Westminster Politics

[Cheesy]

I'd say ideology is stupid.

@Cheesy

I think centrism should have evidence based policies and lean towards realpolitik and pragmatism. As such, policies could come from all points on the political spectrum.

Well...sure, but the problem is that evidence-based policies inherently involve some level of ideology, because politicians on different ends of the spectrum will take difference things from evidence when it's presented to them.

A Tory will look at the austerity implemented between 2010-15 and argue it was necessary for the improvement of the economy and the reduction of the deficit. A leftist will look at the same policies and argue that said policies were extraordinarily detrimental and damaging to ordinary working people. Technically both can be right. A centrist can hypothetically share sympathies with both sides, but at some point they've probably got to come to a generalised viewpoint...because if they don't then they don't believe in anything. Evidence is a good starting point when implementing policy (and should be useful in changing one's mind) but politics itself is ultimately, to some extent, ideological.

The problem with solely basing politics on things like pragmatism and realpolitik is that, again, you ultimately end up not really believing in anything except (presumably) maintaining a comfortable status quo. Which only really works until that status quo falls apart. And I'd argue that even ideological parties end up engaging in an extensive level of pragmatism and realpolitik anyway, even if they like to claim otherwise.

 

[Sweet Square]

… this is an ideology

 

[Ducklegs]

If you're a well off socialist you're insincere/a hypocrite. If you're a poor socialist you're just jealous.

Basically you're just not allowed to be socialist.

I dunno, you can respect a true socialist, someone who lives by and according to their convictions.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

… this is an ideology

I walked into that one in fairness.

Well...sure, but the problem is that evidence-based policies inherently involve some level of ideology, because politicians on different ends of the spectrum will take difference things from evidence when it's presented to them.

A Tory will look at the austerity implemented between 2010-15 and argue it was necessary for the improvement of the economy and the reduction of the deficit. A leftist will look at the same policies and argue that said policies were extraordinarily detrimental and damaging to ordinary working people. Technically both can be right. A centrist can hypothetically share sympathies with both sides, but at some point they've probably got to come to a generalised viewpoint...because if they don't then they don't believe in anything. Evidence is a good starting point when implementing policy (and should be useful in changing one's mind) but politics itself is ultimately, to some extent, ideological.

The problem with solely basing politics on things like pragmatism and realpolitik is that, again, you ultimately end up not really believing in anything except (presumably) maintaining a comfortable status quo. Which only really works until that status quo falls apart. And I'd argue that even ideological parties end up engaging in an extensive level of pragmatism and realpolitik anyway, even if they like to claim otherwise.

A lot of good logic there Cheesy. You have a clarity of thought and expression.

I guess that you would need some foundational beliefs from which to build.

 

[Drifter]

Joseph Russo quits: Second Change UK candidate resigns in 24 hours

Quite a racist lot these Change UK , considering part of the reason they left was anti Semitism.

 

[Sweet Square]

Change UK MP's - We are leaving the Labour party because its racist

Also Change UK MP's -





It almost like these people don't care about anti racism at all.

 

[jimmyb2000]

Tory voters consider social security and policies aimed at helping the less well off to be bribes encouraging them to vote. Not one of the fundamentals of a civilised society.

I know quite a few Tory voters so I asked them this very question:

Do you consider social security and policies aimed at helping the less well off to be a fundamental of a civilised society or a bribe to encourage them to vote?

Every single one of them said it was a fundamental of a civilised society.

Out of interest have you had many discussions with Tory voters regarding this issue or is it a sentiment that you've ascribed to them because you think that's how they think?

 

[Mogget]

I know quite a few Tory voters so I asked them this very question:

Do you consider social security and policies aimed at helping the less well off to be a fundamental of a civilised society or a bribe to encourage them to vote?

Every single one of them said it was a fundamental of a civilised society.

Out of interest have you had many discussions with Tory voters regarding this issue or is it a sentiment that you've ascribed to them because you think that's how they think?

