Westminster Politics

ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
You realise you sound like a conspiracy theorist?

Trying to burn the economy! We all have different opinions, and different political opinions, and thank goodness for that. But when you say things like this, is just makes your opinion very easy to dismiss.
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If, 12 months ago, I had told you the govenrment would unlawfully suspend parliament to avoid checks and balances on a Brexit deal, then months later would propose a bill to void that same deal, breaking international law, you would have called me a conspiracy theorist then too.

These are the actions of a government alienating our 2 key trading partners, both the EU and the US. They are showing scant disregard for the UK economy, it is either extreme incompetence to a degree of which we have never before seen, or it is them actively working to jeopardise the future of the UK. Are you leaning towards incompetence?
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
If, 12 months ago, I had told you the govenrment would unlawfully suspend parliament to avoid checks and balances on a Brexit deal, then months later would propose a bill to void that same deal, breaking international law, you would have called me a conspiracy theorist then too.

These are the actions of a government alienating our 2 key trading partners, both the EU and the US. They are showing scant disregard for the UK economy, it is either extreme incompetence to a degree of which we have never before seen, or it is them actively working to jeopardise the future of the UK. Are you leaning towards incompetence?
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If I told you 12 months ago 20 million people would be paid 80% of their wages to stay home for 3 months so they can complete Netflix what would you say?

We aren’t alienating either the EU or USA. It’s negotiations, and each side wants to present a view that they are stronger than the other. Furthermore, you can’t say we are alienating the US, because a candidate for the presidency tweets something, which frankly is somewhat uneducated.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
If I told you 12 months ago 20 million people would be paid 80% of their wages to stay home for 3 months so they can complete Netflix what would you say?

We aren’t alienating either the EU or USA. It’s negotiations, and each side wants to present a view that they are stronger than the other. Furthermore, you can’t say we are alienating the US, because a candidate for the presidency tweets something, which frankly is somewhat uneducated.
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Yes we had to be put on furlough or otherwise unemployment would be at the highest ever recorded so it’s a weird counter point to be honest, let’s not make it sound like they’re being super generous when countries with much smaller economies like Vietnam have offered strong furlough schemes and some countries are continuing it until the end of 2021.

I mean we are alienating the USA and there have been multiple warnings from them about breaching the GFA and a potential trade deal for a while now (remember they’re the guarantor), so it’s disingenuous to say that it’s just about a tweet, and saying we aren’t alienating the EU is laughable when that’s what we have been doing for years now.
 
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Berbasbullet said:
Yes we had to be put on furlough or otherwise I’m employment would be at the highest ever recorded so it’s a weird counter point to be honest, let’s not make it sound like they’re being super generous when countries with much smaller economies like Vietnam have offered strong furlough schemes and some countries are continuing it until the end of 2021.

I mean we are alienating the USA and there have been multiple warnings from them about breaching the GFA and a potential trade deal for a while now (remember they’re the guarantor), so it’s disingenuous to say that it’s just about a tweet, and saying we aren’t alienating the EU is laughable when that’s what we have been doing for years now.
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We aren’t alienating the US.

The point is, it’s ridiculous to take a viewpoint in the past and project it into the future, and claim that as some sort of moral high ground. Things change, the political landscape changes, and the perfect (although horrendous) example is Corona. Decisions made a year ago, 2 years ago, 5 years ago need to be evaluated in today’s climate.

What amuses me about the negotiations with the EU, are those people who will lap up the rhetoric form the EU, and can’t comprehend that it’s two sides who are negotiating, and both trying to save face and project their own interests.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
If I told you 12 months ago 20 million people would be paid 80% of their wages to stay home for 3 months so they can complete Netflix what would you say?
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The NHS is reported to have failed a government test of its ability to handle a pandemic, though the finding were not made public. Exercise Cygnus, a three-day dry run for a pandemic carried out in October 2016, examined how hospitals and other services would cope in a flu outbreak with a similar mortality rate to coronavirus.

According to the Sunday Telegraph, ministers were told three years ago that Britain would be overwhelmed, suffering a lack of critical care beds, morgue capacity and personal protective equipment.

Boyd said politicians found it tough to deliver large-scale preventive policies to a public unconcerned about major risks. “[They] often talk the talk but find it hard to walk the walk of the changes needed. As they are currently structured, governments are hopelessly underpowered to implement the about-turn needed on policy.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ress-pandemic-threat-not-properly-implemented
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ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
We aren’t alienating the US.

