Westminster Politics

Rayner's always good value during PMQs, just a shame she's up against the proverbial dead donkey of a deputy PM.
 
Everyone looking forward to finding out how fecked over you’re going to get personally today and how fecked over the country’s public services are going to be?
 
Have you noticed how Jeremy Hunt has borrowed Priti Patel's supercilious little smirk? Tories will be partying hard tonight after hitting the most vulnerable again.
 
Just listened on the radio to one of the most outrageous right wing statements I have ever heard.
The person was talking about the state pension which he stated should be means tested.
And he said that people who live in Council Tax Band D and above houses should be 'made to downsize in order to receive the state pension'.
This person was an economist.

Honestly. Talking about things like this just illustrates how divided this country has become.
Not only divided by rich and poor. But divided by age and the type of house people have worked hard all their lives to be able to afford.
 
It's the kind of thing people with lots of property, who have no need of a pension, tend to say.
 
Buster15 said:
Just listened on the radio to one of the most outrageous right wing statements I have ever heard.
The person was talking about the state pension which he stated should be means tested.
And he said that people who live in Council Tax Band D and above houses should be 'made to downsize in order to receive the state pension'.
This person was an economist.

Honestly. Talking about things like this just illustrates how divided this country has become.
Not only divided by rich and poor. But divided by age and the type of house people have worked hard all their lives to be able to afford.
Click to expand...

And then we wonder why people don't take notice of so-called 'experts' anymore!

It's not as though (State) pensioners haven't paid in over their working lives, if state pensions become even remotely seen as a benefit, not a right, then we are on the way to hell in a hand cart.
 
Maticmaker said:
And then we wonder why people don't take notice of so-called 'experts' anymore!

It's not as though (State) pensioners haven't paid in over their working lives, if state pensions become even remotely seen as a benefit, not a right, then we are on the way to hell in a hand cart.
Click to expand...
Your party recently started to refer to the state pension as a benefit rather than something that has been paid for over a person’s working life.
 
Pexbo said:
Your party recently started to refer to the state pension as a benefit rather than something that has been paid for over a person’s working life.
Click to expand...

Don't know which of my (many) parties said that, but it's wrong, when it refers to the basic state pension, for those who have contributed all their lives, it's a right and should not be means tested.

There are some areas (possibly more than at present) where means testing is appropriate where people are in receipt of 'benefits', especially in the situation the country is in now, but not the basic state pension.
 
Buster15 said:
Just listened on the radio to one of the most outrageous right wing statements I have ever heard.
The person was talking about the state pension which he stated should be means tested.
And he said that people who live in Council Tax Band D and above houses should be 'made to downsize in order to receive the state pension'.
This person was an economist.

Honestly. Talking about things like this just illustrates how divided this country has become.
Not only divided by rich and poor. But divided by age and the type of house people have worked hard all their lives to be able to afford.
Click to expand...

Its been looked at before and rejected as a terrible idea.

How can a financial advisor advise a client to pay into a pension if the money then counts against your state pension? It would be a terrible return on investment as most people would see their long term income drop buy 30% or more. It would only work in terms of saving the govt money if it hurt most state pensioners and would lead to a massive drop in people taking out pensions which is the opposite of what is needed.

People would just retire earlier to come in under the threshold making more economically inactive people.
 
Maticmaker said:
And then we wonder why people don't take notice of so-called 'experts' anymore!

It's not as though (State) pensioners haven't paid in over their working lives, if state pensions become even remotely seen as a benefit, not a right, then we are on the way to hell in a hand cart.
Click to expand...

Yes exactly.
I mean who in their right mind would contemplate implementing such a policy bearing in mind that the current state pension the vast majority of people get is £135/week. Some of which is then taxed by those who pay the basic rate of income tax.

Furthermore, there is a lot of discussion going on as to whether this so called black hole in the economy actually exists. Because it depends on the way you do the accounting and over which timescales.
And then, assuming you believe that there is a large black hole, what the size is. I have read estimates between £0 and £60 billions.

When I worked in aero engineering, we were talking about manufacturing measurements with toleranceces down to microns. A thousandth of a millimeter.

So I really don't believe anything I am told by economists.
Or politicians by the way.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Its been looked at before and rejected as a terrible idea.

How can a financial advisor advise a client to pay into a pension if the money then counts against your state pension? It would be a terrible return on investment as most people would see their long term income drop buy 30% or more. It would only work in terms of saving the govt money if it hurt most state pensioners and would lead to a massive drop in people taking out pensions which is the opposite of what is needed.

