Westminster Politics

[Paul the Wolf]

Was it the assumption all along? Certainly some of the people who voted Brexit wanted to totally slash immigration/ had racist reasons, while some people who voted remain tended to caricature all those who voted Brexit as being racist/ against all immigration.

One thing I'd tried to explain on here in the past, whilst trying to move past stereotypes, regarding why some people from immigrant backgrounds voted for Brexit is that, in their own words, they didn't feel it was right that a Frenchman or Italian should have it so much easier to come here than an Indian or Egyptian. Now I am not saying that their reasoning isn't still potentially dangerous for the country but its already being put into action and I imagine we will increasingly see the effects of this over the next years.

What exactly is the Brexit economy?

As discussed in the past - if someone from an immigrant background voted Brexit, they already had British citizenship to be able to vote - so why should it bother them from which nation does their neighbour or work colleague come from. One doesn't have to be white and/or British to be racist or xenophobic.

So you are saying that not all people were racist or xenophobic then immediately say the people of immigrant backgrounds voted Brexit because they were racist/xenophobic....

 

[africanspur]

As discussed in the past - if someone from an immigrant background voted Brexit, they already had British citizenship to be able to vote - so why should it bother them from which nation does their neighbour or work colleague comes from. One doesn't have to be white and/or British to be racist or xenophobic.

So you are saying that not all people were racist or xenophobic then immediately say the people of immigrant backgrounds voted Brexit because they were racist/xenophobic....

This was amazing, I was actually going to say how you'll be along imminently to mention how things will be going to shit imminently and then thought that would be unfair, especially without tagging you. Yet here you are regardless.

Nobody said that someone has to be white to be racist or xenophobic. And I'm actually saying that theyre not racist or xenophobic. Unless you think the entire structure of the EU is xenophobic and racist?

I've already explained this to you multiple times. One of my wife's nephews from Egypt had to go through a ridiculously laborious process (and his firm spent about £10k) to get him to work for their tech firm in London. He had to apply for a visa before even being allowed to set foot on UK soil (or European soil for that matter), which involves showing how you'll support yourself, bank statement etc. To come and do his masters in Germant initially also took him far more effort than it would have taken an EU citizen. Her Dutch nephews and nieces on the other hand can simply rock up on a whim and apply for jobs whilst here.

My wife also voted remain but in her eyes for instance, that's pretty unfair.

Voting for Brexit because you want an Indian to have the same chances at getting a job as a Frenchman is not xenophobic or racist.

And of course it matters to people. Just because they've gotten a British passport, it doesn't mean that they suddenly have lost links to their home country and culture and many of these people will still want to have a good diaspora group around them. This is pretty universal across the world.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

This was amazing, I was actually going to say how you'll be along imminently to mention how things will be going to shit imminently and then thought that would be unfair, especially without tagging you. Yet here you are regardless.

Nobody said that someone has to be white to be racist or xenophobic. And I'm actually saying that theyre not racist or xenophobic. Unless you think the entire structure of the EU is xenophobic and racist?

I've already explained this to you multiple times. One of my wife's nephews from Egypt had to go through a ridiculously laborious process (and his firm spent about £10k) to get him to work for their tech firm in London. He had to apply for a visa before even being allowed to set foot on UK soil (or European soil for that matter), which involves showing how you'll support yourself, bank statement etc. To come and do his masters in Germant initially also took him far more effort than it would have taken an EU citizen. Her Dutch nephews and nieces on the other hand can simply rock up on a whim and apply for jobs whilst here.

My wife also voted remain but in her eyes for instance, that's pretty unfair.

Voting for Brexit because you want an Indian to have the same chances at getting a job as a Frenchman is not xenophobic or racist.

And of course it matters to people. Just because they've gotten a British passport, it doesn't mean that they suddenly have lost links to their home country and culture and many of these people will still want to have a good diaspora group around them. This is pretty universal across the world.

I understood perfectly well what you were getting at last time and I knew you would reply like this again.
You still don't get the point.

What you're describing is xenophobic.
It's exactly what I said last time, they want their aunty's cousin's neighbour's son to have a better chance of a job or whatever than some European - so they are discriminating against people because of their race or nationality.

The difference is that I don't care if my neighbour or work colleague or competitor for a job is Welsh, Greek, Egyptian, Chinese, white, green, blue, black or multi-coloured.
But then again that depends on the country's immigration policy not the EU's immigration policy.

Britain could have the same immigration policy for everyone throughout the world but they don't - so it's not the EU they should be voting against, it's the political party who have introduced that immigration policy.

