Westminster Politics

[sun_tzu]

Hard to see this one being solved

France don't seem to have any desire to persuade people not to risk their lives in crossing

Uk has no interest in making it easier or safer for people

Eu courts have been blocking the unhrc proposal that European countries are designated safe so that people can be returned as they feel it infringes eu law

The smugglers will carry on whilst ever there is demand

The continued issues in many countries (and potential humanitarian disaster in Afghanistan) is only going to ensure the supply of people remains or increases.

In truth it should be a wake up call as to what climate migration would be like and that it is going to take a joint approach... more likley the domestic politics of immigration in the UK and particularly in France with an election coming up means it will just be an excuse for slabre rattling

Probably the only real solutions are unpalatable or impractical so we will build up to a creshendo of gun boats in the Channel with a bit of added fishing wars around the time of the French election next year... perhaps after that if boris has gone and priti patel isn't pm there can be some meaningful negotiations... almost certainly a lot more people die between now and then though

 

[Jippy]

HMRC to relocate to Newcastle office owned by Tory donors via tax haven

The deal will see officials at the government department responsible for preventing tax avoidance working from a site owned by a subsidiary of a company based in a secretive offshore tax jurisdiction.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tle-office-owned-by-tory-donors-via-tax-haven

 

[Buster15]

That's one hell of a take
Ill give you it's original.

It is actually perfectly logical.
Without access to the boats or dinghies that the people traffickers provide and remember, they are only used one way, they will have no means at all to carry out their disgusting activities.
Close that supply down and you close down their business.

Not just that, the boat suppliers should also know who they have been selling them to. Same for the outboard motors.
So you not only cut down on the supply, but you increase your chances of identifying the traffickers.

Please explain to me why that would not work.

 

[Buster15]

Nothing to do with the UK having no legitimate means to apply for refuge or asylum until they are in the country?

Nothing to do with the UK breaking maritime law and legislating to allow people to die at sea without being rescued?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/12/priti-patel-borders-bill-breaches-law-human-rights

The smugglers are being enabled by UK government policy.

It's almost comical that outlawing dinghys is even being spoken about as a potential solution. The problem is the lack of legitimate options and vlockages of legal applications by the UK is driving this underground.

Those things you mentioned are of course part of the whole picture. Don't disagree with any of that.
But remember, my initial post was in response to Boris saying that he intends to 'break the traffickers business model'

A business model that is totally reliant on the supply of boats and engines.
Nothing comical about that. And I don't choose to respond to your posts by trivialising them.
I am instead trying to make a constructive suggestion.

 

[Abizzz]

It is actually perfectly logical.
Without access to the boats or dinghies that the people traffickers provide and remember, they are only used one way, they will have no means at all to carry out their disgusting activities.
Close that supply down and you close down their business.

Not just that, the boat suppliers should also know who they have been selling them to. Same for the outboard motors.
So you not only cut down on the supply, but you increase your chances of identifying the traffickers.

Please explain to me why that would not work.

Because Europe isn't going to treat boats and engines like guns. Giving them better boats would be a better idea than that.

 

[Foxbatt]

Channel deaths: Priti Patel disinvited to meeting with France
Boris Johnson’s public letter to Emmanuel Macron on Channel drownings deemed ‘unacceptable’
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...priti-patel-disinvited-to-meeting-with-france

Nothing to do with UK governments total mismanagement. Its those bloody dinghys.

Of course it is the bloody dinghies and the outboard engine manufacturers. They should be banned. I mean companies that manufacturer knives should also be shut down. Because of people trying to hijack aircraft the manufacturers should also be shut down.
And Priti Patel's parents should have never been allowed to come to the UK from Uganda.

 

[oates]

Because Europe isn't going to treat boats and engines like guns. Giving them better boats would be a better idea than that.

It's one of if not the busiest sea lanes in the World and giving them any sorts of boats would only make the country giving them liable for when they die using them.

Even if that were a practical idea surely you should then train them in navigation and power boat handling or yachtmaster qualifications which would be a responsible manner of leaving them to their own devices in crossing the channel which I'm afraid is ridiculous.

Immigrants are supposed to be returned to the EU country they first entered, quotas agreed by EU and UK countries should then be used in placing these immigrants, transported safely of course. However none of us are sticking to these agreements. France is not applying these agreements, they are in effect not stoping these immigrants from camping around Calais.