The point is, it’s ridiculous to take a viewpoint in the past and project it into the future, and claim that as some sort of moral high ground. Things change, the political landscape changes, and the perfect (although horrendous) example is Corona. Decisions made a year ago, 2 years ago, 5 years ago need to be evaluated in today’s climate.

What amuses me about the negotiations with the EU, are those people who will lap up the rhetoric form the EU, and can’t comprehend that it’s two sides who are negotiating, and both trying to save face and project their own interests.
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What is the rhetoric from the EU . This Bill introduced by Johnson has erased all trust with the EU. Breaking or trying to amend the WA is not a negotiation. A FTA is almost impossible now, a massive humiliating climbdown from Johnson is the only chance.
If the GFA is threatened in any way a FTA with the US will be impossible too, these are not negotiating tactics it's sheer incompetence by the British government.
The UK is now in serious trouble and I find it baffling how anyone still tries to defend their actions.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
What is the rhetoric from the EU . This Bill introduced by Johnson has erased all trust with the EU. Breaking or trying to amend the WA is not a negotiation. A FTA is almost impossible now, a massive humiliating climbdown from Johnson is the only chance.
If the GFA is threatened in any way a FTA with the US will be impossible too, these are not negotiating tactics it's sheer incompetence by the British government.
The UK is now in serious trouble and I find it baffling how anyone still tries to defend their actions.
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The issue is that there are so many that will bash the government no matter what they do. You have the EU who are not necessarily acting in good faith, but in this country we are more than happy to blame our own side and acquiesce to whatever the EU come out with.

These are all just negotiation tactics, and a bit like the transfer window we need to wait until the end to see what the result will be.

I’m certainly not saying we are doing a great job, but let’s also consider that the EU is trying every trick in the book to make it difficult for us to leave on good terms. Their aim is to show the rest of the EU countries that they will be punished for leaving, to prevent a break up. That’s very transparent.

I find it strange so many unquestionably believe Barnier every time over our side.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
The issue is that there are so many that will bash the government no matter what they do. You have the EU who are not necessarily acting in good faith, but in this country we are more than happy to blame our own side and acquiesce to whatever the EU come out with.

These are all just negotiation tactics, and a bit like the transfer window we need to wait until the end to see what the result will be.

I’m certainly not saying we are doing a great job, but let’s also consider that the EU is trying every trick in the book to make it difficult for us to leave on good terms. Their aim is to show the rest of the EU countries that they will be punished for leaving, to prevent a break up. That’s very transparent.

I find it strange so many unquestionably believe Barnier every time over our side.
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The not acting in good faith sounds like something from the Daily Express or Johnson. In what way are they not acting in good faith? the Customs border is in the Irish Sea, that's what Johnson agreed to and has tried to wriggle out of it ever since. The agreement is in place and will not be renegotiated.
Of course the only other alternative as stated five years ago was the customs border being on the actual border but nobody wants that.

Then you hear terms like blockade, it's so pathetic, no-one seems to realise that NI will remain in the EU Customs Union and there's no border between Ireland and NI so they're not being starved out.

But at the end of the day if the UK doesn't want a trade deal with the EU nor the USA then just carry on as they are, it's that simple.

Barnier doesn't make the decisions , his instructions come from the 27 Heads of State. He'll carry on with the negotiations as it's his job but realistically few people in the EU expect a deal and it's not one of the major priorities any longer.
You can't trust the British government , that is Johnson's message loud and clear.

As the UK is supposedly totally in control the EU can't punish them, the UK chose to do this. There's no way any other country will leave. It's British media nonsense.
 
Sweet Square said:
?

5-8 point when I looked.
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Yeah, Tories have an 8 point lead in this group, which is the closest lead in any age group. Other groups are much more emphatically one way or the other. So if Labour is going to make gains, age group wise, they should look at this group, especially if the economy tanks even further with Brexit.
 
The Mail saying that Sunak is floating the idea of freezing benefits and public sector pay. Can't say I'm surprised since we all thought this would be the strategy (it always is).
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
We aren’t alienating the US.

The point is, it’s ridiculous to take a viewpoint in the past and project it into the future, and claim that as some sort of moral high ground. Things change, the political landscape changes, and the perfect (although horrendous) example is Corona. Decisions made a year ago, 2 years ago, 5 years ago need to be evaluated in today’s climate.