 

[Drifter]

Senior Tory admits: Government ‘misunderstood’ public mood on free school meals

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...stood-public-mood-on-free-school-meals/25/10/

Goes to show how out of touch they are with the people.

 

[Pexbo]

Senior Tory admits: Government ‘misunderstood’ public mood on free school meals

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...stood-public-mood-on-free-school-meals/25/10/

Goes to show how out of touch they are with the people.

We assumed the public hated the poor as much as we do and also loathed the idea of feeding their hungry children.

 

[africanspur]

I understood perfectly well what you were getting at last time and I knew you would reply like this again.
You still don't get the point.

What you're describing is xenophobic.
It's exactly what I said last time, they want their aunty's cousin's neighbour's son to have a better chance of a job or whatever than some European - so they are discriminating against people because of their race or nationality.

The difference is that I don't care if my neighbour or work colleague or competitor for a job is Welsh, Greek, Egyptian, Chinese, white, green, blue, black or multi-coloured.
But then again that depends on the country's immigration policy not the EU's immigration policy.

Britain could have the same immigration policy for everyone throughout the world but they don't - so it's not the EU they should be voting against, it's the political party who have introduced that immigration policy.

I have tried to stay civil with you this whole time but it is incredibly difficult, your approach is so very patronising and, in your European privilege, you struggle to even begin to understand what a person of colour's perspective may be on this topic. You're literally the only person I have ever met in my entire life who will not even acknowledge that the EU structures does mean it is easier for an EU citizen to get a job and move around than it is for a non-EU citizen.

• It is not xenophobic because xenophobia means to hate something that is alien and foreign to your group.
• They do not want their aunty's cousin's neighbour's son to have a better chance of a job than some European, they want them to have the SAME chance as some European. Currently Europeans are advantaged in pretty much every single European country when it comes to education and finding a job vs non-Europeans. I've given you a very clear example from my own multi-continental extended family now and have given you other examples previously.
• Europeans are not a race, nor are they a nationality. Many countries in Europe are multi-ethnic, though most of the people I've met in the UK who have taken advantage of free movement were certainly white. The people I've talked about don't hate white people or Europeans, they just like having more people from their own culture around.
• I think you (and the EU) do care about who your neighbour is, hence why the free movement policies are limited to (white majority) European countries, unless I'm missing free movement agreements signed with any Asian, South American, African or Oceanic countries?

And as I tried to tell you before, exactly what they wanted has happened, as non-EU immigration has shot up since 2016:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...EU citizens added,with 121,000 leaving the UK.

 

[africanspur]

Senior Tory admits: Government ‘misunderstood’ public mood on free school meals

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...stood-public-mood-on-free-school-meals/25/10/

Goes to show how out of touch they are with the people.

Why don't they just do the right and moral thing rather than having to realise they've totally misunderstood the public mood? It shouldn't take getting slammed in the media or the (incredible) work of a 22 year old footballer to make you realise that kids going hungry at any time really but especially now is not acceptable for a rich, industrialised country.

What a bunch of total cnuts.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Why don't they just do the right and moral thing rather than having to realise they've totally misunderstood the public mood? It shouldn't take getting slammed in the media or the (incredible) work of a 22 year old footballer to make you realise that kids going hungry at any time really but especially now is not acceptable for a rich, industrialised country.

What a bunch of total cnuts.

Problem is they will have the inevitable U turn headlines and mocking that means there is no chance they change their mind.

 

[sun_tzu]

Problem is they will have the inevitable U turn headlines and mocking that means there is no chance they change their mind.

As in any negotiation if you want people to change their mind you have to give them a step to climb down on...
A cross party Bill or something like that because the more politicised and "scum" orientated the debate becomes the optics wont allow for a govenment change... Labour probably can get this changed but may have to sacrifice the political capital of being seen to have forced a change of policy i think

I think starmer is pragmatic enough to do that and I'd hope there are back channels working on something from both sides because the Xmas holidays really are not far away

 

[Buster15]

I agree a change to pr would also be a big benefit... personally I'd like compulsory voting similar to Australia as well (perhaps with a none of the above option on the ballot as well)

What is the big benefit of PR. Not being critical. Just interested because I don't have any fixed views.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I have tried to stay civil with you this whole time but it is incredibly difficult, your approach is so very patronising and, in your European privilege, you struggle to even begin to understand what a person of colour's perspective may be on this topic. You're literally the only person I have ever met in my entire life who will not even acknowledge that the EU structures does mean it is easier for an EU citizen to get a job and move around than it is for a non-EU citizen.

