It's this type of attitude which enables the government to enact policies which contribute massively these deaths.
The real negligence is alot closer to your home than you think...
Westminster Politics
- Thread starter altodevil
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The real negligence is alot closer to your home than you think...
It isn't an attitude its just realism.
Do the numbers come up with a plan which doesn't bankrupt us and leave us with no social housing and a believable tax base to pay for it all and I'll jump on board. Or you can pretend and say the trite ill thought out nonsense which attracts people to the shores of a supposedly developed country which treats them badly so they want to leave and then we can watch them hurl themselves into the sea a drown.
Because of thinking like yours.
Closer to home indeed.
Bankrupt us? Please do explain how we, as a country that issues our own currency, are going to go bankrupt… the economic illiteracy is hilarious!
We’ve literally just had a pandemic where we have paid millions of people to stay at home and not work for months on end… yet the cost of migrants entering the country who would likely go on to fill jobs and pay taxes is just a step too far for the Queen’s purse.
Perhaps we’d have more social housing if the Government actually built some and didn’t try their hardest to sell them all.
Not only that but apparently it's either complete bankruptcy or letting them all drown. No other choices.
There was me thinking they are in France not North Korea so maybe that is the French govt's job.
To be fair we let 600'000 people a year in that way.
If you have thought out your policy suggestion then you can give me an estimate as to the potential numbers once we are seen to have an open door policy as you are suggesting.
It costs £35'000 per person to process the applications apparently.
What are you thinking the cost of repatriating those we send back will be and what percentages do you think will be granted leave to stay verses returned?
Lastly will you be supporting the group super gluing themselves to the tarmac on the day because you know as well as I do that is going happen.
I would support any of those things you mentioned if the alternative is to let people drown. "Oh but it's the french"... I don't want to play that game, both governments can go feck themselves because they don't give two craps if these people live or die and then they have the nerve to comment on it saying how tragic it is.
Printing our own money isn't the same as having unlimited spending that is real economic illiteracy right there. Noting the costs of the pandemic isn't helping your argument it just means we are going to have to curb spending more later or face devaluation. Just because it hasn't happened yet because all the world is in the same fix doesn't meant it isn't going to happen.
Can you really be so far down the rabbit hole you actually think that amount a govt spends doesn't matter at all? Austerity was bullshit but pretending there are no consequences to spending is nonsense. Historically The list of countries who tried this approach and wish they hadn't is very long.
And we haven't built enough social housing in the UK now for 40 years. I don't suspect we are going to any time soon.
Like I say instead of the fine words which make you feel all warm and friendly but probably do more harm than good in the long term, put some numbers in the boxes and lets discus policy costs and potential outcomes unintended consequences etc.
I think this debate, is dishonest on your side.
There are choices and each one has real consequences. In my opinion you are ducking them by talking bollox about my post.
How many people do you want the UK to take from France. What is the budget you would assign for looking after them once they are here? Where are they going to be housed? Do we have enough doctors to look after them enough capacity in schools to teach them?
What extra taxes are you prepared to pay to make this happen?
All I hear is fantasy, and then the kids drown because we live in reality.
Its not this or bankruptcy. Its this or a well thought out and properly costed alternative policy which everyone comes up empty on every time I ask.( or just some recognition as to how difficult this issue really is)
Lastly, I think this is just the beginning. The numbers from here are going to grow exponentially whatever solution you think is right or moral I don't think you understand the demographics.
Maybe you've missed the part of my post where I said they could be sent back to their homes. Not that I defend that, I don't know the details of the process, the costs involved or the capacity the UK (or any other country for that matter) has to "absorb" these people into their societies.
What I know is that it's completely immoral to let them die at sea and not try to deal with the whole situation with humanity.
Do you think the UK navy should get these people from the sea, bring them to shore and then deal with them within the law, or should they ignore them and let them die? Because let's be honest, in the majority of cases they know where these "boats" are, they have the capability to go there and help, they chose not to. Are you comfortable with your country doing this?
Same for the french, italian, greek and spanish governments. They're all perfectly fine with people dying close to their shores.
We (EU) pay absurd amounts of money to Turkey and other countries to keep the problem at bay, with obvious shit results, so I don't buy for a second that helping these people avoid death would somehow cripple some of the richest countries in the world. It's all about will, not money.
With the people in boats crossing the Channel, it's easy for politicians to hide behind the argument that they are safe in France so have no dire need to risk the crossing because there is some validity to that. And let's face it, the electorate just voted to tighten our borders- just read the DM comment section on these stories if you need a reminder of how callous and lacking in empathy some people can be.
It clearly needs some really integrated international approach, but how would you ever build consensus on such a thorny issue?
Surely it's only going to get worse with climate change though, which is depressing.
The fact that the UK, USA etc have ruined many countries in the middle East, making them inhospitable, has led to this crisis. Time to take responsibility maybe.
The question to ask is why is being an illegal immigrant in the UK worth risking your life over rather than being an illegal immigrant in France?
Show me where I have advocated for “unlimited spending”? Funny how you have to make a straw man and argue against things I haven’t said because I called you out for talking about the country going bankrupt…
I don’t believe… in fact, I know… that offering a safe passage for migrants so they don’t drown in the channel and fairly processing applications for asylum would not cause this wealthy country any tangible economic problems. Although it does offer the Government optics problems given that we are largely an island of people that have been fed on anti-migrant rhetoric for years.
You just have to see the amount of indifference and even glee from some people that these poor people drowned before making it to our shores. The decision to let that happen is political and not because we can’t afford to help them.
