they're both cnuts. One being worse than the other shouldn't really offer too much comfort to those stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not holding the future leader of the country to account doesn't make you clever, it makes you complicit. Demand better from everyone, you owe nobody unquestionable loyalty. Turning a blind eye to one person's lies and u-turns because you prefer them to the other guy isn't the adult behaviour you think it is.
Westminster Politics
- Thread starter altodevil
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You can think they're both cnuts. One being worse than the other shouldn't really offer too much comfort to those stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not holding the future leader of the country to account doesn't make you clever, it makes you complicit. Demand better from everyone, you owe nobody unquestionable loyalty. Turning a blind eye to one person's lies and u-turns because you prefer them to the other guy isn't the adult behaviour you think it is.
The Tories are so toxic right now that Starmer would still be leading in the polls without trying to emulate their every policy. I don't know why we're pretending the only way Labour can win the next election is by becoming the Tories but just without corruption.
Because it seems large swathes of this country vote for these utter ghouls, not because of loyalty but because of niche issues or personal politics, rarely ideology. Honestly, speaking to the average voter will make you lament democracy, most people are uninformed, thick, and fairly malicious.
Combine all of this with a hostile right-wing press who want to leap on any policy proposal you put forward to these dimwitted masses, lambasting you as out of touch, profligate with the nation's finances, a saboteur, or that you will open the borders to terrorists, etc. What can you do other than not expose your policy positions?
Seriously, the lack of political instinct on "the left" really illuminates why they suck at winning elections and become perpetual campaigners. More comfortable jostling for position for their own benefit than actually obtaining power to be able to legislate. You need to win and the country, so far as I can see it, has large swathes of it that are racist, bigoted, transphobic, xenophobic, despise JSO campaigners, ULEZ, etc.
If the more vocal critiques of the left had their way, they'd promote policies consistently that poll horrifically with the public but are popular at demos and rallies and then act all confused/blame someone else when the population of middle england, flag shaggers rejects you at the ballot box.
There is a lot of truth in this unfortunately. I've said it before on here but my brother wouldn't countenance voting for Labour at the last election because "they want to give free broadband to everyone".
Is being transphobic popular though? It is with some horrible cnuts for sure but I really don't think they're the majority, and even many of the minority won't rank it near the top of their list of things they're worried about when inflation is rampant, energy prices a stitch up, public services are fecked and we're constantly getting robbed by our own government.
Immigration is genuinely something many people care about because they see it as affecting their ability to access services and get well paid jobs. That is reasonable although wrong - public services would be a lot shitter without immigration in fact. It's something that should be addressed by improving public services and investing in the economies of deprived areas, not by cowering away from any sort of fight.
Precisely, trouble with politics is most policies that benefit people are unpopular and you're sharing them in an inherently unfair space (hyper-capitalist, unequal right-wing media, etc).There is a lot of truth in this unfortunately. I've said it before on here but my brother wouldn't countenance voting for Labour at the last election because "they want to give free broadband to everyone".
Well, the Tories will just tell people that Labour will raise their taxes to pay for the broken state and working people will hate this (rightly) because they are at the end of the rope.
There is a Facebook friend of mine. He is had steady work for a number of years but gave it up as he couldn't be arsed and spent a few years on the dole/living off his wife. He then scraped together the cash to buy the lease on a shop. He basically ponsed off people to get the shop fitted out, offering goods in exchange. He is a blagger and would batter people down claiming how great a mate he was.There is a lot of truth in this unfortunately. I've said it before on here but my brother wouldn't countenance voting for Labour at the last election because "they want to give free broadband to everyone".
He despises socialism and is constantly moaning about people getting something for nothing..
Usually the accusation is a confession
I don’t disagree with you, but unfortunately in the political system we have, there are two electable PMs - Sunak & Starmer.
I’m appalled at the roll-backs and u-turns Labour are making but ultimately it’s a binary choice for PM between the two:
- one who made millions taking advantage of the last economic crash and appears to be just as happy with cronyism as Boris Johnson
- one who isn’t a politician really and is doing a bad job of offering anything different policy wise, but offers an expectation of competence in office (rather than Sunak who for example claimed his kids inspired his climate change policies before flipping and doing the exact opposite).
I am a Labour member and part time activistUsually the accusation is a confession
I meant your mate who scrounges but hates scroungers.
So you pull up your big boy pants and go after the Tories for being liars and thieves. Which they demonstrably are. The last manifesto threw out all kinds of random policies - the broadband one being a peak airy fairytale sounding example. It doesn't mean you can't have actual policies though, just keep them limited in number, sensible sounding and fully costed. The Tory mask has slipped even further since then as well.