• It is not xenophobic because xenophobia means to hate something that is alien and foreign to your group.
• They do not want their aunty's cousin's neighbour's son to have a better chance of a job than some European, they want them to have the SAME chance as some European. Currently Europeans are advantaged in pretty much every single European country when it comes to education and finding a job vs non-Europeans. I've given you a very clear example from my own multi-continental extended family now and have given you other examples previously.
• Europeans are not a race, nor are they a nationality. Many countries in Europe are multi-ethnic, though most of the people I've met in the UK who have taken advantage of free movement were certainly white. The people I've talked about don't hate white people or Europeans, they just like having more people from their own culture around.
• I think you (and the EU) do care about who your neighbour is, hence why the free movement policies are limited to (white majority) European countries, unless I'm missing free movement agreements signed with any Asian, South American, African or Oceanic countries?

And as I tried to tell you before, exactly what they wanted has happened, as non-EU immigration has shot up since 2016:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/august2020#:~:text=In the year ending March 2020, non-EU citizens added,with 121,000 leaving the UK.

Nothing I have said is wrong.
I didn't say it's not easier but why should that worry the person who voted Brexit.

Do they worry that British born of whichever colour or background have an an advantage over Europeans or over non-EU Immigrants If the Europeans can't support themselves they have to go back to their country of origin - where do they intend sending the British.

I particiularly like the bolded parts

You still have not understood. Each country in the EU does not have the same immigration policy, France is different to the Uk which is different to Germany which is different to Italy etc.

Yes non-EU immigration has shot up since 2016 and overall immigration is getting higher each year but then again non-EU immigrants already made up most of the immigrants before that. Just hope the other people who voted Brexit are happy because when discussing with non-immigrant background Brexiters previously it wasn't because they were against various European nationalities but because there were too many immigrants, full stop, and services , schools; jobs etc were taken by all types of immigrants. So what's the next step, vote against all immigration?

Wriggle and squirm, wriggle and squirm.

 

[calodo2003]

Is that a real person?

 

[Abizzz]

Was it the assumption all along? Certainly some of the people who voted Brexit wanted to totally slash immigration/ had racist reasons, while some people who voted remain tended to caricature all those who voted Brexit as being racist/ against all immigration.

One thing I'd tried to explain on here in the past, whilst trying to move past stereotypes, regarding why some people from immigrant backgrounds voted for Brexit is that, in their own words, they didn't feel it was right that a Frenchman or Italian should have it so much easier to come here than an Indian or Egyptian. Now I am not saying that their reasoning isn't still potentially dangerous for the country but its already being put into action and I imagine we will increasingly see the effects of this over the next years.

I think it was pretty obvious to anyone listening to both sides. It was always a fairy tale to cut immigration to the low 10's of thousands and if those immigrants weren't to come out of the EU they'd always come from non EU countries...

What exactly is the Brexit economy?

A service economy tailored to the needs of the elite; where government contracts go to those with connections to the ruling party, and the laws are made to suit them. Those contracts can be made without any checks other than by the civil servants who've been repeatedly whipped by that same ruling party. Consumer manufacturing will be limited to goods that are high margin or can survive in the UK market alone (others will still be allowed to sell in Europe, but they won't be competitive), and far away lands won't make up for it. Exporting services, crucial to the UK, will be hit even worse. By the time Boris' current premiership is over the UK economy will be a very different one to that of 2015.

It isn't impossible for Britain to reinvent itself and find other ways to prosperity. But so far I've seen very little actual evidence of that happening. The tories plan so far is to stay in every part of europe they fancy and cry and piss their pants anytime someone tells them no. That won't help much from january on.

Is that a real person?

Depends who you ask. Some still maintain he isn't much more than a stain of sucm.

 

[calodo2003]

I think it was pretty obvious to anyone listening to both sides. It was always a fairy tale to cut immigration to the low 10's of thousands and if those immigrants weren't to come out of the EU they'd always come from non EU countries...

A service economy tailored to the needs of the elite; where government contracts go to those with connections to the ruling party, and the laws are made to suit them. Those contracts can be made without any checks other than by the civil servants who've been repeatedly whipped by that same ruling party. Consumer manufacturing will be limited to goods that are high margin or can survive in the UK market alone (others will still be allowed to sell in Europe, but they won't be competitive), and far away lands won't make up for it. Exporting services, crucial to the UK, will be hit even worse. By the time Boris' current premiership is over the UK economy will be a very different one to that of 2015.

It isn't impossible for Britain to reinvent itself and find other ways to prosperity. But so far I've seen very little actual evidence of that happening. The tories plan so far is to stay in every part of europe they fancy and cry and piss their pants anytime someone tells them no. That won't help much from january on.


Depends who you ask. Some still maintain he isn't much more than a stain of sucm.

But, that clip wasn’t a deep fake, someone has facial expressions like that naturally?