What amuses me about the negotiations with the EU, are those people who will lap up the rhetoric form the EU, and can’t comprehend that it’s two sides who are negotiating, and both trying to save face and project their own interests.
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Just as ridiculous as dismissing the possibility that elements within this government may have an incentive to achieve a no deal brexit. Which was the original point before you went on a massive tangent.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
The issue is that there are so many that will bash the government no matter what they do. You have the EU who are not necessarily acting in good faith, but in this country we are more than happy to blame our own side and acquiesce to whatever the EU come out with.

These are all just negotiation tactics, and a bit like the transfer window we need to wait until the end to see what the result will be.

I’m certainly not saying we are doing a great job, but let’s also consider that the EU is trying every trick in the book to make it difficult for us to leave on good terms. Their aim is to show the rest of the EU countries that they will be punished for leaving, to prevent a break up. That’s very transparent.

I find it strange so many unquestionably believe Barnier every time over our side.
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We can see with our own eyes and our own Tory MP's are saying in parliament that we will break international law.

If anything, the problem is that you are viewing this like a transfer window, but you are blindly supporting your "club".
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
We can see with our own eyes and our own Tory MP's are saying in parliament that we will break international law.

If anything, the problem is that you are viewing this like a transfer window, but you are blindly supporting your "club".
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And yet the government easily passed the first stage this week.

There’s a deadline, there’s negotiation, posturing, mixed messaging and 99% of what happens we don’t see. Very much like a transfer window.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
The issue is that there are so many that will bash the government no matter what they do. You have the EU who are not necessarily acting in good faith, but in this country we are more than happy to blame our own side and acquiesce to whatever the EU come out with.

These are all just negotiation tactics, and a bit like the transfer window we need to wait until the end to see what the result will be.

I’m certainly not saying we are doing a great job, but let’s also consider that the EU is trying every trick in the book to make it difficult for us to leave on good terms. Their aim is to show the rest of the EU countries that they will be punished for leaving, to prevent a break up. That’s very transparent.

I find it strange so many unquestionably believe Barnier every time over our side.
Click to expand...

The basic questions about the negotiations are missed in the discussion because everyone has picked a side and that is that. For example, is it right to demand the UK gives up its EEZ as a prerequisite for talks about a trade deal. In all honesty the answer to that is probably no but you won't find anyone even mentioning the international law that seeks to circumvent because it is the EU side making that demand.

The GFA does not say the UK has to remain in the EU and any change to border arrangements has to be agreed by all parties but the EU demand for a border in the Irish Sea is a change to border arrangements which doesn't have universal support.

The UK govt has been all over the place on what it wants to do so I wouldn't support them or their approach though.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
The basic questions about the negotiations are missed in the discussion because everyone has picked a side and that is that. For example, is it right to demand the UK gives up its EEZ as a prerequisite for talks about a trade deal. In all honesty the answer to that is probably no but you won't find anyone even mentioning the international law that seeks to circumvent because it is the EU side making that demand.

The GFA does not say the UK has to remain in the EU and any change to border arrangements has to be agreed by all parties but the EU demand for a border in the Irish Sea is a change to border arrangements which doesn't have universal support.

The UK govt has been all over the place on what it wants to do so I wouldn't support them or their approach though.
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I agree about people taking sides and sticking to them. This is one of the challenges, in that there’s still a proportion of people in the UK who want to frustrate and delay the process.

In fairness to the government, the two biggest issues for a generation have come at the same time.

The EU is united behind their negotiations, and in wanting to make it as difficult as possible for the UK. The UK is the opposite of United, and this clearly has made it more difficult. At least with a big majority, we have a stronger hand rather than the debacle of having the Tories and the DUP in bed together.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I agree about people taking sides and sticking to them. This is one of the challenges, in that there’s still a proportion of people in the UK who want to frustrate and delay the process.

In fairness to the government, the two biggest issues for a generation have come at the same time.

The EU is united behind their negotiations, and in wanting to make it as difficult as possible for the UK. The UK is the opposite of United, and this clearly has made it more difficult. At least with a big majority, we have a stronger hand rather than the debacle of having the Tories and the DUP in bed together.
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The negotiations for the Withdrawal Agreement are over, the UK and the EU have both agreed the terms , signed them and ratified them. To change them is not even possible.

If the UK want a trade deal with the EU , with the USA, with Australia or with Uncle Tom Cobley they will have to accept the terms of that agreement and of the partner they are dealing with. If they don't like it then just go away from the negotiations. Looks like this will be a recurring theme.