People would just retire earlier to come in under the threshold making more economically inactive people.
Click to expand...

Well said.
And of course ones house is not a liquid asset.
Anyway, I simply don't understand how some people can think that just because you happen to live in a particular house which is in Council Tax Band D and above, you are somehow well off.
The council tax banding process relies primarily on a notional house value set all the way back in 1991 based on sale prices in that year. Wonderful eh.
 
Buster15 said:
Yes exactly.
I mean who in their right mind would contemplate implementing such a policy bearing in mind that the current state pension the vast majority of people get is £135/week. Some of which is then taxed by those who pay the basic rate of income tax.

Furthermore, there is a lot of discussion going on as to whether this so called black hole in the economy actually exists. Because it depends on the way you do the accounting and over which timescales.
And then, assuming you believe that there is a large black hole, what the size is. I have read estimates between £0 and £60 billions.

When I worked in aero engineering, we were talking about manufacturing measurements with toleranceces down to microns. A thousandth of a millimeter.

So I really don't believe anything I am told by economists.
Or politicians by the way.
Click to expand...

Filling 'black holes'... really all this means is "can we make sure we don't pass too much debt on to our grandchildren"

No economist, and very few politicians will even know what you are talking about with microns...
We need to get back to making things that are real, but sadly it's all on spreadsheets or in cyberspace
 
Buster15 said:
Yes exactly.
I mean who in their right mind would contemplate implementing such a policy bearing in mind that the current state pension the vast majority of people get is £135/week. Some of which is then taxed by those who pay the basic rate of income tax.

Furthermore, there is a lot of discussion going on as to whether this so called black hole in the economy actually exists. Because it depends on the way you do the accounting and over which timescales.
And then, assuming you believe that there is a large black hole, what the size is. I have read estimates between £0 and £60 billions.

When I worked in aero engineering, we were talking about manufacturing measurements with toleranceces down to microns. A thousandth of a millimeter.

So I really don't believe anything I am told by economists.
Or politicians by the way.
Click to expand...

To be fair there is a real issue here - with an ageing population, healthcare costs grow faster and faster every year, while the number of peak tax payers (in terms of income tax and NICs) falls. Which means that people of working age have to pay more and more tax to cover the costs of those not of working age.

We have to solve that issue somehow. Whatever we do will involve changing the status quo, and I'm sure some people will be worse off as a result. But the alternative is to do nothing and leave our kids to deal with a tax and pensions crisis to go with the climate crisis, housing crisis and debt crisis we're leaving them.
 
largelyworried said:
To be fair there is a real issue here - with an ageing population, healthcare costs grow faster and faster every year, while the number of peak tax payers (in terms of income tax and NICs) falls. Which means that people of working age have to pay more and more tax to cover the costs of those not of working age.

We have to solve that issue somehow. Whatever we do will involve changing the status quo, and I'm sure some people will be worse off as a result. But the alternative is to do nothing and leave our kids to deal with a tax and pensions crisis to go with the climate crisis, housing crisis and debt crisis we're leaving them.
Click to expand...

We are screwed if we don't massively increase immigration in the short term.
 
I have to be honest, there is stuff in Hunt's statement which should be continued by Labour if they ever get into power.

I do have a question for anyone/everyone that knows - how do we have the highest tax burden in 70 years after 12 years of supposedly tax cutting Tory Governments (e.g. raising the income tax thresholds) and massive austerity, which is premised on spending less money?

Can anyone point me to a clear answer, because I am genuinely baffled.
 
largelyworried said:
To be fair there is a real issue here - with an ageing population, healthcare costs grow faster and faster every year, while the number of peak tax payers (in terms of income tax and NICs) falls. Which means that people of working age have to pay more and more tax to cover the costs of those not of working age.

We have to solve that issue somehow. Whatever we do will involve changing the status quo, and I'm sure some people will be worse off as a result. But the alternative is to do nothing and leave our kids to deal with a tax and pensions crisis to go with the climate crisis, housing crisis and debt crisis we're leaving them.
Click to expand...

I don't know the figures for state pensions but for the public sector (and some private) pensions for every £1 paid in the providers are liable to pay £3 out. That led to the pension crisis a few weeks ago. I'd assume the state pension outlook is far worse than that. Something will have to give.