 

[africanspur]

Nothing I have said is wrong.
I didn't say it's not easier but why should that worry the person who voted Brexit.

Do they worry that British born of whichever colour or background have an an advantage over Europeans or over non-EU Immigrants If the Europeans can't support themselves they have to go back to their country of origin - where do they intend sending the British.

I particiularly like the bolded parts

You still have not understood. Each country in the EU does not have the same immigration policy, France is different to the Uk which is different to Germany which is different to Italy etc.

Yes non-EU immigration has shot up since 2016 and overall immigration is getting higher each year but then again non-EU immigrants already made up most of the immigrants before that. Just hope the other people who voted Brexit are happy because when discussing with non-immigrant background Brexiters previously it wasn't because they were against various European nationalities but because there were too many immigrants, full stop, and services , schools; jobs etc were taken by all types of immigrants. So what's the next step, vote against all immigration?

Wriggle and squirm, wriggle and squirm.

Lots you have said is wrong, you are just too privileged and frankly arrogant to notice.

Why should it worry the person who voted for brexit? For the reason I've tried to tell you before?

No they don't worry about that because they're not perfect. And just like you are not proposing a worldwide free movement agreement (unless you've suddenly become an unabashed globalist) they are not proposing the same either. That does not make them racist.

What did you like and misunderstand about the bolded parts? Let me make it very easy for you:

The UK is a multi ethnic country. At least 20% of its population is non white British. There are at least 23 countries who have at least 100k of their citizens here. It is still however a majority white country, especially when taking into account the fact that many of those 'non white British' are white Europeans.

Let's try again. Germany is a multi ethnic country. 3% of the population is Turkish. 3% Asian. 0.5% from subsaharan Africa. Millions of Italians, Poles, Greens, Romanians etc. Yet Germany is still a white (specifically a Germany white) majority country.

Do you see how the two phrases are not mutually exclusive?

I understand very well that the different countries have different approaches. That has never been my point though. I've tried to explain to you what some PoC perspectives are when it comes to brexit.

Well yes, I agree very much on that. Hence why I'm going to find it hilarious that they voted for that thinking they'd get immigration under control (or that they were just actively racist) and they'll find themselves instead with far more Brown faces immigrating instead.

Who is wriggling and squirming?

 

[Abizzz]

But, that clip wasn’t a deep fake, someone has facial expressions like that naturally?

If I remember correctly that clip came before deep fakes existed.

 

[calodo2003]

If I remember correctly that clip came before deep fakes existed.

Forgot to mention the style of clapping.

An odd cat all around. Does seem a bit twatish.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Lots you have said is wrong, you are just too privileged and frankly arrogant to notice.

Why should it worry the person who voted for brexit? For the reason I've tried to tell you before?

No they don't worry about that because they're not perfect. And just like you are not proposing a worldwide free movement agreement (unless you've suddenly become an unabashed globalist) they are not proposing the same either. That does not make them racist.

What did you like and misunderstand about the bolded parts? Let me make it very easy for you:

The UK is a multi ethnic country. At least 20% of its population is non white British. There are at least 23 countries who have at least 100k of their citizens here. It is still however a majority white country, especially when taking into account the fact that many of those 'non white British' are white Europeans.

Let's try again. Germany is a multi ethnic country. 3% of the population is Turkish. 3% Asian. 0.5% from subsaharan Africa. Millions of Italians, Poles, Greens, Romanians etc. Yet Germany is still a white (specifically a Germany white) majority country.

Do you see how the two phrases are not mutually exclusive?

I understand very well that the different countries have different approaches. That has never been my point though. I've tried to explain to you what some PoC perspectives are when it comes to brexit.

Well yes, I agree very much on that. Hence why I'm going to find it hilarious that they voted for that thinking they'd get immigration under control (or that they were just actively racist) and they'll find themselves instead with far more Brown faces immigrating instead.

Who is wriggling and squirming?

Right just to clear up one thing you don't seem to understand. Hopefully this makes things simpler.

xenophobia

noun

dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

I'm not disputing that countries are multi-ethnic to various degrees, you said hence why the free movement policies are limited to (white majority) European countries .

If the UK join the pacific rim countries in a trade agreement or ECOWAS in West Africa maybe the UK will have a freedom of movement arrangement with them.

The Commonwealth countries had a right to British citizenship up until they decided they didn't want them because they had the privilege to be colonised by the British.

So you're still saying that immigrant background-British wanted to discriminate against European nationals because they'd prefer their own people to have that privilege from their country of origin just like the white British voted for Brexit in the false hope that all immigration would stop or reduce so that white British people would have that preferential treatment. Right OK then.