Obviously there's been a huge surge in purchasing rubber dinghies and outboard motors, their use is dangerous and the purchasing could be identified and it is one idea of stopping people from dying.

 

[WPMUFC]

Is this a valid defence in court I wonder?

Prosecutor: Why did you bludgeon that old lady to death in the parking lot?
Defendant: Because Luke Skywalker was relegated to the Yoda role in TLJ and Rey made me feel funny things in my pants.
Judge: I've heard enough....the wokes have gone too far....you're free to go.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Prosecutor: Why did you bludgeon that old lady to death in the parking lot?
Defendant: Because Luke Skywalker was relegated to the Yoda role in TLJ and Rey made me feel funny things in my pants.
Judge: I've heard enough....the wokes have gone too far....you're free to go.

 

[Abizzz]

It's one of if not the busiest sea lanes in the World and giving them any sorts of boats would only make the country giving them liable for when they die using them.

Even if that were a practical idea surely you should then train them in navigation and power boat handling or yachtmaster qualifications which would be a responsible manner of leaving them to their own devices in crossing the channel which I'm afraid is ridiculous.

Immigrants are supposed to be returned to the EU country they first entered, quotas agreed by EU and UK countries should then be used in placing these immigrants, transported safely of course. However none of us are sticking to these agreements. France is not applying these agreements, they are in effect not stoping these immigrants from camping around Calais.

Obviously there's been a huge surge in purchasing rubber dinghies and outboard motors, their use is dangerous and the purchasing could be identified and it is one idea of stopping people from dying.

I was taking the mickey out of the idea that a continent is going to regulate rubber dinghys because of another country's inner politics (like it or not no one really cares anymore how many reach British shores but the British). I wasn't seriously advocating giving them boats of any sort.

These people are only in France because they want to go to the UK. France is just unfortunate geographically. The real question is why do these people think it's worth risking their lives to become asylum seekers in the UK? What's the UK promising?

 

[cyberman]

They are not immigrants they are asylum seekers. There’s an important different between the two. As such they aren’t illegal

 

[WPMUFC]

 

[Buster15]

Because Europe isn't going to treat boats and engines like guns. Giving them better boats would be a better idea than that.

Giving them?
Giving who?

 

[Abizzz]

They are not immigrants they are asylum seekers. There’s an important different between the two. As such they aren’t illegal

Fair, I'll edit my post.

 

[oates]

I was taking the mickey out of the idea that a continent is going to regulate rubber dinghys. I wasn't seriously advocating giving them boats of any sort.

These people are only in France because they want to go to the UK. France is just unfortunate geographically. The real question is why do these people think it's worth risking their lives to become illegal immigrants in the UK? What's the UK promising?

I'm sorry I missed your joke however it is a perfectly sensible idea. These smugglers are buying them by the dozen, the manufacturers, wholesalers, retail outlets have never had it so good while taking part in helping smugglers to make money and kill people.

These immigrants hear about a country of workers and layabouts, a country where people aren't being killed by the governments or insurgents in their countries, feck me I'd be heading for anywhere in Europe I've already got friends and family in to help get me and my family set up. It ain't rocket science or were you just taking the piss again?

edit, some are asylum seekers, some are immigrants, they're all looking for a better life, I don't feel an urgent need to mind my Ps&Qs describing them when what we need is for people to stop making money out of killing them.

 

[Abizzz]

I'm sorry I missed your joke however it is a perfectly sensible idea. These smugglers are buying them by the dozen, the manufacturers, wholesalers, retail outlets have never had it so good while taking part in helping smugglers to make money and kill people.

It's about as sensible as getting rid of trucks because of the odd person using it with bad intentions, or keeping all under surveillance.

These immigrants hear about a country of workers and layabouts, a country where people aren't being killed by the governments or insurgents in their countries, feck me I'd be heading for anywhere in Europe I've already got friends and family in to help get me and my family set up. It ain't rocket science or were you just taking the piss again?

I'm not taking the piss. Are you? These people aren't being killed by the french government. You can't be seriously saying that the UK is so much safer than France that it's the rational explanation for crossing the channel in a dinghy?

 

[cyberman]

I'm sorry I missed your joke however it is a perfectly sensible idea. These smugglers are buying them by the dozen, the manufacturers, wholesalers, retail outlets have never had it so good while taking part in helping smugglers to make money and kill people.

