I’ll debate with other posters, not you because you can’t do it without through insults around.
Westminster Politics
- Thread starter altodevil
- Start date
I’ll debate with other posters, not you because you can’t do it without through insults around.
Tell someone else then , promise I won't look.
Taking back control from the EU is a big one. As is being able to make trade deals with the rest
of the world. But the fact is that because of the way the EU has been blamed for pretty much everything that goes wrong, Boris was preaching to the converted.
Yes but real ones, control of what that wasn't already under their control. The manifesto promised 80% of their trade deals with FTAs within 3 years and as the EU and USA make up about 80% of the UK's trade....
In my book lies don't count so copy and pasting an EU negotiated deal with Japan and adding Stilton cheese , which Japan have not yet signed, doesn't really cut the mustard, so to speak.
If I were Boris I'd legalise cannabis in the UK tomorrow just to see if that necessitated a hard border between NI and ROI.
Now just imagine the reaction if this was a Labour administration...
FinCEN Files: Tory donor Lubov Chernukhin linked to $8m Putin ally funding
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54228079
Been saying it for ages, Putin has Boris by the balls.
FinCEN Files: Tory donor Lubov Chernukhin linked to $8m Putin ally funding
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54228079
Been saying it for ages, Putin has Boris by the balls.
It doesn’t even surprise me anymore, I honestly don’t get how anyone can defend this anymore but they do and I’m sure they will.
Totally agree. The whole process has been a farce. I'm not even particularly fond of the EU, but the way the UK has conducted itself is a diagrace and will not stand us in good stead when negotiating future deals with other nations. It seems "head in the sand" is the default position for those supporting Brexit at any cost.
The accepted definition of what brexit is has changed so many times, it shows that it is all based on rhetoric. In 2016 we were told it would be impossible that we wouldn't get a deal. Mercedes, BMW etc want to sell us their cars. No deal was out of the question. Now we are teetering on the edge of a no deal brexit and that is being sold to us as a great thing for the nation. Ridiculous.
It really is. Typifies the Brexit negotiation tactics too, ironically.
Brexit was started from lies and to cover the lies they had to invent more lies and it has snowballed to such a point that they can't even remember which lies they've told.
Even the German car myth was so ridiculous if people just thought about it for 5 minutes or bothered to inform themselves. They will still sell their cars with or without a deal, they might become more expensive for British people , there may be delays, spare parts will take longer to reach dealers etc but a luxury car purchaser won't be so troubled about paying 80k instead of 70k for example.
Of course German car manufacturers would prefer that they could sell their cars without import/export controls but it's only one market.
Whereas the industry in biggest danger is actually the British car manufacturers, who are just about all foreign owned - why keep the factories in the UK if it causes so many problems and delays exporting them. The only reason to keep any there would be for the British market but even then the parts have to cross borders several times to assemble them. Cars are currently the top UK export worldwide - why endanger that?
Even the argument about the UK having individually styled trade deals to suit them better actually shows itself to be a joke with the Japan deal. What it apparently means is they want to sell a few British products worth a few million as well as the normal trade deal the EU negotiated.
But that doesn't mean that the UK have actually sold cornish pasties or stilton cheese to Japan, they have got a concession from Japan to reduce the tariffs on those products but the customers in Japan have still got to want to buy them. In exchange what has been the concession been to Japan, that they can sell more cars to the UK?
But Brexiters knew exactly what they voted for - only they aren't able to say what it is.
No sorry, the EU were not simply insisting that the border had to be in the Irish sea as if it was a demand from their side, it was simply the case that an Irish sea border was the only way that Brexit could conceivably happen without shattering the GFA into a million pieces. The GFA was only possible BECAUSE the UK was in the EU. It created a fudge whereby Republicans in the North could feel part of the Republic and Unionists could feel part of the Union with no meaningful border to disabuse that notion. As soon as you decide that the UK isn't part of the EU there must once again be a border, and the idea that there shouldn't be is even nonsensical to the Brexiter side too. How can you claim to be a totally independent country with control of your own borders while simultaneously demanding that you don't have a border?
The UK government agreed it it, because they had no choice. It was that or put up a border on mainland Ireland and almost certainly restart the conflict. By now trying to renege on that agreement and get rid of the sea border they agreed to, all they're doing is returning everyone to the same quandary they were in back before the withdrawal agreement was negotiated. It's insane because there is nothing new that is going to magically resolve that problem. The only answers are still sea border or land border. I suspect this time however the UK will simply try and fudge and force the EU & Ireland to be the ones to choose to either put up a land border or not, in a cowardly attempt to pass responsibility.
The cost is going to be a hard Brexit though, but then again half the Tory party seems to want that anyway, so it should hardly be a surprise.
practically speaking though the onus is on both sides to implement a border isnt it?
I keep hearing that it the UK does not do this they will be open to legal action and potentially economic sanctions so surely the Irish Government face the same dilema dont they - implement the border and risk the GFA or face the same potential legal actions / sanctions
It would be a lot more sensible if the UK did what it had agreed but I dont think thats a likely option (they either fudge a deal that allows both sides to spin a victory or they go hard brexit and say we wont implement a hard border then what do the EU / Ireland do - either implement the border themselves and then probably take a lot of the blame if the GFA collapses or they do nothing (and any legal case they take againt the UK the UK takes the same action against them) - its a mess but would the EU / Ireland implement the border unilaterally?
Well said. Curse the Irish for voting for an action without any idea on how to implement it.