I was being facetious. I try my best to avoid talking to someone once I find out they're a Tory voter.

 

[jimmyb2000]

I was being facetious. I try my best to avoid talking to someone once I find out they're a Tory voter.

Ok. That makes sense.

I'm not a Tory voter by the way. Haven't voted since Screaming Lord Sutch died.

 

[Smores]

Change UK MP's - We are leaving the Labour party because its racist

Also Change UK MP's -





It almost like these people don't care about anti racism at all.

i almost feel sorry for them how badly they've managed to screw everything up, this is a woman who praised Tommy Robinsons book and had a twitter rant about M&S selling hijabs ffs. Her views have been endorsed by UKIPs Batten now

 

[Sweet Square]

I know quite a few Tory voters so I asked them this very question:

Do you consider social security and policies aimed at helping the less well off to be a fundamental of a civilised society or a bribe to encourage them to vote?

Every single one of them said it was a fundamental of a civilised society.

Out of interest have you had many discussions with Tory voters regarding this issue or is it a sentiment that you've ascribed to them because you think that's how they think?

Did ask them after why do they constantly vote to stop these type of policies ?

i almost feel sorry for them how badly they've managed to screw everything up, this is a woman who praised Tommy Robinsons book ffs. Her views have been endorsed by UKIPs Batten now

Didn't even get one mention last night in the BBC interview with Chuka

 

[Sweet Square]

The hard-centre is racist

https://www.patreon.com/posts/26357879

 

[SteveJ]

Nice lady, that Mrs May...

Immigration: Home Office faces legal action over English test cheating claims

The Home Office is facing over 300 court of appeal legal challenges from foreign students who believe they were wrongly accused of cheating in English tests, and dozens more cases are pending in immigration tribunals.

The Guardian has learned that a special team overseen by the Home Office was established in January 2017 to deal with the growing backlog of legal actions related to a Home Office decision in 2014 to revoke or curtail the visas of around 34,000 students whom they accused of cheating in a government-approved English language test.

The decision was made while Theresa May was home secretary as her department introduced policies designed to create a hostile environment for immigrants deemed to be in the country illegally. More than 1,000 students have been removed from the UK as a result

Most students accused of fraudulently obtaining the language proficiency certificate required for a visa extension were unable to appeal, because of a parallel move by the Home Office to remove appeal rights and legal aid for most immigration cases.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...egal-action-over-english-test-cheating-claims

 

[Adisa]

She's a racist and a xenophobe. There's no one that will convince me otherwise.
Although, I'm now a citizen, she was Home Secretary while I was an international student. We had to sign some fecking register 5 days a week, no matter where we were. Had to get permission to travel ffs! Anytime I came into the country, the questions were debasing. She's a cnut and I hate her.

 

[Dave89]

Nice lady, that Mrs May...


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...egal-action-over-english-test-cheating-claims

And still some people say they have sympathy for her over brexit.

 

[Drifter]

Tories in freefall as councillors say they have given up canvassing

The Conservatives face an unprecedented wipeout in the upcoming local elections with early indications suggesting they could lose up to 1,000 seats.

Party bosses have voiced fears that up to a quarter of their 5,521 council seats could go across the country, according to the Sunday Express, with concerns raised that the party may be flat broke to boot.

Treasurer Sir Mick Davis has said the party has been “deserted by both Remain and Leave donors and therefore I am unable to run CCHQ and ensure we are capable of fighting and winning”.


Tory Chairman Brandon Lewis also acknowledged “huge frustration” among grassroots members and activists as he pleaded with them to back the Conservatives rather than Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party.

Elsewhere Ross Kempsell, Political Editor at talkRADIO, has reported that many Tory candidates are not even bothering to canvass, just leaflet drop, with one source saying: “Why would I get screamed and shouted at about something I can’t change, she’s no idea what we are facing”.

Elections will take place at 248 councils in England this Thursday, and Tory deputy chairwoman Helen Whately has admitted it is “going to be a difficult night for us”.