What majority the Tories have is completely irrelevant , a stronger hand to do what? What process is being delayed and by whom. Where should the customs border be, the Brexiters were told that the border has to be somewhere because the UK decided to leave the customs union, not the EU chucking them out.
The moronic ignorance of Brexiters will never go away.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The negotiations for the Withdrawal Agreement are over, the UK and the EU have both agreed the terms , signed them and ratified them. To change them is not even possible.

If the UK want a trade deal with the EU , with the USA, with Australia or with Uncle Tom Cobley they will have to accept the terms of that agreement and of the partner they are dealing with. If they don't like it then just go away from the negotiations. Looks like this will be a recurring theme.

What majority the Tories have is completely irrelevant , a stronger hand to do what? What process is being delayed and by whom. Where should the customs border be, the Brexiters were told that the border has to be somewhere because the UK decided to leave the customs union, not the EU chucking them out.
The moronic ignorance of Brexiters will never go away.
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I almost thought you could debate property. Your last sentence shows that you don’t want to.

Resorting to insults just means anything you said previously is easy to dismiss as you have no credibility.

Well done.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I almost thought you could debate property. Your last sentence shows that you don’t want to.

Resorting to insults just means anything you said previously is easy to dismiss as you have no credibility.

Well done.
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I hadn't realised you were a Brexiter just a Tory so I wasn't actually referring to you .
But as I never get sensible answers from Brexiters what a surprise!
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I agree about people taking sides and sticking to them. This is one of the challenges, in that there’s still a proportion of people in the UK who want to frustrate and delay the process.

In fairness to the government, the two biggest issues for a generation have come at the same time.

The EU is united behind their negotiations, and in wanting to make it as difficult as possible for the UK. The UK is the opposite of United, and this clearly has made it more difficult. At least with a big majority, we have a stronger hand rather than the debacle of having the Tories and the DUP in bed together.
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That really helps of course. How long it lasts after a second wave of the pandemic and the UK leaving without a deal remains to be seen though as does Biden's love for the GFA post election when his big pharma backers smell a chance of making money selling US drugs into the NHS.

We will have to wait and see. Not much longer now though.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I hadn't realised you were a Brexiter just a Tory so I wasn't actually referring to you .
But as I never get sensible answers from Brexiters what a surprise!
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I didn’t realise we still went around labelling each other and making big assumptions about a yes/ no decision?

Or making assumption and generalisations about what type of person you are based on whether you choose one of three options at the ballot box?

No wonder some people can’t discuss the big topics sensibly.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The negotiations for the Withdrawal Agreement are over, the UK and the EU have both agreed the terms , signed them and ratified them. To change them is not even possible.

If the UK want a trade deal with the EU , with the USA, with Australia or with Uncle Tom Cobley they will have to accept the terms of that agreement and of the partner they are dealing with. If they don't like it then just go away from the negotiations. Looks like this will be a recurring theme.

What majority the Tories have is completely irrelevant , a stronger hand to do what? What process is being delayed and by whom. Where should the customs border be, the Brexiters were told that the border has to be somewhere because the UK decided to leave the customs union, not the EU chucking them out.
The moronic ignorance of Brexiters will never go away.
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Completely agree. Those I know who were in favour of leaving the EU continue to do so. And the illusion that they have been convinced of is so ingrained that only when the reality plays out will they come to understand their mistake.
But. They will never admit it.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I didn’t realise we still went around labelling each other and making big assumptions about a yes/ no decision?

Or making assumption and generalisations about what type of person you are based on whether you choose one of three options at the ballot box?

No wonder some people can’t discuss the big topics sensibly.
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Why not answer my questions , instead of getting touchy. Why does the UK think the EU will not be united in their approach, the problem is that they think other countries view the EU like the UK does.
 
Buster15 said:
Completely agree. Those I know who were in favour of leaving the EU continue to do so. And the illusion that they have been convinced of is so ingrained that only when the reality plays out will they come to understand their mistake.
But. They will never admit it.
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How can anyone think that Brexit can possibily be a success in any shape or form - what is this vision that so many still believe in , no-one after nearly five years can describe it and now they think the EU are going to punish them.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Why not answer my questions , instead of getting touchy. Why does the UK think the EU will not be united in their approach, the problem is that they think other countries view the EU like the UK does.
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As I said, I’m not going to debate with someone who just reverts to insults and stereotypes.

There are lots of other good posters on here.
 
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