Wriggling and squirming from Brexiters and apologists.

Yours sincerely
Privileged and arrogant person living in a foreign country to their birth.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Senior Tory admits: Government ‘misunderstood’ public mood on free school meals

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...stood-public-mood-on-free-school-meals/25/10/

Goes to show how out of touch they are with the people.

This is why populism is a load of shit. It shouldn't be dictated by "public mood" (which is just shorthand for "we couldn't bullshit our way out of this one"). It's basic human decency and a fundamental understanding of what life is like for people who don't have free second homes, subsidised meals and travel, or any of the other "benefits" politicians get on top of their £80+k salary.

 

[africanspur]

Right just to clear up one thing you don't seem to understand. Hopefully this makes things simpler.

xenophobia

noun

dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

I'm not disputing that countries are multi-ethnic to various degrees, you said hence why the free movement policies are limited to (white majority) European countries .

If the UK join the pacific rim countries in a trade agreement or ECOWAS in West Africa maybe the UK will have a freedom of movement arrangement with them.

The Commonwealth countries had a right to British citizenship up until they decided they didn't want them because they had the privilege to be colonised by the British.

So you're still saying that immigrant background-British wanted to discriminate against European nationals because they'd prefer their own people to have that privilege from their country of origin just like the white British voted for Brexit in the false hope that all immigration would stop or reduce so that white British people would have that preferential treatment. Right OK then.

Wriggling and squirming from Brexiters and apologists.

Yours sincerely
Privileged and arrogant person living in a foreign country to their birth.

Can you point me to an example, either on this page or elsewhere, where I've misunderstood the meaning of xenophobia?

I know you don't dispute that the countries are multi ethnic. Just clearing up the confusion you seemed to have about how a country can be both multi ethnic and majority white. There is no conflict there. That applies for pretty much every single major Western, central, northern and southern European country now.

Not really sure what your argument about the free movement is there. I actually personally would love something close to global free movement. And

No. My god, your eurocentric view is so ensconced that you genuinely cannot see that it wouldn't be discrimination. It would be a level playing field that they want. They don't want to discriminate against Europeans vs people from their original country.

They want non Europeans to have the same opportunity when it comes to applying for jobs in the UK as Europeans do. This is not currently the case. Is it different in France? Can a Zambian just rock up in France without a visa and start looking for a job? Can an Uzbekistani? How about a German or Spaniard?

Do I have to bring up, for the billionth time, the difficulties my Egyptian in law family have compared to my Dutch in laws when it comes to studying and working? You can be honest and just explicitly say that you think that's totally fine. That Egyptians or Zambians or Japanese or whomever shouldn't get the same rights. I honestly won't judge. But pretending it doesn't happen or that somebody wanting the same rights as Europeans get automatically for their own (non European) people is racist is just not right.

And who in your mind is wriggling and squirming on this page?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Can you point me to an example, either on this page or elsewhere, where I've misunderstood the meaning of xenophobia?

I know you don't dispute that the countries are multi ethnic. Just clearing up the confusion you seemed to have about how a country can be both multi ethnic and majority white. There is no conflict there. That applies for pretty much every single major Western, central, northern and southern European country now.

Not really sure what your argument about the free movement is there. I actually personally would love something close to global free movement. And

No. My god, your eurocentric view is so ensconced that you genuinely cannot see that it wouldn't be discrimination. It would be a level playing field that they want. They don't want to discriminate against Europeans vs people from their original country.

They want non Europeans to have the same opportunity when it comes to applying for jobs in the UK as Europeans do. This is not currently the case. Is it different in France? Can a Zambian just rock up in France without a visa and start looking for a job? Can an Uzbekistani? How about a German or Spaniard?

Do I have to bring up, for the billionth time, the difficulties my Egyptian in law family have compared to my Dutch in laws when it comes to studying and working? You can be honest and just explicitly say that you think that's totally fine. That Egyptians or Zambians or Japanese or whomever shouldn't get the same rights. I honestly won't judge. But pretending it doesn't happen or that somebody wanting the same rights as Europeans get automatically for their own (non European) people is racist is just not right.

And who in your mind is wriggling and squirming on this page?

As I have in vain tried to explain that the reason Europeans had the right to freedom of movement, provided they could support themselves, was that the agreement was signed between members of the EU for the freedom of movement of labour, capital, goods and services. It works very well for the majority of European countries especially being so geographically close, not because they are majority white.
So when Zambia or Egypt or Uzbekistan sign up to the same type of agreement now that the UK have left the EU maybe they can have freedom of movement as well .

Signing a FTA with India will almost certainly involve some sort of freedom of movement, just hope that the other Brexiters are of the same mindset.