Considering how the boomer generation screwed everybody after them I'm not too keen to pay for that on top of everything else we've been saddled with. The burden should not fall on the young.
 
Frosty said:
I have to be honest, there is stuff in Hunt's statement which should be continued by Labour if they ever get into power.

I do have a question for anyone/everyone that knows - how do we have the highest tax burden in 70 years after 12 years of supposedly tax cutting Tory Governments (e.g. raising the income tax thresholds) and massive austerity, which is premised on spending less money?

Can anyone point me to a clear answer, because I am genuinely baffled.
Click to expand...

COVID
 
Why is there such massive opposition to means-tested state pensions? Even if the 'means' were set very high (i.e. private pension provision or other income above £100K per tax year for example) then that would still save quite a lot of money? My granddad benefits from a state pension and it doesn't even touch the sides of what he gets from private pensions and he would be the first to admit that he could easily do without it, including the free bus pass etc. he is entitled to.
 
Pexbo said:
Your party recently started to refer to the state pension as a benefit rather than something that has been paid for over a person’s working life.
Click to expand...

That's the issue though, it hasn't been paid for over a persons working life. We cover the current obligation not our own, the unlucky lot after us will have to do the same for us.

I wouldn't agree with the discussed proposal but some means testing will need to come in. I'd increase IHT on property to cover it all personally as that's the unearned income.
 
Frosty said:
I have to be honest, there is stuff in Hunt's statement which should be continued by Labour if they ever get into power.

I do have a question for anyone/everyone that knows - how do we have the highest tax burden in 70 years after 12 years of supposedly tax cutting Tory Governments (e.g. raising the income tax thresholds) and massive austerity, which is premised on spending less money?

Can anyone point me to a clear answer, because I am genuinely baffled.
Click to expand...

This is pre-Truss but its still a good overview of both the economics and the politics. Basically its down to weak economic growth since the financial crash which meant the economy hasn't kept up with the increasing costs of health, social care and pensions.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2022/02/the-rise-of-high-tax-britain
 
largelyworried said:
To be fair there is a real issue here - with an ageing population, healthcare costs grow faster and faster every year, while the number of peak tax payers (in terms of income tax and NICs) falls. Which means that people of working age have to pay more and more tax to cover the costs of those not of working age.

We have to solve that issue somehow. Whatever we do will involve changing the status quo, and I'm sure some people will be worse off as a result. But the alternative is to do nothing and leave our kids to deal with a tax and pensions crisis to go with the climate crisis, housing crisis and debt crisis we're leaving them.
Click to expand...
I think it's the potentially random nature of the targets (using rateable tax bands) plus the idea of treating the state pension as a means-tested benefit that makes it a bad idea. Plus, I see it as a deflection from the real issue, because it wouldn't save enough money, whereas it would set unhelpful precedents.

If it's intended as some kind of OAP wealth tax - why not have a wealth tax? Why is income earned from going to work taxed more heavily (due to the impact of NI, tax allowances and in some cases tax rates) than income from pensions, capital gains, investments, rents etc.

Making the tax system fairer is crucial, we need more money to do the things that need doing (on climate change, education, housing, health and on care services etc) a lot of that can and should come from people of pension age but that needs an honest approach to tax not just a gimmick.
 
jojojo said:
If it's intended as some kind of OAP wealth tax - why not have a wealth tax? Why is income earned from going to work taxed more heavily (due to the impact of NI, tax allowances and in some cases tax rates) than income from pensions, capital gains, investments, rents etc.
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This is at the absolute heart of the matter. Because the system is set up to enable those with wealth and property to create more wealth and gain more property at the expensive of those who work. This underlying philosophy is woven through the policies of all UK governments since the 80s.
 
jojojo said:
If it's intended as some kind of OAP wealth tax - why not have a wealth tax? Why is income earned from going to work taxed more heavily (due to the impact of NI, tax allowances and in some cases tax rates) than income from pensions, capital gains, investments, rents etc.

Making the tax system fairer is crucial, we need more money to do the things that need doing (on climate change, education, housing, health and on care services etc) a lot of that can and should come from people of pension age but that needs an honest approach to tax not just a gimmick.
Click to expand...
Totally agree, and also inheritance tax as @Smores says above. Apologies for nitpicking but I would avoid the term wealth tax personally as it has overtones of jealousy rather than fairness, so Fair Taxes might be better. Hopefully Labour's spin people can come up with something, terminology-wise.
 
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