To be fair they have had a long time to plan for this and seem to have more competent leadership than the UK so Im guessing they have a plan / policy in place? (and presumably one that does not break international law?)
Last edited:
The legal action and economic sanctions are not for not implementing a border on the island of Ireland but not maintaining the international treaty that has been agreed to. I.e. not respecting the fact that the customs border from January 1st is in the Irish Sea and no amount of denying that by the British government changes it. The UK nor the EU can put a customs border on the island of Ireland because that isn't where it is.
actually that will be down to the how the UK approach it
If they choose to activate the dispute mechanism under the WA prior to deviating in law from the treaty and demand independent arbitration because the EU has acted in bad faith then they would not be bound by the treaty - (or at least thats what Geoffry cox was claiming on a podcast last week) - Personally I still expect some last minute fudge but if not then I suspect legal action is inevitable and in my experience if you get enough lawyers and chuck enough money at it most things are open to interpretation and a long process is ensured ... it sounds a little disingenuous as an argument but what cox claims may well have enough to trigger a several year court case - and then what happens in the meantime?
hopefully its is a huge mess and we can admit we messed up and get round to rejoining asap (if the eu will even have us back)
I keep hearing the term bad faith, but what bad faith, another Johnson invention and that has nothing to do with a trade deal, any problems the UK cause ,imagine the problems the UK will have at the other ports if this goes badly especially with a long drawn out court case. Then the EU will punish the UK as Brexiters seem to be desperate for.. But as the Uk are determined to commit suicide anything is possible I suppose.
Edit: Imagine another scenario where the UK say they are not bound by the Withdrawal Agreement.
Boris Johnson's address to the nation: "Dear Brexiters, you know we left the EU on 31st January 2020, well actually we haven't left because nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" Oh the hysteria!
Last edited:
That is never going to happen.
Not until at least a couple of decades of economic crash for the UK anyway.
I'm going with 2 election cycles before its on the Labour manifesto if brexit is a total shambles
You want to know the one thing where Britain has real short-term leverage and the EU are actually (mildly) shitting themselves (according to a friend of mine working at/with the ECB)? It's their reliance on London for Euro clearing and the financial stability of the Eurozone. There just isn't the capacity in EU clearing houses to process the scale of transactions needed, and won't be until at least 2022.
Just today the EU confirmed it will have to extend access to UK clearing houses for another 18 months: https://www.reuters.com/article/bri...cessive-reliance-on-uk-clearers-idUSL5N2GI32S
If there is a hard and acrimonious Brexit at the end of the year, would you trust the UK government/Bank of England with this kind of financial nuclear button over EU banks? It's a systemic risk for the EU right now.
Just today the EU confirmed it will have to extend access to UK clearing houses for another 18 months: https://www.reuters.com/article/bri...cessive-reliance-on-uk-clearers-idUSL5N2GI32S
If there is a hard and acrimonious Brexit at the end of the year, would you trust the UK government/Bank of England with this kind of financial nuclear button over EU banks? It's a systemic risk for the EU right now.
Good post, wouldn't surprise me if this is the Hail Mary pass that Johnson will play at the last minute.
I don't think they could in reality, as it would be the beginning of the end of the UK as a financial centre. Perhaps they could do some things with regulation and tax to upset the EU, but they aren't going to want to destroy the credibility of the City as a trusted international financial centre.
Alright Nostradamus. I won't hold my breath.
Dodgy as hell. Not the first red flag either to anyone paying attention.
But at least they kept that commie Corbyn out. *facepalm*
The FT published a good piece looking at some of the issues the EU face this morning: https://www.ft.com/content/dd7e6828-f603-47bf-bdd7-61e9dcb5f9ac
Good article, managed to find it without the paywall.
British politics makes perfect sense when you realize it's all about older people hating the young
Allison Pearson is just Katie Hopkins without a 40 year diet of cigarettes, gin and stomach acid.
Today's PMQ. As usual, Boris seems completely unable to either listen to or comprehend the very clear questions that Starmer is asking.
Yes I know it is a typical politicians response.
But Boris does himself no favours at all by playing silly and childish games. PMQs are an important and the most accessable part of our parliamentary process.
But the way Boris treats this forum underscores his lack of competence.
Yes I know it is a typical politicians response.
But Boris does himself no favours at all by playing silly and childish games. PMQs are an important and the most accessable part of our parliamentary process.
But the way Boris treats this forum underscores his lack of competence.
Starmer: “You have failed to fund and support the NHS”
Boris: “I find it absolutely reprehensible that you would attack the hard working doctors, nurses and cancer patients of the NHS like that and urge you to apologise and withdraw the statement”
It gets very tiring and very boring very quickly.
Shame the knighted gimp appointed a private healthcare lobbyist to the job his new shadow cabinet spent 5 years describing as 'the real Labour leader', or he could point out the whole Serco thing. Oh well, I'm sure Johnson will stop calling it NHS Test and Trace any day now.
Last edited:
How does not having a budget work? Everyone just spends what they like and tally up afterwards?
(Sky said the UK government isn't putting out a budget because of covid)
(Sky said the UK government isn't putting out a budget because of covid)
thats pretty much what has happened so far isnt it?
lets hope its something helpful
I have staff who are high risk and I'd like to see support extended for them
And something like the german scheme where the government will help with short time working for a while would be good
Would also be nice to see council drop the rates for commercial properties that cant be used or used fully as well
Yes, or just some free money/food for me please. I am prepared to help out by eating.
I had been under the impression that the chancellor creates a budget and the rest work within those budgetary restrictions.