You keep talking about ‘numbers’. Where are yours to prove your point? You mention 600k coming here but is that net migration and what proportion are students coming here to study? How many are asylum seekers?
£35k to process an application? Not sure I believe that number but even if I did, what amount do you think is low enough that we could afford to not let them drown?
Absolutely and the UK should welcome plenty. The nimbys need to realise we actually need young workers into the country.
Will be a cold day in hell before the US takes responsibility.
The current home office infrastructure to deal with migrants and refugees clearly needs massive investment and an overhaul. Having experienced the Lunar House visa processing centre in Croydon, I know how unpleasant an experience it can be.
This article says the UK takes two years on average, with the cost of processing claims rising 13-fold. Hard to work out cost per claim though.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/delays-push-asylum-costs-up-to-220m-wtb28wp52
How would you offer safe passage to those in France though btw?
I think the lack of infrastructure and will to deal with migrants is a political choice though. There is no reason why asylum claims should take so long to be dealt with which only increases the cost. Get the infrastructure and resources in place to process them far more quickly.
Personally I would offer safe passage by having boat crossings specifically for asylum seekers to get safe travel… but I get that will be somewhat unpalatable to a lot of people. I just don’t happen to have the same view of refugees and migrants.
Also, there are huge employment shortages in this country for many sectors. Perhaps that could be considered when assessing asylum applications. I am sure many people coming over would actually be grateful to do the jobs that we are struggling to recruit for.
That's the dumb thing with the infrastructure. It's so inefficient and labyrinthine, it costs way more than it needs too while leaving claimants dangling for yonks. It's also a constant stick the right wing press use to beat the government with, so you'd think it would be in everyone's interest to fix it.
Yeah the boat service is never going to happen clearly.
Ignoring our obligations to provide safe asylum to refugees?
You're plucking these numbers out of your arse.
Firstly - this is pretty up to date figures on how many people are coming over - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59375590 - these figures also don't take into account how many people are also leaving the UK.
Secondly, the cost of processing applications is no way near that amount - https://www.freemovement.org.uk/how-expensive-are-uk-immigration-applications-and-is-this-a-problem/
I've also worked with the UK Visa & Immigration team within the Home Office to establish certain contracts and frameworks to help Unaccompanied Asylum Seeking Children (UASCs) coming over on migrant boats, and the numbers you're quoting / believing are grossly overstated.
They found £37bn quickly enough for their failed track and trace fiasco.
Putting Johnson on notice it seems...
His very own Watford moment?
I do find it an odd argument that because the useless government hideously overspent on a bungled track and trace app during a global pandemic they can afford to spend whatever on x, y or z.
Saying that, 99% of people arguing cost is the biggest barrier to taking more asylum-seekers in likely aren't thinking about cost deep down.
That doesn't include say two years' housing benefit in London and other allowances which would be paid.
Why would they need to be housed in london? That seems daft from the off.
Regarding the English Channel migrant crisis and the so called efforts to break the business model of the traffickers, is it not the most obvious thing to go after those companies that make the dinghies.
There cannot be hundreds of dinghy manufacturers.
And so, why not get the police to get lists of all the people they have supplied to. Same for the outboard motor suppliers.
And then pay them a visit.
There cannot be hundreds of dinghy manufacturers.
And so, why not get the police to get lists of all the people they have supplied to. Same for the outboard motor suppliers.
And then pay them a visit.
The reasons they are crossing
Take those reasons away
And then there’s no point in them spending money on crossing
Take those reasons away
And then there’s no point in them spending money on crossing
To be fair, the tories are trying their level best to make the country a dystopian hellscape where no fecker wants to live, but it's taking longer than expected.
Nadine Dorries is a cnut. That is all.
I really dislike this country at times
Yes, because that's the real problem. Would be similar to putting a plaster on a broken leg.
The supply of the boats and engines provides the only means of cross channel transport from the French beaches.
So yes, you are right, that is the real problem.
Are there no tailors in the UK? No clue who the guy is on the left…
Amazon workers in 20 countries - including the US, UK, and several in the EU - are planning protests and work stoppages on Black Friday.
UK , doing their duty to crush workers rights.
UK , doing their duty to crush workers rights.
Nothing to do with the UK having no legitimate means to apply for refuge or asylum until they are in the country?
Nothing to do with the UK breaking maritime law and legislating to allow people to die at sea without being rescued?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/12/priti-patel-borders-bill-breaches-law-human-rights
The smugglers are being enabled by UK government policy.
It's almost comical that outlawing dinghys is even being spoken about as a potential solution. The problem is the lack of legitimate options and vlockages of legal applications by the UK is driving this underground.
Reality Check - please think about what TV programmes you are allowing your boys to watch!
France scraps UK talks over Johnson migrants letter
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59428311
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59428311
Is this a valid defence in court I wonder?
Jodie Whittaker made me a criminal? (If I gave her some more wool would sge make me one?)
What sort of people do we elect now ffs?
Channel deaths: Priti Patel disinvited to meeting with France
Boris Johnson’s public letter to Emmanuel Macron on Channel drownings deemed ‘unacceptable’
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...priti-patel-disinvited-to-meeting-with-france
Nothing to do with UK governments total mismanagement. Its those bloody dinghys.
Boris Johnson’s public letter to Emmanuel Macron on Channel drownings deemed ‘unacceptable’
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...priti-patel-disinvited-to-meeting-with-france
Nothing to do with UK governments total mismanagement. Its those bloody dinghys.