We seem to be going round in circles with you confusing racism and xenophobia and you were the one who brought up white people and keep going on about it. You also laugh at British white people thinking they've reduced immigration but can't see that the people you are apologising for are doing exactly the same thing.

What really interests me is whether the people you are defending who voted for Brexit did not consider the other consequences of their vote. All that worried them was whether they thought their aunty's cousin could have a minutely better chance to move to the UK but had no consideration for the problems the economy would suffer or the problems in Ireland or the thousands of other problems the UK has brought upon itself which will become apparent gradually over the coming months and years with an especially sharp shock in January. After all , presumably they are going to have to live with those consequences .

 

[Buster15]

Is that a real person?

He seems to behave like he was back at school and clapping like a demented school boy.
But you can see the love in his eyes for whoever or whatever he is clapping like an idiot for.
Gawd knows what he thinks he is doing.

 

[calodo2003]

He seems to behave like he was back at school and clapping like a demented school boy.
But you can see the love in his eyes for whoever or whatever he is clapping like an idiot for.
Gawd knows what he thinks he is doing.

Any clue who he was fawning over?

 

[Buster15]

Any clue who he was fawning over?

I wish I knew but possibly someone telling more lies about Brexit.

 

[calodo2003]

I wish I knew but undoubtedly someone telling more lies about Brexit.

Fixed it for you.

 

[esmufc07]

Any clue who he was fawning over?

Think it was over May at one of the Party Conferences.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Think it was over May at one of the Party Conferences.

That was the Return of the Clap, not the original I thought?

 

[africanspur]

As I have in vain tried to explain that the reason Europeans had the right to freedom of movement, provided they could support themselves, was that the agreement was signed between members of the EU for the freedom of movement of labour, capital, goods and services. It works very well for the majority of European countries especially being so geographically close, not because they are majority white.
So when Zambia or Egypt or Uzbekistan sign up to the same type of agreement now that the UK have left the EU maybe they can have freedom of movement as well .

Signing a FTA with India will almost certainly involve some sort of freedom of movement, just hope that the other Brexiters are of the same mindset.

We seem to be going round in circles with you confusing racism and xenophobia and you were the one who brought up white people and keep going on about it. You also laugh at British white people thinking they've reduced immigration but can't see that the people you are apologising for are doing exactly the same thing.

What really interests me is whether the people you are defending who voted for Brexit did not consider the other consequences of their vote. All that worried them was whether they thought their aunty's cousin could have a minutely better chance to move to the UK but had no consideration for the problems the economy would suffer or the problems in Ireland or the thousands of other problems the UK has brought upon itself which will become apparent gradually over the coming months and years with an especially sharp shock in January. After all , presumably they are going to have to live with those consequences .

Yes, an elementary school child could tell you that. I didn't say that they signed it because they are majority white, I said that they are limited to white majority European countries. Hence your phrase about you not caring who your neighbour is...is quite moot. Most Europeans will have a white neighbour, regardless of where they live.

Signing an agreement with India will almost certainly open up more visa opportunities for their citizens, which, as we've both said, Im sure a portion of the population will not be happy with.

How am I confusing racism and xenophobia, when I don't think the people in question are showing either? How are the people 'I'm apologising for' (Im apologising for nothing by the way, as their decision has nothing to do with me. I'm merely trying to explain, in the face of total intransigence, why some people made the decision they did, even if I do not agree). You have decided that pretty much everyone who voted a certain way is a slobbering racist/xenophobe and have arguably one of the most patronising approaches I've encountered on this board so, you're right, this is a bit of a waste of time and, in fairness, totally my fault for engaging in the first place, knowing full well the precedent you have set.

Like many other Brexiteers, I doubt many of them thought through their decision either, no. But then again, I have never really claimed this, nor do I have any particular intention to continue to explain the motives of a group of people who have made a move I am diametrically opposed to. What I do reject is to label them all racist and the ridiculous arrogance of not even being able to accept a line of thinking as legitimate, even if you yourself do not agree with it at all.

 

[africanspur]

That was the Return of the Clap, not the original I thought?

He's literally one of the dweebiest and most disgusting people in the cabinet. Though admittedly I tend to find myself thinking this every time I see any one of them pop up on my screen.

 

[africanspur]

I think it was pretty obvious to anyone listening to both sides. It was always a fairy tale to cut immigration to the low 10's of thousands and if those immigrants weren't to come out of the EU they'd always come from non EU countries...