She said the contests in England were a chance to “kick the Government” and said she had seen “more anger than before” on the doorstep.

The latest Westminster voting intention shows the Tories are in “freefall” in the polls.

They dropped a further three points this week as new single issue parties take a bite out of their voter share.

Last week it was reported that Labour has taken a clear lead across ten Westminster polls.

Jeremy Corbyn’s party has an average lead of five percentage points over Theresa May’s Conservatives, with some polling companies giving them up to a ten point lead.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Sunday Express, stop reading there.

Not saying the Tories won't take a beating, but lets get a credible source, can we?

 

[Smores]

Sunday Express, stop reading there.

Not saying the Tories won't take a beating, but lets get a credible source, can we?

It's largely come from the Tory peer Hayward who is a credible analyst although his number was 800 not 1000.

Perfectly logical that they'll be punished as such considering most Tories are against the handling of brexit. Turnouts are usually low so the protest vote will be enough to tip the balance.

 

[Smores]

Had to shudder reading Moggs LBC statements today, feels awful agreeing with him on anything.

Quite surprised to see he falls on the side of not revoking Shamima Begums citizenship.

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[sun_tzu]

What a bizarre approach as well. Surely if you're a dedicated 'centrist' you'd understand it's much better to back the party that, despite its failings, at least has a somewhat solid history and a relatively solid base of voters to rely on with some key constituencies...even if that support base has been increasingly eradicated? Change UK are starting with feck all for the most part...really doesn't make sense.

Id take it with a pinch of salt... pragmatism and logic would suggest the libs are a damaged brand but have a good on the ground organisation - change bring some funding, some profile and a chance to make a fresh start (loose the baggage of the coalition) and the libs bring with them a fair chunk of local government power and the on the ground organisation - ultimately a merger makes a lot of sense for both parties... that said politics and logic dont always go hand in hand

 

[sun_tzu]

Centrism as a philosophy is stupid.

which part is stupid... I mean not a part you happen to not agree with but what part of this is actually "stupid"

In politics, centrism—the centre (British/Canadian/Australian English) or the center (American/Philippine English)—is a political outlook or specific position that involves acceptance or support of a balance of a degree of social equality and a degree of social hierarchy, while opposing political changes which would result in a significant shift of society strongly to either the left or the right.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrism

stupid
/ˈstjuːpɪd/
adjective

1. 1.
   having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.

 

[Sweet Square]

which part is stupid... I mean not a part you happen to not agree with but what part of this is actually "stupid"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrism

Iraq & Afghanistan war ?

Libya intervention ?

08 crash and the reaction to it ?

Austerity ?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Centrism as a philosophy is stupid.

I like the idea of moderates to a certain extent in that it's good to have people who are perhaps more flexible and varied in their ideology than those on the left or right, but yeah, it should be a sort of general starting point as opposed to some sort of end goal you hold yourself to. If literally the only political belief you hold is to be in the middle of everyone else then you don't really believe in anything at all.

It's not a compromise. It's a stance against hardline elements of both right and left. A centrist govt is the ideal govt of all.

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[Paul the Wolf]

This doesn't actually make sense. In 30 years time the current 35+ will be the 65+ so there will always be the 65+ group.

 

[Cheesy]

It's not a compromise. It's a stance against hardline elements of both right and left. A centrist govt is the ideal govt of all.

But there's a certain arrogance in deciding that ideas you dislike on either end of the spectrum are 'hardline' while yours are somehow magically altruistic and decent just because they're in the middle of whatever other political parties are proposing. Again, if your stance is literally to be in the middle of everyone else no matter what, then you don't have a stance.

 

[RedSky]

This doesn't actually make sense. In 30 years time the current 35+ will be the 65+ so there will always be the 65+ group.

How many 35+ would vote for the Tories though? I would have to have a life changing attitude change to vote for those turds given how much they abandoned my generation. They can get fecked.

So the question is, how many people change voting stance through their lifetime?