These immigrants hear about a country of workers and layabouts, a country where people aren't being killed by the governments or insurgents in their countries, feck me I'd be heading for anywhere in Europe I've already got friends and family in to help get me and my family set up. It ain't rocket science or were you just taking the piss again?

edit, some are asylum seekers, some are immigrants, they're all looking for a better life, I don't feel an urgent need to mind my Ps&Qs describing them when what we need is for people to stop making money out of killing them.

It’s not a small thing. Being an asylum seeker is protected under international law and stopping them before they hit the beaches and such isn’t possible.

 

[oates]

It's about as sensible as getting rid of trucks because of the odd person using it with bad intentions, or keeping all under surveillance.

I'm sorry, you must be taking the piss.

I'm not taking the piss. Are you? These people aren't being killed by the french government. You can't be seriously saying that the UK is so much safer than France that it's the rational explanation for crossing the channel in a dinghy.

I didn't say they are being killed by the French Govt.

I'm saying they are heading to where they already have friends or family. They're heading for somewhere that at the very least feeds them and gives them a roof over their heads even if it is surrounded by barbed wire etc.

It’s not a small thing. Being an asylum seeker is protected under international law and stopping them before they hit the beaches and such isn’t possible.

Some of them are economic migrants, they're all on their way from one place to another, I'll use either one term or another. Try not to be so pedantic, your comments aren't constructive are they?

 

[Abizzz]

I'm sorry, you must be taking the piss.

I assure you I'm not. Even if Priti's idiotic idea of monitoring dinghy sales were put in force and worked they'd just swap to even flimsier not seaworthy objects.

I didn't say they are being killed by the French Govt.

I'm saying they are heading to where they already have friends or family. They're heading for somewhere that at the very least feeds them and gives them a roof over their heads even if it is surrounded by barbed wire etc.

If that's all why not go via land to Switzerland or Germany?

 

[cyberman]

I'm sorry, you must be taking the piss.


I didn't say they are being killed by the French Govt.

I'm saying they are heading to where they already have friends or family. They're heading for somewhere that at the very least feeds them and gives them a roof over their heads even if it is surrounded by barbed wire etc.


Some of them are economic migrants, they're all on their way from one place to another, I'll use either one term or another. Try not to be so pedantic, your comments aren't constructive are they?

How is it it not constructive? It’s the biggest hurdle to any solution, it is against international law to turn back asylum seekers. It’s not a glib term, they are protected and to throw them in with economic migrants is the least constructive point you can make.
No country will ever accept the turning back of asylum seekers. That’s all there is to it

 

[oates]

I assure you I'm not. Even if Priti's idiotic idea of monitoring dinghy sales were put in force and worked they'd just swap to even flimsier not seaworthy objects.

And then they could try banning even flimsier things, perhaps lilos being bought in their thousands during the Winter.

If that's all why not go via land to Switzerland or Germany?

It's not my choice where their friends and family already are or my choice which country they see as their best option. You really are on the wum.

 

[Buster15]

They are not immigrants they are asylum seekers. There’s an important different between the two. As such they aren’t illegal

The asylum process is there to protect an individual who believes that by staying in their country, their life or the life of their family is under threat.
And as such, they are supposed to claim asylum in the first safe country they can get to.
Not travel through a number of countries and then choosing to make a highly dangerous crossing across the busiest waterway to get to the UK.
In that case, they are usually regarded as economic migrants because they are making a specific choice.

 

[Abizzz]

And then they could try banning even flimsier things, perhaps lilos being bought in their thousands during the Winter.


It's not my choice where their friends and family already are or my choice which country they see as their best option. You really are on the wum.

I am not and would appreciate you stopping claiming that I am. The big fat elephant in the room is that they are fleeing to an under policed wealthy country that has huge gaps in the part of the labor market that they are eligible for because of said country's recent developments.

But I'm sure you'll just say thats wumming too.

 

[oates]

How is it it not constructive? It’s the biggest hurdle to any solution, it is against international law to turn back asylum seekers. It’s not a glib term, they are protected and to throw them in with economic migrants is the least constructive point you can make.
No country will ever accept the turning back of asylum seekers. That’s all there is to it

And this discussion about finding ways to stop them from being killed in the Channel isn't about them being turned away, it's about countries not processing them and sending them to countries which have agreed but aren't honouring their quotas. As far as I am aware the French police and border guards are not processing whether they are economic or asylum seekers when they gather them up in a French Border town and march them to the Italian border or allow them to camp in the Calais area.