A service economy tailored to the needs of the elite; where government contracts go to those with connections to the ruling party, and the laws are made to suit them. Those contracts can be made without any checks other than by the civil servants who've been repeatedly whipped by that same ruling party. Consumer manufacturing will be limited to goods that are high margin or can survive in the UK market alone (others will still be allowed to sell in Europe, but they won't be competitive), and far away lands won't make up for it. Exporting services, crucial to the UK, will be hit even worse. By the time Boris' current premiership is over the UK economy will be a very different one to that of 2015.

It isn't impossible for Britain to reinvent itself and find other ways to prosperity. But so far I've seen very little actual evidence of that happening. The tories plan so far is to stay in every part of europe they fancy and cry and piss their pants anytime someone tells them no. That won't help much from january on.

I think it was pretty obvious to anyone listening to both sides. It was always a fairy tale to cut immigration to the low 10's of thousands and if those immigrants weren't to come out of the EU they'd always come from non EU countries...

A service economy tailored to the needs of the elite; where government contracts go to those with connections to the ruling party, and the laws are made to suit them. Those contracts can be made without any checks other than by the civil servants who've been repeatedly whipped by that same ruling party. Consumer manufacturing will be limited to goods that are high margin or can survive in the UK market alone (others will still be allowed to sell in Europe, but they won't be competitive), and far away lands won't make up for it. Exporting services, crucial to the UK, will be hit even worse. By the time Boris' current premiership is over the UK economy will be a very different one to that of 2015.

It isn't impossible for Britain to reinvent itself and find other ways to prosperity. But so far I've seen very little actual evidence of that happening. The tories plan so far is to stay in every part of europe they fancy and cry and piss their pants anytime someone tells them no. That won't help much from january on.

I think it was obvious for those with at least some common sense but I would say there was a reasonable minority who genuinely thought we'd be slashing immigration.

As for the rest of the post, fair enough. I can't pretend I'm an economic expert and honestly, I think I'm too emotionally exhausted to still be as devastated as I was initially! I obviously hope that won't come to pass but we'll see.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yes, an elementary school child could tell you that. I didn't say that they signed it because they are majority white, I said that they are limited to white majority European countries. Hence your phrase about you not caring who your neighbour is...is quite moot. Most Europeans will have a white neighbour, regardless of where they live.

Signing an agreement with India will almost certainly open up more visa opportunities for their citizens, which, as we've both said, Im sure a portion of the population will not be happy with.

How am I confusing racism and xenophobia, when I don't think the people in question are showing either? How are the people 'I'm apologising for' (Im apologising for nothing by the way, as their decision has nothing to do with me. I'm merely trying to explain, in the face of total intransigence, why some people made the decision they did, even if I do not agree). You have decided that pretty much everyone who voted a certain way is a slobbering racist/xenophobe and have arguably one of the most patronising approaches I've encountered on this board so, you're right, this is a bit of a waste of time and, in fairness, totally my fault for engaging in the first place, knowing full well the precedent you have set.

Like many other Brexiteers, I doubt many of them thought through their decision either, no. But then again, I have never really claimed this, nor do I have any particular intention to continue to explain the motives of a group of people who have made a move I am diametrically opposed to. What I do reject is to label them all racist and the ridiculous arrogance of not even being able to accept a line of thinking as legitimate, even if you yourself do not agree with it at all.

So why mention white at all, it's the European Union, a union between European countries. You're making it up as you go along.

No I don't think they are all racists or xenophobes, some certainly are , I actually think they are uninformed ignorant morons, maybe that helps. Xenophobia and racism are parts of that.
But you don't think that people who voted to stop people of other nationalities being able to benefit isn't xenophobic, right.

Your words; One thing I'd tried to explain on here in the past, whilst trying to move past stereotypes, regarding why some people from immigrant backgrounds voted for Brexit is that, in their own words, they didn't feel it was right that a Frenchman or Italian should have it so much easier to come here than an Indian or Egyptian.

India and Egypt were not in and never will be in the EU.

So now the UK have left the EU and the UK's, especially the Tories, intention is for overall immigration to be one third of what is is today . So they voted for Brexit because they were unbelievably stupid? Don't tell me, they voted for the Tories as well.

I remember you also saying that not all people who voted for Brexit were stupid and some were even intelligent and some voted for Brexit because of EU bureaucracy. Surprise!

 

[africanspur]

So why mention white at all, it's the European Union, a union between European countries. You're making it up as you go along.

No I don't think they are all racists or xenophobes, some certainly are , I actually think they are uninformed ignorant morons, maybe that helps. Xenophobia and racism are parts of that.
But you don't think that people who voted to stop people of other nationalities being able to benefit isn't xenophobic, right.