 

[Sweet Square]

This doesn't actually make sense. In 30 years time the current 35+ will be the 65+ so there will always be the 65+ group.

The tories are appealing to old home owners while offering nothing to anyone else. So the next 65+ group won't have the similar material conditions as the current lot and will unlikely be tory voters.

 

[Cheesy]

This doesn't actually make sense. In 30 years time the current 35+ will be the 65+ so there will always be the 65+ group.

There will be a 65+ group but younger people are voting Labour in increasing numbers. Typically Labour have been seen as the party of the young but it's been pointed out that if you took working people alone then Labour would come away from elections with much better results than those who are retired, which contradicts the notion only students who haven't 'gone into the real world' and all that jazz are the ones propping Labour up.

And it makes sense for several reasons. A lot of older Tories like the Tory Party because for all the inequality they've perpetrated a lot of them did well under Thatcher. They became homeowners and succeeded in making more money or owning their own business. Things got better and for the most part (if I'm generalising) they retired in a more comfortable position than they started.

But that's changed. Lots of younger people are working for years but struggling to buy property. People have less job security than they did before. Hence dissatisfaction with the status quo which, for all its flaws, tended to work fairly well for those who at least were meant to benefit from it.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

How many 35+ would vote for the Tories though? I would have to have a life changing attitude change to vote for those turds given how much they abandoned my generation. They can get fecked.

So the question is, how many people change voting stance through their lifetime?

But they probably do change their voting during their lifetime , but what is different from 40 years ago, younger people tended to vote Labour too but they're now voting Tory. Young people felt the same about the Tories all those years ago.
It's like Brexit, a lot of those who voted overwhelmingly pro-EEC now voted against the EU.

The tories are appealing to old home owners while offering nothing to anyone else. So the next 65+ group won't have the similar material conditions as the current lot and will unlikely be tory voters.

As above, however, I don't think all over 65+ are so well off.

There will be a 65+ group but younger people are voting Labour in increasing numbers. Typically Labour have been seen as the party of the young but it's been pointed out that if you took working people alone then Labour would come away from elections with much better results than those who are retired, which contradicts the notion only students who haven't 'gone into the real world' and all that jazz are the ones propping Labour up.

And it makes sense for several reasons. A lot of older Tories like the Tory Party because for all the inequality they've perpetrated a lot of them did well under Thatcher. They became homeowners and succeeded in making more money or owning their own business. Things got better and for the most part (if I'm generalising) they retired in a more comfortable position than they started.

But that's changed. Lots of younger people are working for years but struggling to buy property. People have less job security than they did before. Hence dissatisfaction with the status quo which, for all its flaws, tended to work fairly well for those who at least were meant to benefit from it.

But it's always been like that, and not everyone over 65 is comfortably off, probably a lot aren't. Pre-Thatcher a lot of people didn't own properties and lived in council houses, these are those people.

People may have found it easier to buy a house before because there was little else to spend their money on, you paid your mortgage and ate (if you could do both) with extortionate interest rates, anything else was a luxury.

 

[Cheesy]

But it's always been like that, and not everyone over 65 is comfortably off, probably a lot aren't. Pre-Thatcher a lot of people didn't own properties and lived in council houses, these are those people.

People may have found it easier to buy a house before because there was little else to spend their money on, you paid your mortgage and ate (if you could do both) with extortionate interest rates, anything else was a luxury.

But the stats are literally showing that Tory voters among the young have declined massively in recent years. Even compared to what they've been like before. And they're depending more and more on older voters than they were before as well: without major policy shifts the new generations of old people won't vote Tory to the same extent.

Obviously not all old people are well-off. But many who are, or many who're doing okay for themselves at the very least, vote Tory because their material circumstances improved to an extent under Tory circumstances. That's not happening for younger generations and so they won't be as incentivised to vote Tory.

The reason it's harder to buy a house is because house prices have gone up astronomically compared to wages and earnings. Which is an absolute fact. Nothing to do with people spending on other stuff. Buying luxuries isn't just something that's emerged in the past few years, it's been around for generations now.