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The fact is Labour were leading by a huge margin before the latest swings to the right from Starmer. It instantly disproves your points because they were already baked in so there was no need.
People will vote Labour because they're not the Tories. Yes it makes sense not to go with any extreme policies but people had already made peace with Labour traditional values even if they didn't like them.
Ahh with you. Yeah, he is bang at it. I suspect he is under declaring at his shop at the very least.
Yes because polling isn't fickle and swings massively depending on different factors.
Now that the SNP have imploded and also shat the bed (which would be an explosion I suppose?) I really only have the option of voting for Labour. I'm not entirely happy with it but it's definitely not a case of "at least they're not as bad as the Tories". They're far from perfect but they're not at all close to the Tories.
I have yet to hear a Labour politician proudly claim that they're proud to send toddlers to a detention centre because they escaped with their parents from a war torn country. I have yet to hear a Labour politician tell me that the facts I can see with my own eyes are false, that their vested interests in businesses they help fleece the taxpayer during COVID aren't in the public interest, that the independent investigations they failed to quash that show they committed dishonourable acts are just a smear campaign, that treating our fellow humans with respect is "woke".
I haven't heard a Labour politician state that I'm ruining the country because I want a fair pay rise after years of sub-inflation increases (or pay freezes in some cases), whilst simultaneously protecting their rich mates from blame for squirreling away massive profits year on year and driving inflation to eye watering levels in the middle of a crisis. I haven't heard a Labour politician say that I should keep more than I need, and feck anyone who could desperately could do with just a little bit of what I have to feed their families.
I haven't seen a Labour politician bring the House of Commons down to the level of a vicious playground, breeding an echo chamber of hate-filled remarks that demonise and denigrate normal working people who are guilty of simply being different from whatever a "normal" person was twenty years ago.
Labour and the Tories are the same?
I have yet to hear a Labour politician proudly claim that they're proud to send toddlers to a detention centre because they escaped with their parents from a war torn country. I have yet to hear a Labour politician tell me that the facts I can see with my own eyes are false, that their vested interests in businesses they help fleece the taxpayer during COVID aren't in the public interest, that the independent investigations they failed to quash that show they committed dishonourable acts are just a smear campaign, that treating our fellow humans with respect is "woke".
I haven't heard a Labour politician state that I'm ruining the country because I want a fair pay rise after years of sub-inflation increases (or pay freezes in some cases), whilst simultaneously protecting their rich mates from blame for squirreling away massive profits year on year and driving inflation to eye watering levels in the middle of a crisis. I haven't heard a Labour politician say that I should keep more than I need, and feck anyone who could desperately could do with just a little bit of what I have to feed their families.
I haven't seen a Labour politician bring the House of Commons down to the level of a vicious playground, breeding an echo chamber of hate-filled remarks that demonise and denigrate normal working people who are guilty of simply being different from whatever a "normal" person was twenty years ago.
Labour and the Tories are the same?
Hashtag ownthelibs
Labour urges Suella Braverman to ramp up asylum seeker deportations
Labour has urged the government to speed up the process of deporting failed asylum seekers and criticised "12 years of Tory failure" in the immigration system.
Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, said the government needed to clear a backlog removals aimed at people "who have not got a right to be here".
Asked whether she welcomed the Home Secretary's plan to ban the asylum claims, Labour's Ms Reeves told Sky News:
"The problem is the government are not deporting people today, even when their claims have failed.
"What the government need to do is get a grip of the system, process claims quicker, and ensure people who have not got a right to be here are sent home.
"That is not happening today and that is 12 years of Tory failure."
She added: “The Conservatives have been in government for 12 years now and illegal immigration is on the increase, so this is a problem that's been made under their watch.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eves-immigrant-suella-braverman-b2195904.html
Keir Starmer has said a 19% pay rise for nurses is unaffordable for the government.
Kirsty told him that while MPs have had a near 28% salary increase over the last decade, she has only seen an uplift of two or three percent leaving her struggling and ‘actually losing money’.
Keir replied: “Firstly, thank you for what you do as a nurse, I know how tough it is. My wife works in the NHS so this is a discussion we have almost every night so I do know how hard it is.
“I want to see nurses paid well, under the last Labour government we had two things: fair pay for workers and we didn’t have strikes. Now here we are a few days before Christmas facing the possibility of a strike on Thursday.”
While he confirmed that he wants to see this issue resolved, he added: “I think 19% is more than can be afforded by the government,”
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-sta...or-nurses-is-unaffordable-for-the-government/
Sorry.
So he acknowledges it has a lot to do with energy bills, but wont do anything about their record revenues
Labour urges Suella Braverman to ramp up asylum seeker deportations
Labour has urged the government to speed up the process of deporting failed asylum seekers and criticised "12 years of Tory failure" in the immigration system.
Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, said the government needed to clear a backlog removals aimed at people "who have not got a right to be here".
Asked whether she welcomed the Home Secretary's plan to ban the asylum claims, Labour's Ms Reeves told Sky News:
"The problem is the government are not deporting people today, even when their claims have failed.
"What the government need to do is get a grip of the system, process claims quicker, and ensure people who have not got a right to be here are sent home.
"That is not happening today and that is 12 years of Tory failure."
She added: “The Conservatives have been in government for 12 years now and illegal immigration is on the increase, so this is a problem that's been made under their watch.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eves-immigrant-suella-braverman-b2195904.html
Keir Starmer has said a 19% pay rise for nurses is unaffordable for the government.
Kirsty told him that while MPs have had a near 28% salary increase over the last decade, she has only seen an uplift of two or three percent leaving her struggling and ‘actually losing money’.
Keir replied: “Firstly, thank you for what you do as a nurse, I know how tough it is. My wife works in the NHS so this is a discussion we have almost every night so I do know how hard it is.
“I want to see nurses paid well, under the last Labour government we had two things: fair pay for workers and we didn’t have strikes. Now here we are a few days before Christmas facing the possibility of a strike on Thursday.”
While he confirmed that he wants to see this issue resolved, he added: “I think 19% is more than can be afforded by the government,”
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-sta...or-nurses-is-unaffordable-for-the-government/
Sorry.
Dammit.
Yeah it’s very grim. I mean the Labour Party membership is million miles better than the Tory party and if Labour winning the next means the Tories getting destroyed than it might be a positive.
But overall I can’t see any massive difference’s in policy between the two parties.
Labour urges Suella Braverman to ramp up asylum seeker deportations
Labour has urged the government to speed up the process of deporting failed asylum seekers and criticised "12 years of Tory failure" in the immigration system.
Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, said the government needed to clear a backlog removals aimed at people "who have not got a right to be here".
Asked whether she welcomed the Home Secretary's plan to ban the asylum claims, Labour's Ms Reeves told Sky News:
"The problem is the government are not deporting people today, even when their claims have failed.
"What the government need to do is get a grip of the system, process claims quicker, and ensure people who have not got a right to be here are sent home.
"That is not happening today and that is 12 years of Tory failure."
She added: “The Conservatives have been in government for 12 years now and illegal immigration is on the increase, so this is a problem that's been made under their watch.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eves-immigrant-suella-braverman-b2195904.html
Keir Starmer has said a 19% pay rise for nurses is unaffordable for the government.
Kirsty told him that while MPs have had a near 28% salary increase over the last decade, she has only seen an uplift of two or three percent leaving her struggling and ‘actually losing money’.
Keir replied: “Firstly, thank you for what you do as a nurse, I know how tough it is. My wife works in the NHS so this is a discussion we have almost every night so I do know how hard it is.
“I want to see nurses paid well, under the last Labour government we had two things: fair pay for workers and we didn’t have strikes. Now here we are a few days before Christmas facing the possibility of a strike on Thursday.”
While he confirmed that he wants to see this issue resolved, he added: “I think 19% is more than can be afforded by the government,”
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-sta...or-nurses-is-unaffordable-for-the-government/
Sorry.
Sorry but this isn't comparable
Labour urges Suella Braverman to ramp up asylum seeker deportations
Labour has urged the government to speed up the process of deporting failed asylum seekers and criticised "12 years of Tory failure" in the immigration system.
Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, said the government needed to clear a backlog removals aimed at people "who have not got a right to be here".
Asked whether she welcomed the Home Secretary's plan to ban the asylum claims, Labour's Ms Reeves told Sky News:
"The problem is the government are not deporting people today, even when their claims have failed.
"What the government need to do is get a grip of the system, process claims quicker, and ensure people who have not got a right to be here are sent home.
"That is not happening today and that is 12 years of Tory failure."
She added: “The Conservatives have been in government for 12 years now and illegal immigration is on the increase, so this is a problem that's been made under their watch.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eves-immigrant-suella-braverman-b2195904.html
Keir Starmer has said a 19% pay rise for nurses is unaffordable for the government.
Kirsty told him that while MPs have had a near 28% salary increase over the last decade, she has only seen an uplift of two or three percent leaving her struggling and ‘actually losing money’.
Keir replied: “Firstly, thank you for what you do as a nurse, I know how tough it is. My wife works in the NHS so this is a discussion we have almost every night so I do know how hard it is.
“I want to see nurses paid well, under the last Labour government we had two things: fair pay for workers and we didn’t have strikes. Now here we are a few days before Christmas facing the possibility of a strike on Thursday.”