 

[Jippy]

How is it it not constructive? It’s the biggest hurdle to any solution, it is against international law to turn back asylum seekers. It’s not a glib term, they are protected and to throw them in with economic migrants is the least constructive point you can make.
No country will ever accept the turning back of asylum seekers. That’s all there is to it

Even if they're setting out to sea in non-seaworthy vessels organised by criminal gangs with no qualified person piloting it? Surely any country would have a duty of care to try and stop that and prevent loss of life?

 

[oates]

I am not and would appreciate you stopping claiming that I am. The big fat elephant in the room is that they are fleeing to an under policed wealthy country that has huge gaps in the part of the labor market that they are eligible for because of said country's recent developments.

But I'm sure you'll just say thats wumming too.

What, even if it might be one of a few reasons has that got to do with saving their lives. I can't help but feel you are wumming when you continually come up with daft posts and even admit to mickey taking.

 

[Abizzz]

What, even if it might be one of a few reasons has that got to do with saving their lives. I can't help but feel you are wumming when you continually come up with daft posts and even admit to mickey taking.

It has everything to do with saving their lives when there's no other way for them to get there than risking it. I took the micky out of the idea that Europe was going to treat dinghy's like some dangerous substance only because people misuse them. I did this by saying it would be better to give those misusing them better options instead (yes a silly idea too when there's ferries, planes and trains) I lacked the imagination that anyone would take it seriously.

 

[oates]

It has everything to do with saving their lives when there's no other way for them to get there than risking it. I took the micky out of the idea that Europe was going to treat dinghy's like some dangerous substance only because people misuse them. I did this by saying it would be better to give those misusing them better options instead (yes a silly idea too when there's ferries, planes and trains) I lacked the imagination that anyone would take it serious.

So, the nub of it is that you believe that the best way to stop them from being taken advantage of by smugglers who don't care for their safety is to allow them to cross which ever borders they want to freely but preferred instead to take the mickey by saying give them better boats.

Why not process them and send them to a country that has already agreed a quota or does it have to be freedom of movement across all borders in the World? And you claim you're not on the wum. It's not the situation we're facing and it just ain't going to happen, especially when half of the UK has voted against freedom of movement into the UK by a few select wealthier countries.

Of course I personally would like to have no borders but it won't happen and there wouldn't be the public money to give everyone without a job benefits in the UK if its population moved to 300 million inhabitants and 70% unemployments.

Do you have any ideas meantime to stop these smugglers from killing people in flimsy overloaded rubber floating platforms?

 

[MikeUpNorth]

The channel crossings look like an almost impossible problem to solve, given the practical and political realities. The proximate issue of people getting into dangerous boats on French beaches is hard to police, and the French authorities are doing a terrible job at it. The wider problem of tens of thousands of people willing to risk their lives to get to the UK from Europe requires continent-wide cooperation and compromise to mitigate it even slightly, which looks as far away as ever. Sadly, I think we will see many more people drowning at sea in search of a better life.

 

[oates]

The channel crossings look like an almost impossible problem to solve, given the practical and political realities. The proximate issue of people getting into dangerous boats on French beaches is hard to police, and the French authorities are doing a terrible job at it. The wider problem of tens of thousands of people willing to risk their lives to get to the UK from Europe requires continent-wide cooperation and compromise to mitigate it even slightly, which looks as far away as ever. Sadly, I think we will see many more people drowning at sea in search of a better life.

One might think that a bit of good old fashioned policing, sitting on your bum and phoning or emailing the manufacturers of rubber floating products and asking them for a list of their customers might take an hour or two. Setting up surveillance operations in grotty yachty style outlets to see whether anyone comes in and buys one or two with or without cheap outboard motors during the off-holiday season and following them discretely with a number of policemen, two or three maybe to swap positions from time to time, and hopefully eventually to a beach near Calais and then getting a number of their colleagues to chase these purchasers of rubber products up and down the dunes, eventually getting some handcuffs on them sounds very near damn impossible in eventually rounding up all of the smugglers. It's never as simple as one might think.

 

[Abizzz]

So, the nub of it is that you believe that the best way to stop them from being taken advantage of by smugglers who don't care for their safety is to allow them to cross which ever borders they want to freely but preferred instead to take the mickey by saying give them better boats.