Your words; One thing I'd tried to explain on here in the past, whilst trying to move past stereotypes, regarding why some people from immigrant backgrounds voted for Brexit is that, in their own words, they didn't feel it was right that a Frenchman or Italian should have it so much easier to come here than an Indian or Egyptian.

India and Egypt were not in and never will be in the EU.

So now the UK have left the EU and the UK's, especially the Tories, intention is for overall immigration to be one third of what is is today . So they voted for Brexit because they were unbelievably stupid? Don't tell me, they voted for the Tories as well.

I remember you also saying that not all people who voted for Brexit were stupid and some were even intelligent and some voted for Brexit because of EU bureaucracy. Surprise!

As usual Paul, I feel myself draining brain cells while engaging with you as you continue to totally and utterly miss the point. The fact that you think it is an unquestionable right that a European should always have preference over a non-European, so much so that them not having that is 'discrimination' in your eyes, shows incredible privilege.

I'm sure you'll never see that though or understand the often humiliating processes we go through (and I went through when first arriving in Europe or my FiL did or my wife's newphew did) to be allowed into these countries, even for a holiday (and no, I don't think the UK will change that after Brexit before you make yet another snide remark).

As I said though, it was my mistake for engaging in the first place. I've genuinely had more fruitful discussions with people on here who have diametrically opposed views to me on race, politics, football, religion, Covid, pretty much everything. Yet my most frustrating discussions on here have to be the Brexit ones with you, even though we would have voted the same way. Mind boggling.

And maybe the Bale vs Nani ones too actually......

 

[TheGame]

 

[africanspur]

Scum is too kind a word.

 

[Smores]

Hancock out to spin their new line of argument this morning that because they fund councils then the government have already done what Rashford wanted

There were more and more of those graphics on council funding appearing over the weekend on twitter.

 

[2mufc0]

Morally bankrupt is the least you can say about this lot.

 

[TheGame]

Boris lying again, surely not:

 

[Pexbo]

Boris lying again, surely not:

I fecking knew this would be the case when Hancock said it this morning. You could tell by the way he answered the question that he was lying and they didn’t follow it up at all. They really should have asked “what communication? who with and what was being discussed?”

 

[Paul the Wolf]

As usual Paul, I feel myself draining brain cells while engaging with you as you continue to totally and utterly miss the point. The fact that you think it is an unquestionable right that a European should always have preference over a non-European, so much so that them not having that is 'discrimination' in your eyes, shows incredible privilege.

I'm sure you'll never see that though or understand the often humiliating processes we go through (and I went through when first arriving in Europe or my FiL did or my wife's newphew did) to be allowed into these countries, even for a holiday (and no, I don't think the UK will change that after Brexit before you make yet another snide remark).

As I said though, it was my mistake for engaging in the first place. I've genuinely had more fruitful discussions with people on here who have diametrically opposed views to me on race, politics, football, religion, Covid, pretty much everything. Yet my most frustrating discussions on here have to be the Brexit ones with you, even though we would have voted the same way. Mind boggling.

And maybe the Bale vs Nani ones too actually......

Perhaps you should start using a few brain cells, might help. You have completely missed the point for the nth time.

Where did I say that Europeans should have privilege over non-Europeans, Where did I say that the process is not arduous and humiliating in the UK.
The Uk was in a union that was conditional on the four freedoms, they are not going to enter into a similar one allowing freedom of movement of Zambians or Uzbekistanis

These people voted for Brexit, for whatever reason, the result of which will stop Europeans gaining easier access to the UK, fine, if that is the intention of your voters. So discriminating against certain nationalities. If we can't have it, nor can they - even though the people who voted this already have British citizenship , if not they wouldn't have been able to vote.
Whereas there were British born people living abroad who couldn't vote, there were EU nationals who had made their lives in the UK but never took the step to take British citizenship because they didn't think they needed to and couldn't vote. The same for British people living in the EU.

So at the end of the day, these voters have voted for leaving the EU, - outcome of which all Brexiters insist they knew what they voted for- no the process for non-EU immigrants has not been easier, yes the economy will collapse, yes the currency will collapse, yes the bureacracy will be unseen in your lifetime, the difficulties of importing and exporting goods and services will be unbelievably difficult and all the thousands of things that were taken for granted until the end of this year will be finished forever.

Maybe they should write to their MP telling Johnson and Dominic that they fulfilled their part of the bargain by wilfully trying to destroy the UK's economy , trying to cause trouble in Ireland and why... because my aunty's cousin wants a better chance of being able to live in the UK.

Hey Dom, says Johnson, got another one of these crank letters, you were right, the electorate are as dumb as you said they were. Yes Boris, they confirmed that by voting you in with an 80 seat majoirty

 

[Sweet Square]