While he confirmed that he wants to see this issue resolved, he added: “I think 19% is more than can be afforded by the government,”
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-sta...or-nurses-is-unaffordable-for-the-government/
Sorry.
Sad but true.
The only benefit of Labour was the fact it was a broad church. But Starmer's purges are putting an end to that.Yeah it’s very grim. I mean the Labour Party membership is million miles better than the Tory party and if Labour winning the next means the Tories getting destroyed than it might be a positive.
But overall I can’t see any massive difference’s in policy between the two parties.
There is some truth to it. Keir definitely is a Tory in Labour clothing. I'd say Raynor and the rest of the party are more 'Labour' than Tory though (this is where I set myself up for @Sweet Square to prove me wrong).
For the UK, it'll be an undoubtedly positive thing for us to get rid of the Tories (as oppose to us championing Labour).
The first example, Reeves calling for failed asylum seekers to be deported quicker. That is not a Tory policy, it is just a method of exposing Tory incompetence
I tend to agree.
But I am seriously concerned about Starmers authoritarian approach. He doesn't listen to and consult people with views that differ from his.
I genuinely fear what he could impose on the country if he becomes PM.
Despite this, I agree that Tories out is essential for this country.
It's reinforcing the prejudicial message championed by the right wing, without challenge or caveat. There is plenty more wrong with the Tory approach to asylum seekers than not being the failed ones out quickly enough.
My concern with Starmer is that he’s going to pander to the right wing press, achieve nothing progressive, alienate the Labour membership and be a one term Government as the right wing press betrays hun, chews him up and spits him out at the first opportunity.
He’s absolutely terrified of committing to anything which could be deemed to be speculating to accumulate. Kwarteng’s abomination of a budget is living rent free in his head because now a true “growth” budget will be sullied by the effects that budget had, ignoring that Kwarteng’s version of a growth budget was nothing but a hand out to the richest in the county whereas a progressive growth budget could put money in the hands of those that need it, support small businesses and invest heavily in the country’s decaying infrastructure and actually achieve growth and begin to get us out of the mess we are in.
Tory government without the corruption is better but it isn’t enough and we should demand more. Forgetting the damage Brexit has caused, we’re at such a difficult moment in history with climate change and jobs beginning to disappear to AI, we desperately need imagination and the bravery to impose radical policy. The idea we just need to tighten our belt and see the next decade through is so so dangerous. We’re going to be so far behind at that point with a major reduction in quality of life.
He’s absolutely terrified of committing to anything which could be deemed to be speculating to accumulate. Kwarteng’s abomination of a budget is living rent free in his head because now a true “growth” budget will be sullied by the effects that budget had, ignoring that Kwarteng’s version of a growth budget was nothing but a hand out to the richest in the county whereas a progressive growth budget could put money in the hands of those that need it, support small businesses and invest heavily in the country’s decaying infrastructure and actually achieve growth and begin to get us out of the mess we are in.
Tory government without the corruption is better but it isn’t enough and we should demand more. Forgetting the damage Brexit has caused, we’re at such a difficult moment in history with climate change and jobs beginning to disappear to AI, we desperately need imagination and the bravery to impose radical policy. The idea we just need to tighten our belt and see the next decade through is so so dangerous. We’re going to be so far behind at that point with a major reduction in quality of life.
I don't think it is prejudicial to remove failed asylum seekers quickly. Labour highlighted that this is a symptom of a broken Asylum system. We wouldn't have the hotel usage or be trying to herd them onto death ships if we processed applications and appeals in a timely manner and got asylum seekers settled properly or, if they don't meet the criteria, removed.
This is pretty much my line of thinking too.
I'd add that Starmer and his team are not helping themselves (or society) by letting the Overton window shift right in real-time. It far harder to drag it left in this country with our rabid right-wing press having their claws firmly embedded in society. If he lets it drift too far then he could end fighting a GE campaign that's to the right of any of the past four Tory campaigns. The Tories would absolutely love this of course. If they can't win power, force your opposition to adopt your policies and ready the ground for them to re-take power 4/5 years later.
It's all very depressing.
Have I understood UK politics correct here?
Things you can blame for the state of the UK economy:
Things you can blame for the state of the UK economy:
- The war in Ukraine
- The pandemic
- Woke leftists
- Gordon Brown
- The party who's been in charge for over a decade
- Fiscal policy
- Brexit
Yep, that's pretty accurate.
Nailed it.
You've just qualified for immigration
I'm talking about the broader Tory policies on asylum.
A) is overblown as a major contribution to the problems in our society when it's not, austerity caused most of the problems we attribute to asylum seekers
B) there is no legal way for many asylum seekers to gain asylum in this country, let alone get rejected!