Honestly I don't know what more to say about this. Your home secretary came up with a silly idea and it was made fun of.

And no, making fun of silly ideas won't solve anything. And yes, I was aware that it doesn't.

Why not process them and send them to a country that has already agreed a quota or does it have to be freedom of movement across all borders in the World? And you claim you're not on the wum. It's not the situation we're facing and it just ain't going to happen, especially when half of the UK has voted against freedom of movement into the UK by a few select wealthier countries.

Of course I personally would like to have no borders but it won't happen and there wouldn't be the public money to give everyone without a job benefits in the UK if it's population moved to 300 million inhabitants and 70% unemployments.

Do you have any ideas meantime to stop these smugglers from killing people in flimsy overloaded rubber floating platforms?

Europe and the UK have every mean necessary to make the French/UK border as safe as the French/German, French/Swiss border, French/Belgium border or any other French border for these unfortunate people. They do for their citizens and other visitors. However one party on the French/UK border wants to use the natural danger of said border as a deterrent.

Edit: I should clarify the silly idea wasn't to hunt down the smugglers. I'm all for that. The silly idea was to monitor dinghy sales and motor sales across Europe for this purpose.

 

[oates]

Europe and the UK have every mean necessary to make the French/UK border as safe as the French/German, French/Swiss border, French/Belgium border or any other French border for these unfortunate people. They do for their citizens and other visitors. However one party on the French/UK border wants to use the natural danger of said border as a deterrent.

There's no will to stop migrants on their way to Calais unless occasionally the French police and Border Guards fancy catching them in a French border town with Italy and feel like marching them over the top of a pass in the middle of Winter, or even Autumn and Spring. The same for the Austrians and the Swiss, all they are interested in is collecting money for a vignette - motorway pass. I'm afraid the English Channel has always proved itself a tricky border. None of what you have to say addresses quotas and processing centres, only free movement which just insn't practicable at present. Preti won't have it. And I never wanted her to be my Home Secretary.

 

[Kentonio]

Obviously there's been a huge surge in purchasing rubber dinghies and outboard motors, their use is dangerous and the purchasing could be identified and it is one idea of stopping people from dying.

Do you know how many dinghies and outboard motors are sold each year and how many are out there? You say there's 'obviously' a huge surge in sales, do we have some evidence to support this that specifically points the blame at smugglers and not say the end of the Covid lockdowns and a surge in outdoor activities? I used to work as a sailing instructor many years ago, and in one small, poorly secured site we had about a dozen motorized hard-bodied power boats and rigid inflatables. Probably twice as many outboard motors. That was one small site on a coast with hundreds of other boat based companies within a couple of miles. There are over a million recreational boats registered in France, and goodness only knows how many outboard motors. The second hand market is vast and you can buy/sell boats/motors in a countless number of ways.

I think the likelihood that smugglers are having any significant impact whatsoever on boat/engine sales is wildly unlikely (unless its incredibly localized). Putting controls on a market that size will require a vast amount of effort and resource. It also won't do anything about all the kit already out there. Given that smugglers are criminals, doesn't it just seem obvious that if they can't buy a boat they'll just steal one, particularly as this stuff is very often not well protected?

 

[oates]

Do you know how many dinghies and outboard motors are sold each year and how many are out there?

No, not off hand however a brief google search suggests that 1,185 a day on average are crossing. If the dinghies being used were also carrying an average of 30 people (suggested number due to recent reporting) that means on any 'average' day 39.5 dinghies would be used. 276.5 in a 7 day period plus outboards of course. It may not be more than is usually bought during covid times for holidays on and off season but perhaps enough just for the beady eye'd and on his toes policeman to be able to spot being purchased in several outlets in the Pay de Calais area Or not. It must be tough and hardly as easy as one always supposes.

How far can we suppose the averagely much more intelligent than plod smuggler will travel? Into Belgium? Next region over? The key might be to notice manufacturers selling an extra 300 dinghies a week between them and doing some intelligent - (big mistake) intelligence.

Edit. I suppose it's always just about possible that a policeman might notice a correlatation between this very un-noticeable not so large a number of dinghies and outboards being sold in that maybe it always seems to be the same familiar people buying these dinghies and outboards over and over again. Surely getting through 276 or so a week might be considered more than careless?