 

[Sweet Square]

Nick Clegg

“It would have been in a Quad meeting, so either Cameron or Osborne. One of them – I honestly can’t remember whom – looked genuinely nonplussed and said, ‘I don’t understand why you keep going on about the need for more social housing – it just creates Labour voters.’

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

But there's a certain arrogance in deciding that ideas you dislike on either end of the spectrum are 'hardline' while yours are somehow magically altruistic and decent just because they're in the middle of whatever other political parties are proposing. Again, if your stance is literally to be in the middle of everyone else no matter what, then you don't have a stance.

It's just belief that extremism in anything is not really good.

Being in the middle does not mean centrist are undecided or fail to take a stance. I don't think you'll meet a true centrist who doesn't have a opinion.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Quite telling that the post about 300 overworked NHS nurses commiting suicide gets feck all acknowledgment but an argument ensues over how old folk might vote in 30 years time.

 

[Smores]

It's just belief that extremism in anything is not really good.

Being in the middle does not mean centrist are undecided or fail to take a stance. I don't think you'll meet a true centrist who doesn't have a opinion.

Doesn't that depend on whether your opinions happen to fall in the centre of whatever political environment you find yourself or whether you believe in the principle of centrism itself?

The centre of UK and US politics are quite far apart and it's not clear to me what position proud UK centrists would take if they were in fact American. Would they suddenly not believe in free healthcare for all?

The idea that no good has come from extreme politics or policy seems a very ill thought statement to me, only extreme policies have really changed much for the better. It also pitched centrism as restricting change which is probably a better slogan for Change UK

 

[berbatrick]

It's just belief that extremism in anything is not really good.

Being in the middle does not mean centrist are undecided or fail to take a stance. I don't think you'll meet a true centrist who doesn't have a opinion.

fecking extremists man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purna_Swaraj

 

[Paul the Wolf]

But the stats are literally showing that Tory voters among the young have declined massively in recent years. Even compared to what they've been like before. And they're depending more and more on older voters than they were before as well: without major policy shifts the new generations of old people won't vote Tory to the same extent.

Obviously not all old people are well-off. But many who are, or many who're doing okay for themselves at the very least, vote Tory because their material circumstances improved to an extent under Tory circumstances. That's not happening for younger generations and so they won't be as incentivised to vote Tory.

The reason it's harder to buy a house is because house prices have gone up astronomically compared to wages and earnings. Which is an absolute fact. Nothing to do with people spending on other stuff. Buying luxuries isn't just something that's emerged in the past few years, it's been around for generations now.

Perhaps people did become better off under the Tories which would be a reason they voted for them later in life and that less younger people now vote for the Tories.
However, many people did own houses either before the 60s 70s and 80s when more people started owning their homes.
But prices were skyrocketing in the late seventies when I first bought a house which doubled in price in four years and continued to do so progressively. Plus paying between 10 and 17% interest pa.

Depends what the definition of luxury is. A TV which most people rented or a VCR later also rented.
Different generations face different problems but the suggestion that life was easy for people of my generation when they were young is a bit galling.

 

[Sweet Square]

Quite telling that the post about 300 overworked NHS nurses commiting suicide gets feck all acknowledgment but an argument ensues over how old folk might vote in 30 years time.

The story was in some of the papers but nothing on the BBC.

Different generations face different problems but the suggestion that life was easy for people of my generation when they were young is a bit galling.

No one is saying this and also you've said one of the reasons why young people can't afford to buy a home is because of ''luxury items''

 

[Paul the Wolf]

No one is saying this and also you've said one of the reasons why young people can't afford to buy a home is because of ''luxury items''

Luxury items as in what would have been classed as luxury items years ago but aren't classed as luxury items now. Mobile phones, computers etc which people take for granted now which didn't exist, there weren't additional costs apart from the basics so all young peoples wages were to pay for mortgage/rent, services ie gas/electricity etc, food and an old banger as car. That's it.