 

[Kentonio]

No, not off hand however a brief google search suggests that 1,185 a day on average are crossing. If the dinghies being used were also carrying an average of 30 people (suggested number due to recent reporting) that means on any 'average' day 39.5 dinghies would be used. 276.5 in a 7 day period plus outboards of course. It may not be more than is usually bought during covid times for holidays on and off season but perhaps enough just for the beady eye'd and on his toes policeman to be able to spot being purchased in several outlets in the Pay de Calais area Or not. It must be tough and hardly as easy as one always supposes.

How far can we suppose the averagely much more intelligent than plod smuggler will travel? Into Belgium? Next region over? The key might be to notice manufacturers selling an extra 300 dinghies a week between them and doing some intelligent - (big mistake) intelligence.

Edit. I suppose it's always just about possible that a policeman might notice a correlatation between this very un-noticeable not so large a number of dinghies and outboards being sold in that maybe it always seems to be the same familiar people buying these dinghies and outboards over and over again. Surely getting through 276 or so a week might be considered more than careless?

Having the police watch local sales in specific areas where smugglers are operating seems like common sense, but it's just not really practical to have actual controls nationally or even regionally given the scale. There's also the point of course that this would have to be handled by the French, and unless the UK want to pay for all these measures there's very little incentive for France to spend their time and resources protecting the UK border.

 

[oates]

Having the police watch local sales in specific areas where smugglers are operating seems like common sense, but it's just not really practical to have actual controls nationally or even regionally given the scale. There's also the point of course that this would have to be handled by the French, and unless the UK want to pay for all these measures there's very little incentive for France to spend their time and resources protecting the UK border.

I'm not talking about controls, I'm not saying they have to stop making and selling them, ffs nearly 300 a week/1200 a month are being nicked, borrowed or sold through a limited number of outlets. We're not talking your average kiss me quick hat shop where you can buy a 4ft long dinghy for your kids.

I'm talking about good old fashioned surveillance or email me your cctv of your till areas yachty shop.

Christ knows they are using one of a very few beaches, only one of them is 12km long and most of the rest unsuitable and too short close to retail and residential areas. Goodness knows the French couldn't spare 30 police for one operation of sitting in the dunes with some surveillance equipment for a couple of nights - hang on, that cnut Boris has offered us some extra resource - he can go and do one, we are quite capable of arguing endlessly for the Brits to supply coaches.

Edit. btw, it's still the French border until halfway across the Channel. We could do this together but what the French really want us to do is something that they would refuse to do. There are agreed quotas, there's agreed funding across Europe, only Germany is anywhere near honouring them.

 

[F-Red]

I'm talking about good old fashioned surveillance or email me your cctv of your till areas yachty shop.

Most gangs are ordering online to safe houses, dinghy sales aren't the issue here.

 

[oates]

Most gangs are ordering online to safe houses, dinghy sales aren't the issue here.

Feck me I knew it would be tricky. I suppose it's impossible then, no way of monitoring sales on EBay etc still no way of asking manufacturers if there's been an uplift to certain areas, most of these type sales are delivered straight from manufacturers or main wholesalers, or Delivery companies dropping off very similar sized and shaped boxes in the dozens every few days?

Back to playing in the dunes. I knew it wouldn't be easy.

 

[F-Red]

Feck me I knew it would be tricky. I suppose it's impossible then, no way of monitoring sales on EBay etc still no way of asking manufacturers if there's been an uplift to certain areas, most of these type sales are delivered straight from manufacturers or main wholesalers, or Delivery companies dropping off very similar sized and shaped boxes in the dozens every few days?

Back to playing in the dunes. I knew it wouldn't be easy.

It's all produced in the Far East and shipped directly. It's easier to target the gangs than it is the manufacturers/sellers of dinghy. It's actually far easier to address the problem with policy & diplomacy I'd argue. Clear failings from every side of the Channel on this issue.

 

[oates]

It's all produced in the Far East and shipped directly. It's easier to target the gangs than it is the manufacturers/sellers of dinghy. It's actually far easier to address the problem with policy & diplomacy I'd argue. Clear failings from every side of the Channel on this issue.

Yes, I know it's always going to be hard. What about the DHLs of this world, do you know they actually demand a copy invoice of all goods being delivered in every country?

If I order a watch from Japan, is there an organisation that starts fecking advertising watches to me on every page I look at on t'net 5 minutes afterwards?

I don't know it's just all so fecking impossible. We can always wait another few years for diplomacy.